ShadowrunHero game?

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: ShadowrunHero game?

 

Yes, magic trumps everything if it gets to go first; magic tends NOT to go first. That's the Street Samurai's playground. And yes, with the right combination of spells and sustaining foci you can be the mystic Street Sam from hell, but then you're vulnerable to the first watcher spirit that comes along and wants to kick the crap out of your sustaining foci. Lots of money down the drain.

 

The most powerful character archetype in SR is the decker; she controls information. If she doesn't like you, then your enemies start getting precise information on your location, and you're either dead or in prison. However, as with anything, the 'most powerful character' is the one who strikes first at your weakness.

 

That was always my character, I'm glad to say. Suki was second at everything except for magic (which she didn't have) -- but the first thing she did when meeting ANY of the other characters was figuring out how she'd take them out if push ever came to shove. Twelve other characters, mages and shamans and super-tough trolls and hot shit deckers and cutting-edge riggers and gun-bunnies and sword-swinging adepts, any one of which could beat her if she met them on their ground ... and she was the most feared character in the group.

 

It may have had to do with the first run they went on. Thirty people, PC mages and adepts and gunbunnies and a bunch of NPC mercs, hitting the front end of a compound of toxic shapeshifters. She and three other people (one PC and two mercs) go over the back wall. Massive nastiness happening out front, shapeshifters regenerating, etc. Suki had a dikoted katana in one hand and a light pistol with DMSO/Gamma-Scopalomine capsule rounds. Out of the 35 shapeshifters and 5 shapeshifter-mages there, she eliminated 15 and 3 without taking a single wound of her own. Then, when almost EVERYONE else got themselves a D wound downstairs, she put the Big Bad Guy at S + 3 Stun (gotta love Gamma-Scopalomine) with two fast shots and caused him to rabbit.

 

*sighs* I miss that game....

[eternal_sage]

Re: ShadowrunHero game?

 

i disagree (although i can't remember much about 3rd) in 4th at least, the ONLY way to get that 4th initiative pass was magic. and possibly the 3rd too, i can't remember, its been a little while since i looked at those exact rules.

[Maur]

Re: ShadowrunHero game?

 

Hmm... 3rd Ed wasn't hard for heavily cybered to get initiative rolls > 30 with the move-by-wire system (beta or delta grade) plus reaction enhancers.

 

31, 21, 11, 1 <-- 4 actions in a round.

 

2nd Ed probably came close with the use of Wired Reflexes 3 and a few other things.

 

I haven't delved into 4th Ed (got the books, just busy with HERO and other real world stuff) to see all the changes to cyber/magic.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: ShadowrunHero game?

 

2nd and 3rd editions were essentially the same; 4th edition REQUIRED you to have reflex enhancers (whether cyber, bio, or mystic) in order to get additional actions. Even if you're the fastest natural guy on the block, you still only get one action, and the slow-assed punk with idiot-grade boosted reflexes gets two. SR4 mostly sucks, IMO. A very few good ideas, a very many bad ones.

 

In 4th, if you have any sort of Level 3 reflex enhancer, you get 1 + 3 = 4 actions. In SR 2 & 3, it goes off your initiative -- every 10 or fraction thereof nets 1 action. Suki (with a 10 Reaction before initiative), barring injury, was guaranteed 2 actions, though she only had 1 die. But she was pretty near to maxed out on Reaction. Absolute max is a temporarily boosted 32 + 5d6 (average 49), with a permanent max of 22 + 5d6 (average 39). Five and six actions (all within 3 seconds, remember) are possible, but all the cyberware necessary for this costs in the range of ¥40 million, plus surgical costs, and requires a Delta-grade clinic.

 

Good luck.

 

Your typical top-end street samurai, though, will have an INT of 5, QKN of 9, and therefore a base Reaction of 7. Wired Reflexes 3 gives +6 + 3d6, therefore 13 + 4d6 for initiative -- averaging 27, or 3 actions, and sometimes getting 4. Q.E.D.

[mallet]

Re: ShadowrunHero game?

 

All of which is why I want to switch to the Hero System rule for the campaign.

[Nolgroth]

Re: ShadowrunHero game?

