The Secret History of America.

[lapsedgamer]

I am thinking about writing a fantasy/horror campaign game that takes place during the Revolutionary War, The Civil War and WWI. The idea was inspired by reading the Colonial Gothic RPG. I loved the concept, though the game mechanics are a little clunky. I also love the 1992 version of Last of the Mohicans, Tim Burton's Sleepy Hollow, and to a lesser extent The Patriot with Mel Gibson. This type of game seems like it would be fun to run and play in.

 

I then had a waking daydream about some other movies and stories I love. I loved both Glory and Gettysburg. I also though about some of Ambros Bierce's short stories I had read about the Civil War, and the Red Badge of Courage.

 

I then though about WWI and the beggining of the Pulp Age. Basically, I am imagining a game where the players adopt the role of people who are sorting out a complex mystery over decades. Information is passed down from generation to generation through secret societies like the Masons and the Knight Templar, or through family lines. Alternately, several different people can own the same tome or item as lynchpin. You would have several PCs throughout, or you could play someone who was very long-lived. Since I would include a lot standard occult tropes, there are a lot of options.

 

If I did this, I would have to acknowledge slavery, the Reconstruction Era and Jim Crow. As an African-American, I could be easily offended if a player took the wrong tone while we were talking about these topics. I know this about myself. I would like to say that all gamers of a certain age are mature and sensitive individuals, but I have had some very uncomfortable moments in games. Is this type of subject matter too volatile to be used for gaming fodder? How would you approach it?

[Lucius]

Re: The Secret History of America.

 

 

If I did this, I would have to acknowledge slavery, the Reconstruction Era and Jim Crow. As an African-American, I could be easily offended if a player took the wrong tone while we were talking about these topics. I know this about myself. I would like to say that all gamers of a certain age are mature and sensitive individuals, but I have had some very uncomfortable moments in games. Is this type of subject matter too volatile to be used for gaming fodder? How would you approach it?

 

 

Not necessarily.

 

But I would suggest only including players you know well and trust the reactions of. And talk about the issues first.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

What did you expect, a palindromedary?

[Ian Mackinder]

Re: The Secret History of America.

 

Sounds very cool. The 'National Treasure' movies (both of which I enjoyed) immediately come to mind as another possible source of inspiration. Much depends on the Players you can get involved - watch out for anyone with pronounced powergamer tendencies, needless to say.

 

On the whole multi-generational thing, I have had one interesting thought. I don't know the system you refer to, but assume that there is some kind of means by which Characters can develop their skills 'n' stats.

 

My thought is basically this. Allow Players the option of using accrued Experience Points for "current" Characters - or putting said XPs aside to be used for a future Character.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: The Secret History of America.

 

Sounds very cool. The 'National Treasure' movies (both of which I enjoyed) immediately come to mind as another possible source of inspiration. Much depends on the Players you can get involved - watch out for anyone with pronounced powergamer tendencies, needless to say.

 

On the whole multi-generational thing, I have had one interesting thought. I don't know the system you refer to, but assume that there is some kind of means by which Characters can develop their skills 'n' stats.

 

My thought is basically this. Allow Players the option of using accrued Experience Points for "current" Characters - or putting said XPs aside to be used for a future Character.

 

I liked the first National Treasure movie. That would make a nice high concept summary. "It's like National Treasure meets The X-Files at Bunker Hill/Shiloh/Little Big Top/San Juan Hill/The Marne.

 

That's a really good idea for the experience points as well. If did it in Hero System, I might say that you could pass on resource points, bases, and unique items to a future character, as long as you could make the connection work dramatically and logically.

 

As far as powergamers, I would probably say that all characters must be 75+75 in Hero terms, with an additional 30 or so "legacy" points based on the character's background. While I might allow a Dorian Gray type immortal, there wouldn't be any vampire PCs. I'm still just thinking out loud about it.

 

Also, this might not be well suited to Hero. I don't know.

[AlHazred]

Re: The Secret History of America.

 

As far as players playing the era, you have to set those ground rules at the beginning of the campaign. In my games, people have played characters who expressed prejudices current for that time, as we understand them. Are they ugly opinions? You betcha. But they were endemic at the time, and it's helpful to remember these things so we more appreciate our own time. It's never gratuitous, though.

 

Good luck. Sensitive games require mature players.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: The Secret History of America.

 

Sounds like an awesome campaign idea.

 

How was Colonial Gothic? Worth picking up? Care to write a review?

