Homo Sapiens and their guns

[Clonus]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

 

Extra ordinary circumstances require extra ordinary people. Cops can't deal with a teleporting brick,

 

Neither can any character I've ever played. Teleporters with good defenses are the definition of frustration.

 

a Mentalist Cult leader

,

 

If the cops can't handle a mentalist cult leader, how are they going to keep him in custody after the heroes leave?

 

a shape shifting alien meta morph sleeping around with the Secretary of Defenses wife,

 

Why can't federal counter-intelligence agencies deal with that?

 

It sounds almost as if you expect nonsupers to be dumb.

[wrestlinggeek]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

 

It sounds almost as if you expect nonsupers to be dumb.

 

Actually, quite the opposite. He statted out the average marine as having a 12 Int.

[Tungsten Shephard]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

Why can't federal counter-intelligence agencies deal with that?

 

LOL I'm glad you asked that question. It took the players a few sessions to figure that one out too. Turned out that.

 

a) Meta Morph in question was working for the federal counter - intelligence agency.

 

Freedom of information act, required the players to work co-vert establish a pattern and then a trap. By alerting the federal counter - intelligence agency in question would have alerted the meta morph in question.

 

If the cops can't handle a mentalist cult leader, how are they going to keep him in custody after the heroes leave?

 

Who said anything about handing the cult leader over to the cops. An island in the middle of the pacific ocean worked just fine.

 

Neither can any character I've ever played. Teleporters with good defenses are the definition of frustration.

 

Yes this is a good quandary for good players. Nonetheless they figured it out. and captured the brute. Dispel vs. a given power works just fine. Ever wonder why children are vaccinated after birth? Well in my game world there is an important reason for this.

 

It sounds almost as if you expect nonsupers to be dumb.

 

You have obviously not read many of my posts. I believe in quite the opposite.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

I sincerely hope by "costume" you don't mean bullet proof spandex?

 

Thats so 70's... (shudders)

 

These days the "Spandex" is the same stretchy material that the Olympic Skiing team suits are made of, that undergoes a state change on impact and diffuses the energy of a blow, with a woven carbon nano-fiber outer shell.

 

In the 70's bulletproof spandex was a silly hedge.

Today, it's more or less a reality...they just have to improve the manufacturing processes to make the fullerene fabric.

[Clonus]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

LOL I'm glad you asked that question. It took the players a few sessions to figure that one out too. Turned out that.

a) Meta Morph in question was working for the federal counter - intelligence agency.

 

So the problem is not that the authorities were unable to deal with an extraordinary problem. It's just that they weren't policing themselves.

 

Who said anything about handing the cult leader over to the cops. An island in the middle of the pacific ocean worked just fine.

 

He didn't have Mind Search?

 

Yes this is a good quandary for good players. Nonetheless they figured it out. and captured the brute. Dispel vs. a given power works just fine.

 

Yes, I never had a character with dispel teleport. Certainly I thought of such a solution, but my characters would have been no more capable of making use of it than the cops would.

 

You have obviously not read many of my posts. I believe in quite the opposite.

 

So why can't normal authorities inject a mentalist with drugs...or just shoot him?

[Tungsten Shephard]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

So why can't normal authorities inject a mentalist with drugs...or just shoot him? He didn't have Mind Search?

 

Who says the authorities did not try? Some heads are easier to shoot than others. Especially since the chief of police was a card carrying cult member. The players figured out real quick some cult leaders are harder to get to than others. Also the players though it was total poetic justice to just leave him on a isolated island in the Pacific Ocean. The Villain tended to go mad [insane] if he did not have followers to command.

 

As for the other questions no the Mentalist did not have Mind Scan, Just Mind control Ego attack and other various special effects with it. One of his "cult women" had the mind scan ability. Thus "Pharaoh" was eventually defeated by the brave actions of Joe Cool and the Gang. LOL now that I remember R. J. Reynolds was their only commercial sponsor they could find at the time. Its been an ongoing joke ever since. Joe Cool's only mutant ability was immunity to Poisons, & Disease. He used/ uses a gun for his primary offense power.

[Alibear]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

Your world, GloryFox, must be populated by 150 point characters wheras mine is populated by 0 & 25+25 characters.

 

You give your marines more KS than I give military historians. I reckon on 3 years solid study to get a KS 11- in the real world, you think a few weeks basic training is enough.

 

We'll have to agree to differ.