 

So basically, you have to come up with special rules for Cyberware, Decking, Rigging and Magic. Combat would be HERO combat and I would suggest Dark Champions as your poison of choice there. Excellent work in that.

 

Cyberware is generally a special effect excuse. Wired Reflexes? Extra Speed and/or Lightning Reflexes. Muscle Augmentation? Extra Strength. I would possible place some rule like Physical Manifestation or something to represent that the Cyberware can be damaged.

 

Decking is hard for me. Sounds like some limited form of EDM, Leave Body Behind with a whole slew of "super powers" to represent "programs."

 

Rigging would be easy. Extra speed and/or Lightning Reflexes with Driving Only/Only on rigged vehicles plus some Skill Levels in Combat driving.

 

Magic is the tough one. Spells are easy. The only problem I would see is trying to duplicate the Combat spells special effect which would likely be bought as some sort of AVLD since they bypass armor and rely on the target's physical attributes + Magical Defense. Damaging manipulations would be straight damage effects. The real problem would fall back on Conjuration. Spirits and Astral Projection would be the expensive thing, points-wise.

 

These are just initial thoughts and need mucho refinement.

[eternal_sage]

Re: ShadowrunHero game?

 

2nd and 3rd editions were essentially the same; 4th edition REQUIRED you to have reflex enhancers (whether cyber, bio, or mystic) in order to get additional actions. Even if you're the fastest natural guy on the block, you still only get one action, and the slow-assed punk with idiot-grade boosted reflexes gets two. SR4 mostly sucks, IMO. A very few good ideas, a very many bad ones.

 

In 4th, if you have any sort of Level 3 reflex enhancer, you get 1 + 3 = 4 actions. In SR 2 & 3, it goes off your initiative -- every 10 or fraction thereof nets 1 action. Suki (with a 10 Reaction before initiative), barring injury, was guaranteed 2 actions, though she only had 1 die. But she was pretty near to maxed out on Reaction. Absolute max is a temporarily boosted 32 + 5d6 (average 49), with a permanent max of 22 + 5d6 (average 39). Five and six actions (all within 3 seconds, remember) are possible, but all the cyberware necessary for this costs in the range of ¥40 million, plus surgical costs, and requires a Delta-grade clinic.

 

Good luck.

 

Your typical top-end street samurai, though, will have an INT of 5, QKN of 9, and therefore a base Reaction of 7. Wired Reflexes 3 gives +6 + 3d6, therefore 13 + 4d6 for initiative -- averaging 27, or 3 actions, and sometimes getting 4. Q.E.D.

 

i like the max of 4, but i agree that the set actions can seem sort of wierd. i also think that non-cybered people being able to go more than once in a round is a bit outrageous. i mean, maybe twice for some extreme cases, but personally, that would be ard to come by. just my opinion, mind you, but still.

 

as far as the action running in HERO is concerned, i'd definately go with Dark Champions as your base (as it has pretty much half the non-cyber gear you need) with the rest just being powers with lims to reflect hacking, cyberware, or magic. i think it would be pretty easy to do with some work.

[Nagus Pantojan]

Re: ShadowrunHero game?

 

I don't know about 4th ed. sucking in shadow run. I played 4th ed. for several years and had alot of fun with it. Hell, I even play tested a half dozen of the rule books for the company and proofed for Mike when FASA was the owners.

 

As to what happens when your money piles up in a shadow run game. If money is stacking up the GM is not doing as he should. I played an Adept for 4 years playing every week and never could save up enough money for a level 1 weapon focus, let alone the kind of money a street sam would need for beta grade cyber ware and clonal bioware.

 

So much is in the execution of the campaign. As someone who has played both systems alot(I know I do not post alot, however I have been playing both systems since the 80's). I would use the dark champions equipment pool system as previously listed. It will get you the closest to the feel of the shadows without knee caping the mage.

 

Happy gaming dude.

[Susano]

Re: ShadowrunHero game?

 

If you're going to run Shadowrun for Hero, I suggest picking up the Kazei 5 PDF. it has cyber, some decking rules, armor, guns, vehicles. All that sort of thing. 2nd Edition K5 will be even better, but this is what's out now.

