running down a crowded hall waving his weapon?

[runescience]

Last week when i ran my game,

players entered a conflict area/hallway that was 2 hexes wide and 10 hexes long.

 

They were caught unaware *Suprise* at an archway. The players where deadlocked at archway toe to toe.

 

One of the players insisted he could push his way into the crowded hallway, forward into 2 inhabited hexes, passing the first 4 enemies, and start attacking some one from there. I told him this would've resulted in passing thru hexes inhabited by the enemy, and that he must stop at the first inhabited hex.

 

Can a player waltz thru enemy inhabited hexes?

 

Whats the mechanic for that?

[Battlestaff]

Re: running down a crowded hall waving his weapon?

 

Last week when i ran my game,

players entered a conflict area/hallway that was 2 hexes wide and 10 hexes long.

 

They were caught unaware *Suprise* at an archway. The players where deadlocked at archway toe to toe.

 

One of the players insisted he could push his way into the crowded hallway, forward into 2 inhabited hexes, passing the first 4 enemies, and start attacking some one from there. I told him this would've resulted in passing thru hexes inhabited by the enemy, and that he must stop at the first inhabited hex.

 

Can a player waltz thru enemy inhabited hexes?

 

Whats the mechanic for that?

 

I would look at the character's STR versus the STR of the people he was trying to push out of the way. I would say his STR would have to equal or exceed their STR before he could even contemplate pushing his opponents out of the way. You could give a bonus for him using a shield (to push the others and restrict their ability to brace and fight back) and for the members of his party pushing from behind, but that would be up to you. I would also impose restrictions based on the number of enemies he had to push through.

 

Also, I would allow the people he pushed past, on their actions, to attack him from behind because he pushed past them without protecting himself. Unless the character had Defense Maneuver, I would give his opponents bonuses to hit him, also.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: running down a crowded hall waving his weapon?

 

Technically, yes. You can move past opponents as you like unless they are doing something that would specifically prevent it...like deliberately or passively blocking a passage somehow.

 

There's no lock in, attacks of opportunity, or anything like that. However, enemies behind the main lines are probably holding a half or full phase action and can DEX off with a character attempting to move past them to take action to prevent / intercept.

 

Actually moving thru occupied hexes gets a little gray but it really depends on the circumstances involved. The thing to keep in mind is that a hex is actually quite large, 6.5 feet. The average person isn't really a 6.5 foot thick column. I could run past you at near touch distance in real life unless you were deliberately prepared to attempt to stop me.

 

There are also some optional rules that you can turn on that hamper this. I believe they are in Fantasy HERO. I know that they are in the Combat Handbook (which is what I use to run games out of).

[L. Marcus]

Re: running down a crowded hall waving his weapon?

 

The optional rule Ignoring Opponents is on p. 157 of Fantasy Hero. It says that if you try to move past (through the same or an adjacent hex as) an opponent and he has a Held Action, you are at ½ DCV.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: running down a crowded hall waving his weapon?

 

As a GM, I have a fairly low tolerance for players doing things that fly in the face of common sense. Rule or no rule, I would have strongly discouraged him from attempting this. If he insisted, I probably would have ruled something like this:

 

A hex with 1 person in it is clear enough for you to get through it. 2 people in a hex means you have to either squeeze through it (DEX roll to pass through the hex without touching either person already there), or push past them. To push past them, you'd have to succeed in your Casual STR overcoming their mass if they don't know you're coming, or overcoming their mass plus their Casual STR if they do. Attempting to push past and failing would automatically turn your action into an attempt to Move Through. 3 or more people and you can only Move Through.

 

And all of this is in addition to the standard rule about Ignoring Opponents.

[Maur]

Re: running down a crowded hall waving his weapon?

 

Presence attack + move by/through. If the front line had already attacked, then they have no held action to use to prevent the person from going by. The next line might, as has already been noted.

[Comic]

Re: running down a crowded hall waving his weapon?

 

Batman could do it.

 

There are endless variations on how to move places common sense tells one not to go.

 

Summon a Fool, then get them to carry you piggy-back style.

 

Acrobatics.

 

Contortionist.

 

Stealth.

 

Persuasion.

 

Intimidation.

 

Breakfall, to squeeze under their defenses.

 

Escape artist.

 

Martial maneuvers which include a movement component.

 

Pole vault.

 

Swingline.

 

A hex is two meters across. Six and a half feet. Two hexes, thirteen feet. Four men in a thirteen foot by six and a half foot space is actually pretty sparse.

 

Sure, I'd assign some sort of reasonable penalty for just sauntering on by, but this doesn't even meet the criteria for 'implausible' or 'foolhardy'. It's merely reckless or bold.