 

All the best,

Al

[Tungsten Shephard]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

@ Alibear

 

My world is populated by people who don't have super powers. There are people who are the exception called Supers. Take any group of Supers away from their powers and whats left ,,,, normals.

 

Just because your normal does not mean you must now punish them with incompetence at 25+25. Then again if you want your world filled with incompetent people thats your business. I believe in the competence of normals until it involves politics. (lets not discuss politics here please)

 

Normals in my games are generally 50+50. Incompetent DNPC's are usually worth 25+25. Useful DNPC's are 75+75.

 

All supers in my game built are based on the following to start. 200+150

Characteristics 125 Max

Skills, Perks or 3 point Talents 50 max

Primary Powers or Special Equipment 100 Max

Secondary Powers Martial Arts or Talents 75 Max

Disadvantages allowed 150

 

I think this is a good method and balance of Supers compared to Normals in any game. I see no reason to not allow at least 50 skill points to a normal if I require 50 for a super.

[Opal]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

You give your marines more KS than I give military historians. I reckon on 3 years solid study to get a KS 11- in the real world.

When they were first introduced as 'background skills' a basic KS was supposed to represent a college education in the subject, yes. But we've had a lot of skill inflation since then. I'll accept that it's justified when the sorts of skill in question are a meaningful focus of the game, but, if it really is /just/ a background skill that'll only rarely be important, the old way works just fine, IMHO.

 

 

 

Just because your normal does not mean you must now punish them with incompetence at 25+25.

There's nothing remotely incompetent about a 25 point character. He won't be that competent in combat, which is expensive, but he could be quite talented in a less point-intensive aplication. For instance, Holmesian deduction of 18- is well within his reach (8 points of INT, Deduction +5 = 21 pts, add Disads and KS - need more points, drop some physical stats to 8). Actually, even in combat, 25 pts would be quite sufficient to mop the floor with a 'normal' (straight 10's, no combat training), it'll get you a martial arts package (11 to 13 points or so) and 4 points of DEX, for instance - add the 25 in disads, take a 15 STR, 13 CON, 3 SPD and some levels, and you could easily handle several normals in a fight.

 

I believe in the competence of normals until it involves politics. (lets not discuss politics here please)

I so agree. I just have a more cheritable threshold of competence, I suppose - perhaps because, personally, I'd be well below /your/ threashold of competence.

 

 

Normals in my games are generally 50+50. Incompetent DNPC's are usually worth 25+25. Useful DNPC's are 75+75.

I guess I'm stuck in the past. I was pretty happy with the game when supers were 100+disads and 'incompetent DNPC' were -20.

 

 

 

All supers in my game built are based on the following to start. 200+150

Characteristics 125 Max

Skills, Perks or 3 point Talents 50 max

Primary Powers or Special Equipment 100 Max

Secondary Powers Martial Arts or Talents 75 Max

Disadvantages allowed 150

So, if you take the max Disads, you prettymuch have to take exactly the max in everything else? And you can't be a 'basic marine' as part of your background because it breaks the skill cap?

 

 

I think this is a good method and balance of Supers compared to Normals in any game. I see no reason to not allow at least 50 skill points to a normal if I require 50 for a super.

That's not actually such a bad way of looking at it. Supers have powers - mechanically, powers are expensive, but psychologically, they're also that really big hammer that makes all your problems look like nails. Normals don't, so they have more practical (and emotional) reasons for acquiring skills.

[Tungsten Shephard]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

That's not actually such a bad way of looking at it. Supers have powers - mechanically, powers are expensive, but psychologically, they're also that really big hammer that makes all your problems look like nails. Normals don't, so they have more practical (and emotional) reasons for acquiring skills.

 

Yes and there is no reason, skills, can't be a source of primary power. For example one of my favorite PC's for a game I run is a guy named Joe Cool. Joe is a skill's based super character set for a Champions Universe. His 100 points (at least 80 of them) are skills. Other than his 20 points in life support he is basically a normal with a gun. Because the player involved is a good player he is more than a match for almost any super he runs into.

 

Lex Luthor is Joe Cool's hero.

[Opal]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

Yes and there is no reason' date=' skills, can't be a source of primary power.[/quote']OK, that'd free up some slack in your guidelines. I suppose, by the same token, a characteristic or characteristics could be an aspect of a 'primary power' as with a brick's STR or a Speedster's DEX/SPD?