[Maur]

Re: ShadowrunHero game?

 

I don't know about 4th ed. sucking in shadow run. I played 4th ed. for several years and had a lot of fun with it. Hell' date=' I even play tested a half dozen of the rule books for the company and proofed for Mike when FASA was the owners.[/quote']

 

4th ed was released in '05. So it has only been out for a couple of years. 3rd was released in '98.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: ShadowrunHero game?

 

So basically' date=' you have to come up with special rules for Cyberware, Decking, Rigging and Magic. Combat would be HERO combat and I would suggest [i']Dark Champions[/i] as your poison of choice there. Excellent work in that.

 

Probably a good idea. You also need to remember that what happens in the EDM locations -- i.e. astral forms and within the Matrix -- needs to be timed functionally simultaneous to physical combat. But with HERO system, there shouldn't really be much of a problem.

 

Cyberware is generally a special effect excuse. Wired Reflexes? Extra Speed and/or Lightning Reflexes. Muscle Augmentation? Extra Strength. I would possible place some rule like Physical Manifestation or something to represent that the Cyberware can be damaged.

 

Uh ...

 

This is where 'Restrainable, Only With Things Other Than Grabs (-1/4)' comes in. Nice and easy. Unless it's visible, like a cyberarm, at which point you can put on OIF or some such.

 

Decking is hard for me. Sounds like some limited form of EDM' date=' Leave Body Behind with a whole slew of "super powers" to represent "programs."[/quote']

 

More or less correct. The best function is probably a MultiForm ('Matrix Form') linked to an EDM that leaves the body behind.

 

Rigging would be easy. Extra speed and/or Lightning Reflexes with Driving Only/Only on rigged vehicles plus some Skill Levels in Combat driving.

 

... plus Restrainable (it is, after all, cyberware), and controlling drones, and ... yeah. Might be a bit more complex than just a couple of attribute add-ons. Functionally, Machine-based Telepathy/Mind Control might be the way to go.

 

Magic is the tough one. Spells are easy. The only problem I would see is trying to duplicate the Combat spells special effect which would likely be bought as some sort of AVLD since they bypass armor and rely on the target's physical attributes + Magical Defense. Damaging manipulations would be straight damage effects. The real problem would fall back on Conjuration. Spirits and Astral Projection would be the expensive thing' date=' points-wise.[/quote']

 

Magic is the tough one? Yeesh. Physical spells are going to be the HERO equivalents; mana spells will need to be built either AVLD or, better, just Based on Ego vs. Mental Defense. Normals, generally, don't have Mental Defense, which means they bite the big one. And if you want it to kill, well, Does Body as well.

 

Spirits get to be Summoned, while Astral Projection is essentially an EDM, leaves body behind -- unless it's wandering around the 'real world', then it gets to be a combined invisibility, flight, and desol. Expensive? Yes. But then, that's what a magic VPP is for.

 

 

I don't know about 4th ed. sucking in shadow run. I played 4th ed. for several years and had a lot of fun with it. Hell' date=' I even play tested a half dozen of the rule books for the company and proofed for Mike when FASA was the owners.[/quote']

 

Yyyyeah. There are only two 4th edition supplements out; I'm sure you're either trying to BS us, or else you're thinking 3rd edition.

 

Going back to the equipment pool -- unless you're going to give magic gizmos to the mage, shaman, and adept in that pool, you're still screwing them over. Make everyone pay for points, but let them buy VPPs -- for guns, for vehicles, for spells, for cyberdecks. Then you'll have a balanced campaign.

[Maur]

Re: ShadowrunHero game?

 

I have 6 supplements for 4th Ed... 7th will be Arsenal due out in March.

[Nolgroth]

Re: ShadowrunHero game?

 

This is where 'Restrainable' date=' Only With Things Other Than Grabs (-1/4)' comes in. Nice and easy. Unless it's visible, like a cyberarm, at which point you can put on OIF or some such.[/quote']Does Restrainable also cover the fact that Cyberware can be damaged?

 

More or less correct. The best function is probably a MultiForm ('Matrix Form') linked to an EDM that leaves the body behind.