 

Slavery and its repercussions is a ticklish subject, all right. As I see it, most players would go one of two ways: either immerse themselves in the time to the point that their characters accept it as right and normal, or adopt a more modern opinion to the point that it becomes a distraction ("Why should we warn the President of Burr's conspiracy? Jefferson's a slave owner!") I kind of danced around the issue in my frontier fantasy setting by making slavery both less common and not racially based, but in a setting based more closely on the real world, downplaying it to this degree would be insulting (IMO) and would deprive the game of a source of intrigue and potential heroic action. I don't have any real advice here, but I'd be interested in seeing how you finally resolve the issue.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: The Secret History of America.

 

Read Cryptonomicon and the Baroque Cycle by Neal Stephenson. It's pretty much a multi-generational secret history ranging from the Baroque era to WW2 to "modern" times.

 

Crypto was written first, but for your purposes you should start w/ the Baroque Cycle since that is chronologically first.

[azato]

Re: The Secret History of America.

 

Apparently you think there is a risk of you becoming angry. Is it worth the headache and the potential bad feelings over this? Feelings strong enough to destroy friendships? I think you need to know your audience very well before treading on volatile ground.

 

While anybody would by angry/embarassed from people making crass comments about slavery, etc., you may need to ask yourself how you would feel if a player was to take a pro-south position for reasons other than slavery. (for example - Some people are against slavery BUT feel that the NORTH was violating the rights of the Southern states and that the war was not about slavery but about state's rights against the growing power a northern coalition banding together to use the Federal government to strengthen the north economically). So, if you are uncomfortable with any other position except a pro-North position then you will need to ensure that all players feel the same way.

 

 

This topic is probably on the same level as religion and politics. Each is a rich subject but a virtual minefield. Tread with caution my friend.

 

 

 

 

If I did this, I would have to acknowledge slavery, the Reconstruction Era and Jim Crow. As an African-American, I could be easily offended if a player took the wrong tone while we were talking about these topics. I know this about myself. I would like to say that all gamers of a certain age are mature and sensitive individuals, but I have had some very uncomfortable moments in games. Is this type of subject matter too volatile to be used for gaming fodder? How would you approach it?

[lapsedgamer]

Re: The Secret History of America.

 

Read Cryptonomicon and the Baroque Cycle by Neal Stephenson. It's pretty much a multi-generational secret history ranging from the Baroque era to WW2 to "modern" times.

 

Crypto was written first, but for your purposes you should start w/ the Baroque Cycle since that is chronologically first.

 

I cannot make it through any of Stephenson's recent work. I loved Snow Crash and Zodiac, but of late I feel he needs an editor to reign him in. Thanks for the suggestion, though.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: The Secret History of America.

 

Oh, thank Heavens; I thought I was the only person out there who couldn't get through recent Stephenson.

As for "secret history," it is my understanding that recent DNA studies suggest what was already pretty implied by the record. Native Americans east of the Mississippi integrated into American society pretty invisibly --at least from the outside. Andrew Jackson has the broad, flattened head of Catawba nobility. Not to say that he was a halfbreed Catawba Indian rather than Scoth-Irish as he claimed but the suspicion is there. Perhaps the clans of Cahokia (or more likely Kaskaskia) survive today, carrying on their old secret agenda....

[gewing]

Re: The Secret History of America.

 

I am thinking about writing a fantasy/horror campaign game that takes place during the Revolutionary War, The Civil War and WWI. The idea was inspired by reading the Colonial Gothic RPG. I loved the concept, though the game mechanics are a little clunky. I also love the 1992 version of Last of the Mohicans, Tim Burton's Sleepy Hollow, and to a lesser extent The Patriot with Mel Gibson. This type of game seems like it would be fun to run and play in.

 

I then had a waking daydream about some other movies and stories I love. I loved both Glory and Gettysburg. I also though about some of Ambros Bierce's short stories I had read about the Civil War, and the Red Badge of Courage.

 

I then though about WWI and the beggining of the Pulp Age. Basically, I am imagining a game where the players adopt the role of people who are sorting out a complex mystery over decades. Information is passed down from generation to generation through secret societies like the Masons and the Knight Templar, or through family lines. Alternately, several differnt people can own the same tome or item as lynchpin. You would have several PCs throuhgout, or you could play someone who was very long-lived. Since I would include a lot standard occult tropes, there are a lot of options.

 

If I did this, I would have to acknowledge slavery, the Reconstruction Era and Jim Crow. As an African-American, I could be easily offended if a player took the wrong tone while we were talking about these topics. I know this about myself. I would like to say that all gamers of a certain age are mature and sensitive individuals, but I have had some very uncomfortable moments in games. Is this type of subject matter too volatile to be used for gaming fodder? How would you approach it?

 

 

just a first thought:

 

Have you read Manly Wade Wellman's "John the Balladeer"/Silver John books or David Drake's homage "Old Nathan"???

