Dark Elves: Compelling?

[jimmyjimjam]

What are some versions of the "Dark Elf" motif that are particularly compelling in fantasy gaming or fiction? Beyond that of the angsty golden hearted Dark Elf hero, that is.

[Spence]

Re: Dark Elves: Compelling?

 

I never thought of "elves" of any kind being "compelling".

 

 

More like a fungus at the gym. No matter what they do, it just keeps showing up.

[Ocelot]

Re: Dark Elves: Compelling?

 

I never thought of "elves" of any kind being "compelling".

 

 

More like a fungus at the gym. No matter what they do, it just keeps showing up.

 

Repped.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Dark Elves: Compelling?

 

Eh... it isn't the 'race' that's compelling; it's the backstory. It's the writing that does it, not the race itself.

[Theron]

Re: Dark Elves: Compelling?

 

Erikson's Tiste Andii from the Malazan novels are, to my mind, one of the better takes on something dark and elf-like.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Dark Elves: Compelling?

 

The Dragonbone Chair series had some interesting material along these lines IIRC.

[Spence]

Re: Dark Elves: Compelling?

 

Erikson's Tiste Andii from the Malazan novels are' date=' to my mind, one of the better takes on something dark and elf-like.[/quote']

 

How about the Tiste Edur?

[The Monster]

Re: Dark Elves: Compelling?

 

I never thought of "elves" of any kind being "compelling".

 

 

More like a fungus at the gym. No matter what they do, it just keeps showing up.

 

Agreed (and repped) - I feel the same way about "dark" anything.

"Dark elves" (as a player race) have always seemed to me to be an excuse for munchkins to have their own favorite race. The only thing I've ver felt "compelling" about dark elves is the compulsion to slap them and their player.

Attitude? Me? Naah.

[Curufea]

The only Dark Elf I've ever liked in fiction was Eöl. Every other seems to be a stereotype.

The only Dark Elves I've liked in gaming are the ones in Warhammer. They not only have an interesting culture, they are actually pale skinned. The stupidity of dark skinned Dark Elves is a deal breaker.

[LoresLost]

Re: Dark Elves: Compelling?

 

What are some versions of the "Dark Elf" motif that are particularly compelling in fantasy gaming or fiction? Beyond that of the angsty golden hearted Dark Elf hero' date=' that is.[/quote']

 

Well looking at this from other sources then Forgotten Realms. 'Dark Elves (Svartálfar) in Norse Myth where short stout black skin beings who worked the forges at the root of the world tree (most DnD types would call them Dwarfs).

 

In Tolkien's Middle Earth, the 'Dark Elves' are any elf who did not see the two trees in Valinor... Legolas is a Dark Elf according to some I have read. (I can only find a reference to Eol as a Dark Elf in the Simerillian and he is not evil, but does love to work metals and use a forge, he is called a Dwarf friend.

 

So here are non-DnD Dark Elves. Compelling, Well the Norse and Tolkien's readers found them compelling.

[Curufea]

Re: Dark Elves: Compelling?

 

Well looking at this from other sources then Forgotten Realms. 'Dark Elves (Svartálfar) in Norse Myth where short stout black skin beings who worked the forges at the root of the world tree (most DnD types would call them Dwarfs).

 

In Tolkien's Middle Earth, the 'Dark Elves' are any elf who did not see the two trees in Valinor... Legolas is a Dark Elf according to some I have read. (I can only find a reference to Eol as a Dark Elf in the Simerillian and he is not evil, but does love to work metals and use a forge, he is called a Dwarf friend.

 

So here are non-DnD Dark Elves. Compelling, Well the Norse and Tolkien's readers found them compelling.

 

Yep - with you there.

 

The Sindarin, broadly speaking, are all Dark Elves. i.e. all the Wood Elves you meet in the Hobbit, and Lord of the rings (including Legolas). The only named characters who aren't Dark Elves are Galadriel, Celeborn, Glorfindel, Haldir, Elrond and Arwen.

[Checkmate]

Re: Dark Elves: Compelling?

 

The stupidity of dark skinned Dark Elves is a deal breaker.

Why? Bats live their lives in caves they have dark skin. If an African American man was raised in a cave, I'd bet his skin would also stay dark, but let's forget about that for a minute: You're okay with wizards and warriors going out and destroying flying dragons, it's the dark skin humanoids in a light less environment that ruins the believability?

[Curufea]

Re: Dark Elves: Compelling?

 

Why? Bats live their lives in caves they have dark skin. If an African American man was raised in a cave' date=' I'd bet his skin would also stay dark, but let's forget about that for a minute: You're okay with wizards and warriors going out and destroying flying dragons, it's the dark skin humanoids in a light less environment that ruins the believability?[/quote']

 

Yep. It says "here is a stereotype, come revel in evil things being black".

 

Strangely enough, animals with fur don't have the same kinds of melanin in their skin as humans and humanoids do. Weird huh? I guess we should all expect humanoids to be coloured the same as rodents?

 

So basically, my Sea Elves and Wood Elves are dark skinned. The High Elves, and Dark Elves are pale skinned. I just have this thing about skin being some kind of protection of the organs from the sun - I'm weird that way.

 

I suppose, I could always choose not to create my own world setting, universe, mythology and decide how things work, how magic works in my world and how the races evolved. Yeah - why don't I copy someone else's ideas lock, stock and barrel? Just because of some reason or other (currently it escapes my reasoning as to why someone would want black Dark elves, just like everyone else has, but I'm sure there must be compelling reasons of some sort).

 

I could even put them in caves as well. That'd be original.