Multiform or Duplication. Duplication sounds better to me, but YMMV.

 

... plus Restrainable (it is, after all, cyberware), and controlling drones, and ... yeah. Might be a bit more complex than just a couple of attribute add-ons. Functionally, Machine-based Telepathy/Mind Control might be the way to go.

Drones I would define as equipment built with the Automaton rules. You really don't need too much in the way of rules for the "Captain's chair" mode. When the Rigger takes direct control is where it gets a little tough, as the drone then gets the Rigger's bonuses to initiative.

 

Magic is the tough one? Yeesh. Physical spells are going to be the HERO equivalents; mana spells will need to be built either AVLD or, better, just Based on Ego vs. Mental Defense. Normals, generally, don't have Mental Defense, which means they bite the big one. And if you want it to kill, well, Does Body as well.

Combat spells of both types essentially bypass any external armor so would be AVLDs. Spells which do Lethal damage would have the Does Body Advantage, while the Stunball's and such would be normal damage. I'm probably getting to literal in my translation, but once you get into Does Body, the typical person has no defense at all. At least in Shadowrun, they get the equivalent to a Skill vs. Skill roll to resist some of the damage

 

Spirits get to be Summoned, while Astral Projection is essentially an EDM, leaves body behind -- unless it's wandering around the 'real world', then it gets to be a combined invisibility, flight, and desol. Expensive? Yes. But then, that's what a magic VPP is for.

VPP is a way, but even then, it has to be large enough for the most expensive power to fit in it. And then we start running into Matrix VPPs and Rigging VPPs and Adept VPPs. I dunno, the more I start to think about it, the more Shadowrun could be defined as a low-powered supers game.

 

I think I'll crunch some numbers and throw something back out later. See what I come up with. Thanks for the response by the way. Your ideas have merit and I would like to explore the concept of conversion myself.

[Susano]

Re: ShadowrunHero game?

 

K5 2.0 goes in depth on building and breaking cyberware. Of course, that's not much of a help right now, but I hope to have it read by this time next year.

[eternal_sage]

Re: ShadowrunHero game?

 

SR 4th

 

Supplements

-------------

Street Magic

Runner Havens

Augmentation

Corperate Enclaves

Arsenal*

 

Adventures

-----------

Emergence

On The Run

[Savinien]

Re: ShadowrunHero game?

 

Dust Raven has the Cyber Hero PDF out there.

 

Something like 150 pages of goodness.

[robertep]

Re: ShadowrunHero game?

 

SR 4th

 

Supplements

-------------

Street Magic

Runner Havens

Augmentation

Corperate Enclaves

Arsenal*

 

Adventures

-----------

Emergence

On The Run

Yes that is correct and Arsenal is out so you can remove the Astrix if that was it's purpose :-)

[Opal]

Re: ShadowrunHero game?

 

I've played in a Shadowrun Game using Mage: the Ascension rules (of all things) and it worked quite smoothly.

 

I haven't actually played in one for Hero, though I did get as far as designing a character - along the lines of a 'decker' for something similar. Decking was handled with X-D move to 'cyberspace' and a multiform in that environment, both 'left body behind.'

 

 

I'd say use the setting, but don't try to simulate the bias in the mechanics. You can do that - I've seen D&D simulated to the point that armor was bought as DCV levels, and all KAs were Transformations with stun multipliers reversible via Resurrection - and it's amusing, but a campaign might be better off just letting the players run with the idea of Magic + Cyberpunk. Set a few parameter - like whether cyberspace will be a dimension, a form of clairsentience, or just a matter of some skill rolls - and decide if you want any gear to be indendent, but otherwise just let the player's run with the basic concept.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: ShadowrunHero game?

 

I've played in a Shadowrun Game using Mage: the Ascension rules (of all things) and it worked quite smoothly.

 

Not too surprising given that M:tA is 90% similar to Shadowrun anyway.

[Nolgroth]

Re: ShadowrunHero game?

 

There comes a point where you have to ask yourself "Why am I translating this? I could just play (game) instead. That's where I went with Shadowrun.