 

Appalachian folklore come to life.

[Toadmaster]

Re: The Secret History of America.

 

I'd think the slavery & Jim Crow type issues would probably be best handled similar to Nazi-ism in WW2 games. Its there, you can't dismiss it, but it doesn't need to be an in your face issue either. For many these issues just were, not wrong or right its just how it was, not even something to consider.

 

I heard an interview with Charlie Daniels a while back. He grew up in the Jim Crow south and that is just how it was he didn't know anything else. Only when he got out of the south touring in music gigs, was he able to see there was any other way and that is when he realized things back at home were not right.

 

From a realistic perspective those issues do not need to even come into play, for many at the time it would be like your characters commenting about the weather, or they nice trees, it was just background. Not all northerners were shining examples of equality and not all southerners were rabid racists. So letting the issues cool on a back burner until you feel that your players can handle those themes in an adult way is not dismissing the issues. Obviously for some they were huge issues and offer great source for gaming if appropriate.

 

Sometimes because of what we now know and how culture has changed we tend to think people always had strong feelings about issues important to us today, just as in 100 years people may feel that everybody had an opinion on the environment or Iraq when in fact many never think about those issues.

 

Anyway just my opinion. I like my games to be fun, but what works with one group could be a nightmare with another. I'd be very uncomfortable running or even playing in an East Front WW2 game from the German side, it could be an awesome game or a miserable experience.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: The Secret History of America.

 

just a first thought:

 

Have you read Manly Wade Wellman's "John the Balladeer"/Silver John books or David Drake's homage "Old Nathan"???

 

Appalachian folklore come to life.

 

Those stories have been on my desired reading list for years. I read one in an anthology years ago and really enjoyed it. If I did this campaign, there would have to be a lot of wicthcraft, voodoo, hoodoo and folk magic floating around. The world would be subtly seasoned with zombies, hags, duppies, The New Jersey Devil and his ilk, completely unrealistic Masonic rituals, and Native American belief. Where does it end? America really is the melting pot for this kind of stuff. Every successive wave of immigration has brought dark horror to our shores.

 

I believe that downplaying many of the more unfortunate chapters in our history would problay make for a more enjoyable game in the long run. It's heavy stuff, and feelings can get hurt real fast.

[azato]

Re: The Secret History of America.

 

I got the Ken Burns video, THE WAR, from the library and was watching the first disc tonight while thinking about this thread. There is a portion about the interment of Americans on the West Coast who happened to be of Japanese descent. On one hand we have a nation acting in the way it best felt would make it safe during the war and on the other hand we violated the Bill of Rights for thousands of American citizens. So much for Habeas Corpus.

 

Here is what I have come up with....Being a Caucasian I don't know how I would have felt about the decision if I lived on the West coast at the time. I don't know if I would have had the moral clarity to see the wrong being done to fight it. I sit here tonight and hope that I would, but looking at the ease in which thousands of citizens were rounded up without much of a stir is rather disturbing.

 

Likewise, I do not know if living back in the days of the slavery if I would have had the moral clarity that I do now. I sit here hoping that I would have been part of the underground railroad or whatever. But I cannot say that I would have. We are so much a product of our times.

 

Furthermore I would like to think if I was transported back in time and space, I would be willing to risk the life and safety of my family and me to hide Jews from the Nazis. But I cannot say with certainty, given the potential threat that I could do that act for any extended period of time. I sure hope that I would.

 

But the point of playing these silly role playing games is that we can be heroes. That is what we really want to be. We want to at least have some sort of sensation that we are willing to risk life, limb and fortune to do the right thing. We want to stand up for the little guy against impossible odds.

 

When it comes to areas that are a bit touchy, I think the moral choice should be obvious. It should not be about the fine points of Constitutionality, or even how characters at that particular time period would have acted. It should be about saving lives and defeating evil. Beating up the Klan is a no-brainer. On the other hand, giving the characters the option of stopping or supporting John Brown may not be wise.

 

I think what you are attempting to do, if done right, may prove to be something very significant. Good luck and keep us posted.

[gewing]

Re: The Secret History of America.

 

Those stories have been on my desired reading list for years. I read one in an anthology years ago and really enjoyed it. If I did this campaign, there would have to be a lot of wicthcraft, voodoo, hoodoo and folk magic floating around. The world would be subtly seasoned with zombies, hags, duppies, The New Jersey Devil and his ilk, completely unrealistic Masonic rituals, and Native American belief. Where does it end? America really is the melting pot for this kind of stuff. Every successive wave of immigration has brought dark horror to our shores.