 

But to sum up - my Dark Elves aren't black because it's silly.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Dark Elves: Compelling?

 

Yep - with you there.

 

The Sindarin, broadly speaking, are all Dark Elves. i.e. all the Wood Elves you meet in the Hobbit, and Lord of the rings (including Legolas). The only named characters who aren't Dark Elves are Galadriel, Celeborn, Glorfindel, Haldir, Elrond and Arwen.

Arwen was old enough to have seen the light from the Trees?

 

TB

[Curufea]

Re: Dark Elves: Compelling?

 

Arwen was old enough to have seen the light from the Trees?

 

TB

 

No but she is descended of a Noldor. However it seems that in general she's regarded as a human-

 

http://www.glyphweb.com/ARDA/a/arwen.html

 

The Noldor are "High Elves". The Sindarin are "Dark Elves" or more commonly in D&Dspeak "Wood Elves" Although the smaller branch of Silvan is probably closer - I don't have a D&Dspeak equivalent for Grey Elves.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Dark Elves: Compelling?

 

No but she is descended of a Noldor. However it seems that in general she's regarded as a human-

She didn't become "human" until after she married Aragorn and chose to become mortal.

 

TB

[Curufea]

Re: Dark Elves: Compelling?

 

Yeah, race is a bit more than genetics in the Tolkein setting. Likewise in my setting as well - in the case of the Elves, their culture determines their sub-race. It's their beliefs, or possibly their ideals, that determine if they are Wood/High/Sea or Dark. It's all tied in with the magic in my setting and Elves being a highly magical race. It's also the main reason why magical creatures tend to stay in balkanised/ghettoised areas - to stay away from humanity - which has a very strong organised belief system (it taints magic use of other belief systems).

[drunkonduty]

Re: Dark Elves: Compelling?

 

Oh the Tolkien nerd in me must speak up or burst.

 

Celeborn, Arwen and Elrond are technically "Dark Elves" as they never saw the light of the Two Trees. Glorfindel and Galadriel are both Light Elves for sure. I'm not sure about Haldir. He is a Noldor but I'm not sure he was born in Valinor.

 

Eol is referred to as "Dark Elf" by Thingol as a perjorative, but it would seem he meant it in moral terms. ie: Eol was a bit of a bastard. Incidentally Thingol was the only non-Noldor Elf in Middle Earth to be accounted as a Light Elf because he did see the Two Trees (before coming back to Middle Earth.)

 

Sorry for the nerdgasm. Please go about your business.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Dark Elves: Compelling?

 

So basically, my Sea Elves and Wood Elves are dark skinned. The High Elves, and Dark Elves are pale skinned. I just have this thing about skin being some kind of protection of the organs from the sun - I'm weird that way.

 

I suppose, I could always choose not to create my own world setting, universe, mythology and decide how things work, how magic works in my world and how the races evolved. Yeah - why don't I copy someone else's ideas lock, stock and barrel? Just because of some reason or other (currently it escapes my reasoning as to why someone would want black Dark elves, just like everyone else has, but I'm sure there must be compelling reasons of some sort).

 

I have Dark Elves in my homebrew world. Dark brown skin and white hair. I find it to be a very attractive look.

 

I could even put them in caves as well. That'd be original.

 

Of course, mine live in the desert, and it's exposure to the sun that gives them that coloration. When the first Dark Elves moved to the desert way back in the First Days, the harsh sun tanned their skin and bleached their hair.

 

But to sum up - my Dark Elves aren't black because it's silly.

 

Well, dead black skin would be. But not milk chocolate brown. We have people with skin like that in OUR world.

[Maur]

Re: Dark Elves: Compelling?

 

Well' date=' dead black skin would be. But not milk chocolate brown. We have people with skin like that in OUR world.[/quote']

 

I've seen a few people with skin dark enough to actually be black. So, while white, yellow and brown are the three major ones, they aren't the only colors, heheh.

[Korvar]

Re: Dark Elves: Compelling?

 

So basically' date=' my Sea Elves and Wood Elves are dark skinned. The High Elves, and Dark Elves are pale skinned. I just have this thing about skin being some kind of protection of the organs from the sun - I'm weird that way.[/quote']

 

Should I ever run my own setting again, all Elves will be pale, regardless of where they are - the idea being they're not entirely connected to the physical world. Thus, the sun doesn't affect them the way it does us humans.

 

I think I might have Dark Elves, although they wouldn't necessarily be Evil, just underground. But this is largely due the the artwork of the first Drow I ever saw, which basically made them look blue-black and shiny - almost as if they were carved from coal. That and the white hair just looked cool (in my opinion).

 

One of the nicer versions of the "dark" elf was in Mystara, the Basic D&D world. There, the "Shadow" elves lived underground and had their evil agenda - and were dead white, like a great many cave-dwelling creatures.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Dark Elves: Compelling?

 

Any race that isn't a Monoculture can be compelling.

 

Which pretty much leaves out any version of DnD Races out there.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Dark Elves: Compelling?

 

A race that's a monoculture can be compelling, IF being a monoculture is unusual in that world. If humans are the only race that's NOT a monoculture, that's just lazy world-building.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Dark Elves: Compelling?

 

... the angsty golden hearted Dark Elf hero...

 

I thought that was the whole point?

[eternal_sage]

Re: Dark Elves: Compelling?

 

um, maybe, what is your take on them? you don't really need them to do anything, and, as has been stated, most prepublished versions are pretty lame. drow = silly, imho. if you have some unique new twist, then maybe i'm interested, but don't count on it. Drizz't is dumb enough to taint just about anything, so it'd better be good, though.