 

At this point, I wouldn't even try to "convert" Shadowrun. I spent like six hours playing with the magic and I just don't think it is worth the effort. I'd rather just play Shadowrun. In trying the conversion, I remember now just why I like the Shadowrun rules so much (active defense vs. passive defense). Indeed, if I were ever to change anything about my space opera game, it would be to convert it over to Shadowrun rules.

 

If I were to do a Cyberpunk Fantasy Dystopia game, I would start with a Dark Champions game, layer on some Fantasy HERO, and then build some sort of matrix rules using Duplication. Cyberware, using the Restrainable limitation can be damaged under the Impairing/Disabling wounds rules (at least that is how I read it). There you have it. You're basically done.

[mallet]

Re: ShadowrunHero game?

 

There comes a point where you have to ask yourself "Why am I translating this? I could just play (game) instead. That's where I went with Shadowrun.

 

At this point, I wouldn't even try to "convert" Shadowrun. I spent like six hours playing with the magic and I just don't think it is worth the effort. I'd rather just play Shadowrun. In trying the conversion, I remember now just why I like the Shadowrun rules so much (active defense vs. passive defense). Indeed, if I were ever to change anything about my space opera game, it would be to convert it over to Shadowrun rules.

 

 

This is where we differ. I've been playing Shadowrun 4 for the last couple of years and I started off enjoying the rules, but now I've gotten tired of them and their weakness are starting to annoy me.

 

Rolling 18d6 to attack? No thanks.

No hit locations? No thanks.

Stats and skills that basically only go between 1-6? No thanks.

Very limited skills descriptions? No thanks.

Broken Magic system? No thanks.

 

basically I find the Shadowrun 4 rules to generic and not gritty enough, or detailed enough, to run a "cyber game". I'm a big fan of "skill heavy" games and with the Ultimate Skill book out, that makes the Hero System tops in my book. Also the martial arts rules, hit locations, etc... all lend themselves to capturing the setting & feel much better then the actual Shadowrun rules.

 

Now, that said, I can't drift to far away from the basic Shadowrun principles otherwise my players won't be happy (most of them are also long time Shadowrun players).

 

So I am going to keep Cyberware, bioware, etc... based off of the Shadowrun books, no building your own. Also cyber, etc... will cost money, not CP's (especially since small, common pieces of cyber can end up costing a lot of CP's, while deadly & rare stuff can cost almost nothing).

 

I will probably make being awakened a talent costing a certain number of CP's at chargen and then have spells cost a set number of cp's to learn after that.

 

Money, at Chargen, will also cost a certain number of CP's and then after that it will have to be earned (no trading CP's for cash).

 

This setup will allow us to mimic the shadowrun chargen system with Hero and keep the Shadowrun settings "balance" (which, to say, not very balanced)

[Nolgroth]

Re: ShadowrunHero game?

 

This is where we differ. I've been playing Shadowrun 4 for the last couple of years and I started off enjoying the rules' date=' but now I've gotten tired of them and their weakness are starting to annoy me. [/quote']Not played 4th Edition. What I read did not impress me.

 

Rolling 18d6 to attack? No thanks.

Must be an artifact of 4th Edition. I never rolled more than 9-10 dice. I also play in a virtual environment (either OpenRPG or RPTools) so the number of dice is not an issue.

No hit locations? No thanks.

Easy enough to add, but I'll give that one to you.

Stats and skills that basically only go between 1-6? No thanks.

As opposed to HERO where you may have larger numbers but they mean less. Each point of that 1-6 attribute means something. In HERO you get the breakpoint at every 5 points.

Very limited skills descriptions? No thanks.

I'll give you that one too. A good understanding of what the skills mean is important and vague descriptions are a bane to smooth play.

Broken Magic system? No thanks.

I have never seen the magic system as inherently broke. Again maybe a factor of 4th edition. I saw lots of potential for the magic system to be abused, but as I see it, the GM and players would pretty much have to work at that.

 

Now I am not dissing the HERO System. I love it. You can do something like Shadowrun, but to play Shadowrun in HERO seems pretty pointless to me. So maybe by taking away the label Shadowrun and just defining it as some sort of Dystopian Future Urban Magic setting, you can approach the conversion without being limited by what is Shadowrun.