 

I believe that downplaying many of the more unfortunate chapters in our history would problay make for a more enjoyable game in the long run. It's heavy stuff, and feelings can get hurt real fast.

 

 

 

Any chance of you moving over to the East side of the State???

 

 

[The Suave]

Re: The Secret History of America.

 

Apparently you think there is a risk of you becoming angry. Is it worth the headache and the potential bad feelings over this? Feelings strong enough to destroy friendships? I think you need to know your audience very well before treading on volatile ground.

 

While anybody would by angry/embarassed from people making crass comments about slavery, etc., you may need to ask yourself how you would feel if a player was to take a pro-south position for reasons other than slavery. (for example - Some people are against slavery BUT feel that the NORTH was violating the rights of the Southern states and that the war was not about slavery but about state's rights against the growing power a northern coalition banding together to use the Federal government to strengthen the north economically). So, if you are uncomfortable with any other position except a pro-North position then you will need to ensure that all players feel the same way.

 

 

This topic is probably on the same level as religion and politics. Each is a rich subject but a virtual minefield. Tread with caution my friend.

 

I think that azato here has the right idea as far as the touchiness of the subject matter. Some of your player's characters might take positions that conflict in regards to your opinions, and even positions that might conflict with the opinions of the player playing the character. Handpick your players, discuss the subject matter and the characters' stand in regards to it and then don't punish your characters for roleplaying true.

[st barbara]

Re: The Secret History of America.

 

Oddly enough I just came back from seing "National Treasure : Book Of Secrets". Fun, like the first one, but in some ways TOO similar to it. Still enjoyed it however.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: The Secret History of America.

 

How was Colonial Gothic? Worth picking up? Care to write a review?

 

Sorry. I kind of glossed over this part of your post. I didn't mean to seem rude. I'm not really comfortable trying to give a formal review, but I'll tell you what I can as if we were talking about it over a beer.

 

I bought my copy as a PDF download for about $10.00 just because I liked the sound of the premise. It's a very original concept for gaming. After reading through it once, my opinion is that there is just enough there to whet your appetite and get your imagination going. The idea is solid and the basic information needed to play are there. However, it would take some work for the GM to flesh it all out and give the game heft.

 

The 12 Degree universal role playing system they present is very rules light, so again the GM would have to be in his/her toes to keep the game running smoothly. The mechanics are, IMO, little clunky. It's basically the standard opposed task roll thing. It don't think it would be to hard to port the entire thing into Hero.

 

As far as the look and quality of the material, there was nothing in the presentation that made me want to spend extra for a hard copy. It had the average number of typos and minor errors that you would expect from a small gaming company.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: The Secret History of America.

 

Any chance of you moving over to the East side of the State???

 

 

 

Thanks for the invite. Unfortunately, I am stuck where I am by virtue of my job and my mortgage.

[gewing]

Re: The Secret History of America.

 

Thanks for the invite. Unfortunately' date=' I am stuck where I am by virtue of my job and my mortgage.[/quote']

 

 

 

I'm in the same boat over here!

[Captain Obvious]

Re: The Secret History of America.

 

I'm in the same boat over here!

 

That's a pretty long boat!

[casualplayer]

Re: The Secret History of America.

 

Have you read the Alvin Maker series by Orson Scott Card? Alvin and his sidekick Arthur Stuart occasionally hit snags because of Arthur's color. Sometimes they go along to get along and sometimes they decide enough is enough. It's a fine line to tread.

 

It's a hard subject to tackle and it's going to prompt some language that almost can't help but offend. I don't think I've ever had a group that could manage it without being so uneasy that they wouldn't be having fun.

[gewing]

Re: The Secret History of America.

 

That's a pretty long boat!

 

 

well, it doesn't take THAT much MegaScale to do it!

[lapsedgamer]

Re: The Secret History of America.

 

Have you read the Alvin Maker series by Orson Scott Card? Alvin and his sidekick Arthur Stuart occasionally hit snags because of Arthur's color. Sometimes they go along to get along and sometimes they decide enough is enough. It's a fine line to tread.

 

It's a hard subject to tackle and it's going to prompt some language that almost can't help but offend. I don't think I've ever had a group that could manage it without being so uneasy that they wouldn't be having fun.

 

The Alvin Maker series looks good. I have never heard of it, now I'm intrigued. And, yeah, it's a topic that could literally cause fistfights if people aren't mature. I am not sure how it would have played in some of the groups I was in. If I could somehow get all the top players from every group I've been in in my life at one table it could work.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: The Secret History of America.

 

If I could somehow get all the top players from every group I've been in in my life at one table it could work.

 

And this is why we need that roleplayers' retirement home that gets mentioned every now and then.