 

Well, with some 'bonkers' thrown in, for taking on such a numerically superior force.

[McManus]

Re: running down a crowded hall waving his weapon?

 

A hex is two meters across. Six and a half feet. Two hexes, thirteen feet. Four men in a thirteen foot by six and a half foot space is actually pretty sparse.

 

Sure, I'd assign some sort of reasonable penalty for just sauntering on by, but this doesn't even meet the criteria for 'implausible' or 'foolhardy'. It's merely reckless or bold.

 

Well, with some 'bonkers' thrown in, for taking on such a numerically superior force.

 

This makes some sense. But keep doing the math. I am a man. I am two feet wide with my arms at my side. Four men = 8 ft wide. If I have a shield it may be 3 ft wide. Four shields = 12 feet wide. If I have a sword in hand that will likely stick out another foot from the front/side of the shield. Now I am 3-4 ft wide. Four such = 12-16ft wide. That 13 ft double hex is getting pretty crowded. We probably don't have room to stand side by side, so we stagger into two rows. There is room for someone (also 3-4ft wide) to squeeze through, but not quickly or easily. On the other hand if that person is 2ft or less wide, they might not have much trouble.

 

DEX roll at least I would say.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: running down a crowded hall waving his weapon?

 

I'd say ...

 

... um, death. He pushed past 4 -- not one, or two, but FOUR -- people, at least two of whom look to be holding their actions. Bonus to their OCV, 1/2 of his DCV, etc. etc. They combine to overbear (Grab) him, dragging him to the ground where he's brought into non-combat time, and thus is taking non-combat damage ...

 

... and he's got his throat cut because he decided to shove into the middle of his enemies. Object lesson.

[archermoo]

Re: running down a crowded hall waving his weapon?

 

Last week when i ran my game,

players entered a conflict area/hallway that was 2 hexes wide and 10 hexes long.

 

They were caught unaware *Suprise* at an archway. The players where deadlocked at archway toe to toe.

 

One of the players insisted he could push his way into the crowded hallway, forward into 2 inhabited hexes, passing the first 4 enemies, and start attacking some one from there. I told him this would've resulted in passing thru hexes inhabited by the enemy, and that he must stop at the first inhabited hex.

 

Can a player waltz thru enemy inhabited hexes?

 

Whats the mechanic for that?

 

Well, I've seen people do that in "real" combat (SCA fighting). Sometimes it works and they get through the shield wall and wreck havoc behind the lines, until they are cut down. More usually they get punked in the face with a spear and die a lot before they get past the first person.

 

As others have noted, 1/2 DCV vs anyone that has a held action as he tries to push past them. Unless he is a LOT better than the bad guys, he'll probably regret it. And if he IS a LOT better than them, it wouldn't be that unreasonable for it to work out well for him.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: running down a crowded hall waving his weapon?

 

... and die a lot before they get past the first person.

 

Pretty generous with the death there. Most places I've been to only allow one per person.

[Curufea]

Re: running down a crowded hall waving his weapon?

 

Pretty generous with the death there. Most places I've been to only allow one per person.

 

Even in metal weapon groups - sometimes you really have to underline the point that they are, indeed, dead and should stop moving/fighting ASAP.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: running down a crowded hall waving his weapon?

 

Pretty generous with the death there. Most places I've been to only allow one per person.

"Kill him a LOT!" -- Amilyn to his henchmen after his left arm is torn off' date=' [b']Buffy The Vampire Slayer[/b], 1992.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: running down a crowded hall waving his weapon?

 

This makes some sense. But keep doing the math. I am a man. I am two feet wide with my arms at my side. Four men = 8 ft wide. If I have a shield it may be 3 ft wide. Four shields = 12 feet wide. If I have a sword in hand that will likely stick out another foot from the front/side of the shield. Now I am 3-4 ft wide. Four such = 12-16ft wide. That 13 ft double hex is getting pretty crowded. We probably don't have room to stand side by side, so we stagger into two rows. There is room for someone (also 3-4ft wide) to squeeze through, but not quickly or easily. On the other hand if that person is 2ft or less wide, they might not have much trouble.

 

DEX roll at least I would say.

 

Have you ever played a sport like, say, lacrosse or hockey? I have. I've also been in actual fights, had close combat and urban combat training. And fenced foil and sabre both on the strip and in melee. I've got a little bit of personal experience with immediate range conflict.

 

It is not only very possible for one man to run right past another, its not even that especially difficult if you time it correctly (wait for or lure them into committing to a movement) and have good technique. Running past two men abreast is more difficult because you have to commit to one side or the other earlier and the second man will likely be on your rear end pretty quickly if you time it badly, but not impossible.