 

basically I find the Shadowrun 4 rules to generic and not gritty enough, or detailed enough, to run a "cyber game". I'm a big fan of "skill heavy" games and with the Ultimate Skill book out, that makes the Hero System tops in my book. Also the martial arts rules, hit locations, etc... all lend themselves to capturing the setting & feel much better then the actual Shadowrun rules.

HERO definitely fits the bill for a detailed Skills system.

 

Now, that said, I can't drift to far away from the basic Shadowrun principles otherwise my players won't be happy (most of them are also long time Shadowrun players).

 

(snippage)

Sounds like you have a plan. It would be interesting to see what you come up with. I like Shadowun (obviously more than you ) but I also like HERO. It would be fun to see what you can do with it.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: ShadowrunHero game?

 

Again, 4th Edition is, in many many ways, a broken system; this is because it's mainly an entirely new system. A few philosophies were brought over from SR 1-3, but they revamped everything. In fact, the world's greatest pistoleer, on average, will NOT kill a normal person looking down the barrel of the gun from one real foot away; that's just the way the game design winds up working, and something that Squall pointed out to them at GenCon. To which they blinked and said, 'Huh. Wow. We didn't know that.'

 

...

 

Anyhow. Take a few ideas from SR4 -- the skills and skill groups, for example, are good, as compared to SR3's needing 56 skills to use/fire the most common weapons in the world, while other sections (computers, sorcery, conjuring) are 1 skill and 1 skill only -- and blend them with the majority of SR3's workings. Then drop your PCs into the middle of a meat grinder and see if they survive.

[mallet]

Re: ShadowrunHero game?

 

I thought I would update this for anyone interested, and feedback would be welcome.

 

So as I slowly plug along at my adaption of Shadowrun into Hero, I have come up with this as the base for my conversion:

 

1. In Shadowrun human stats go from 1 to 6, with 3 being human average.

 

2. In Hero normal human stats go from 1 to 20 with 8 being average. **Now in Dark Champions it says that 18 STR is a world class weightlifter, that's strong enough for me, so I am going to make 18 the human max cut-off for all stats. This will give human a range of 1-18 for stats in my campaign.

 

3. Taking both points 1 & 2 into account, that gives me the ratio that 1 stat point in SR = 3 points in Hero. With this ratio an Average human in Hero has a stat of 9 which is close enough to the standard 8 for me.

 

Why is this important...

 

4. Knowing the ratio for stats makes it a lot easier to design cyberware, bioware and metahuman bonuses. IE) a dwarf with +2 CON in Shadowrun gets +6 CON in Hero, a +1 muscle replacement vat job will give a character +3 STR, A spell that provides a +3 INT check will give +9 INT in Hero, etc... You get the point.

 

Now I am working out what the base points for Char.Gen should be. Any ideas for this would be cool.

 

My plan right now is to build a non-magical, non-cyber character (Just a full skill based character) in Shadowrun, and then convert him over to Hero and see how many points it cost to make him.

 

Then I will make an average shadowrun human and convert that and see how many points that costs in hero.

 

Hopefully that will give me a good baseline to go by for CP's for character generation.

[eternal_sage]

Re: ShadowrunHero game?

 

are you using 2 points or 3 as the base (i can't remember what SR4th says)? if your using 2, then your calcs are off, as that would be a 6. personally, i'd map then 4:1 (HERO:SR) so that 1 SR is 4 HERO, 2 SR (normal, as i recall) is 8, 3 SR is 12 HERO, etc, which gives you a 24 absolute maximum (without magic/cyberware). now, the reason i'd do this is two fold: a) i think normal, everyday people are 2 in SR, not 3, and because you want more room at the top than the bottom, because you want HEROes not the delivery guy.

 

also, that 24 is a completly HARD CAP that cannot be transcended as a human, but it does not rule out a soft cap at, say, 16, or even 20. if i remember correctly the sixth point costs double during character generation (although i may be thinking nWoD, which i know to be true, if so, sorry )

 

however, i think you have totally the right idea (and i for one would be interested in what you come up with as an end product) that will simplify everything downstream.