 

On the other hand running past two men, one behind the other, is entirely more difficult for a variety of reasons. This is the heart of a good x zone defense vs a box or man to man as it happens. For starters the second defender has much more time to adjust and react to what you are doing. For seconders you usually can't entirely see them from where you as the attacker start your evasion which makes it difficult to predict the available lines vs the threatened lines until you are past the first man. For thirders if the second man even just slows you down a bit it gives the first defender time to adjust and flank you or take an unguarded shot on your back (often the back of the head which sucks). One on three, you're going down for sure unless you get very lucky or are just awesomely quick. In a sport it might be worth it anyway if you can still get a good shot on the goal but in lethal combat it would be suicide.

 

I think the HERO System does an excellent job of modeling / simulating this without any necessary alterations or house ruling assuming the GM relies on the Held Action rules and lets them do their job. The optional Ignoring Opponents rule off = cinematic, on = more realistic.

 

If the GM really wants to present a bottle neck this is easily accomplished by simply declaring the obstructed area as being a reasonably sized aperture like 3 feet wide and 7 feet tall or the like. No reason to get trapped into an artificial concept of every door being measured in precise hex increments (the writing of which actually made me reminisce about the good old early D&D days where every hallway was exactly 10 x 10 and every door was a 10 x 10 arch )

[archermoo]

Re: running down a crowded hall waving his weapon?

 

Pretty generous with the death there. Most places I've been to only allow one per person.

 

Yeah, well since we don't actually kill people for real in SCA combat, and since adreniline can get pretty high during a battle, sometimes you can get killed several times before you (or they) notice.

 

Though sometimes it is easier than others. I've been bodily picked up and toppled over by a spear thrust to the face before, and I weighed about 230# at the time, plus armour on top of that. As I had pretty good armour the thrust itself didn't really hurt, though landing with a tree stump in my low back kinds stung a bit...

[Outsider]

Re: running down a crowded hall waving his weapon?

 

My usual ruling : too many people in a given hex-width constitutes a barrier to movement.

 

 

A hex width occupied by a single, normal sized person is entirely passable. If they are cooperative with your passage, that's great, if they are not and have a phase available they can attack you while you are at 1/2 DCV for ignoring a ready opponent.

 

A hex width occupied by two normal sized people normally requires a successful Acrobatics roll, or a successful penalized DEX roll to pass through. If the one (or both) of the people in the hex has a phase available, one can sacrifice a half phase to stand aside while you pass, thus negating the need for a Acrobatics or DEX roll. If they oppose your passage and have a phase available, they may attack you while you're at 1/2 DCV. Don't forget to give them their multiple attacker bonus too.

 

A hex width occupied by three normal sized people constitutes a wall of flesh and can only be passed through with a successful penalized Acrobatics roll. Again, ones with phases may cooperate with your passage by making way. In this case, two must sacrifice a half phase to make a clear passage. If only one sacrifices the half phase, then you may pass as per the '2 people in a hexwidth' ruling above (ie with an unpenalized Acrobatics roll or penalized DEX roll) As usual, ignored ready opponents can attack while you are at 1/2 DCV, and they get an even bigger multiple attacker bonus in this case.

 

 

Also note : Ready opponents with pole-arms can Set vs Charge against anyone trying to move through/by their hex. Now if you ignore them you're at 1/2 DCV, they may get multiple attacker bonuses, AND you take extra damage based on your own movement.

[Badger]

Re: running down a crowded hall waving his weapon?

 

So, was I the only when reading this thread title opened it half expecting it to read.

 

 

............and he tripped falling on his own sword.

 

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: running down a crowded hall waving his weapon?

 

Though sometimes it is easier than others. I've been bodily picked up and toppled over by a spear thrust to the face before' date=' and I weighed about 230# at the time, plus armour on top of that. As I had pretty good armour the thrust itself didn't really hurt, though landing with a tree stump in my low back kinds stung a bit...[/quote']

 

Yeah, but was it a good hit?

[archermoo]

Re: running down a crowded hall waving his weapon?

 

Yeah' date=' but was it a good hit? [/quote']

 

Well, I thought about calling it light, but it took me a bit to long to stand back up again.

 

Though I'll have to say I've actually seen someone (in a Crown Tourney no less) call a shot that knocked them down (and dented their helm) light. They didn't finish the tourney.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: running down a crowded hall waving his weapon?

 

Well, I thought about calling it light, but it took me a bit to long to stand back up again.

 

Though I'll have to say I've actually seen someone (in a Crown Tourney no less) call a shot that knocked them down (and dented their helm) light. They didn't finish the tourney.

 

Ah, rhino-hiders. You gotta love 'em ... from a long, long way off.