[wrestlinggeek]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

Yes and there is no reason' date=' skills, can't be a source of primary power. For example one of my favorite PC's for a game I run is a guy named Joe Cool. Joe is a skill's based super character set for a Champions Universe. His 100 points (at least 80 of them) are skills. Other than his 20 points in life support he is basically a normal with a gun. Because the player involved is a good player he is more than a match for almost any super he runs into. [/quote']

 

But Joe Cool isn't "basicly a normal." He's a super! He's no more a "normal" than Batman is!

 

Lex Luthor is Joe Cool's hero.

 

So, what, he's a villain?

[Tungsten Shephard]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

OK, that'd free up some slack in your guidelines. I suppose, by the same token, a characteristic or characteristics could be an aspect of a 'primary power' as with a brick's STR or a Speedster's DEX/SPD?

 

Well characteristics like STR is a whole different animal, Especially since there are so many ways of increasing damage from STR. I tend to want to know why your adding stats as part of your powers outside of the 125 point Characteristic maximum ratio. I've only once allowed a character to use his primary powers as stats. It made total sense for that character "Patriot Man". STR can always be increased via Growth or Density increase as part of your primary powers. At least thats how I govern my games.

 

Look the whole point is you can have a normal with skills. Not all normals are useless cannon fodder as some here seem to suggest. Furthermore a super without super powers is basically a normal. Yeah Joe Cool is immune to poisons and disease, big whoopee, like that has come into play if at all. Joe Uses a gun and his brains to fight crime. This is something Normals can do.

 

The whole point being that Supers outside of their powers are just as normal as you and me. The major difference is what is inside the heart of the person is what matters most. It's that simple choice for Justice, to right wrongs done, that makes a man or woman a HERO.

 

So, what, he's a villain?

 

No he is a HERO who must contend with people who have real dangerous powers. Sometimes the bad guys have good idea's, just implemented without a basis for morality.

[Zed-F]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

I agree that it generally helps to make a distinction between a heroic or superheroic character with 'intense training' SFX and what most people think of when we talk about a normal.

 

Like some others here, I'm generally against skill inflation when it comes to background skills and other things 'normals' have. I try to adopt a minimalist approach in that regard, for normals as well as for supers; I don't think everything a character has ever done necessarily needs to be on the sheet, but only those things that are important to the essence of the character, and should expect to see regular use. An 11- in a skill is good enough to base a career off it in my books, most folks are 0+0 or 0+25 or 25+25, and even elite special forces guys are built on 50+50. For me, if you have 75+75 or more, you're an action hero star, not someone you might expect to meet walking down the street.

 

Joe Cool, built as a PC? He's not a normal, he's an action hero star at least, if not an outright super ala Batman or the Punisher.

[Alibear]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

Mr. Fox - the only thing I have agreed with you in this thread so far is that we shouldn't discuss politics here.

[Legatus]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

Mr. Fox - the only thing I have agreed with you in this thread so far is that we shouldn't discuss politics here.

 

I agree!

[Clonus]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

 

Look the whole point is you can have a normal with skills.

 

If he has way more skills than normal, then I wouldn't class him as a normal.

[Yansuf]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

On a side note Military Law prohibits its use against the populace unless its a national security measure.

 

This may be a quibble, but that is not true.

US Law has the "posse commitatus" (I probably mis-spelled that) act, but I do not know of any other country that has a similar law. Certainly GB, France and Switzerland do not.

In addition if martial law is declared (in the area, not whole country) that law does not apply. Also, the National Guard, while on State (not Federal) duty, does not come under this law.

[Clonus]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

This may be a quibble, but that is not true.

US Law has the "posse commitatus" (I probably mis-spelled that) act, but I do not know of any other country that has a similar law. Certainly GB, France and Switzerland do not.

In addition if martial law is declared (in the area, not whole country) that law does not apply. Also, the National Guard, while on State (not Federal) duty, does not come under this law.

 

I'm having visions of Jennifer Walters filing an injunction against the Hulkbusters for violating posse comitatus to pick on her cousin.

[Tungsten Shephard]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

Yes your right outside of the U.S. other countries don't have this restriction. I tend to forget the international nature of forums in general.

[assault]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

Until relatively recently, there are serious constraints on using the military inside Australia. These have been eased in the name on the good old "War on Terror".

 

These constraints actually became relevant in the early 1930s, when the Federal government and the New South Wales government were at loggerheads. The Feds quickly realised that if shooting started, they wouldn't be able to call on the army, and had to pass special laws to authorise the formation of a militia that they could use against the New South Wales police. The NSW government were busily expanding their police force by swearing in lots of Special Constables from the ranks of their supporters.

 

For what it's worth, the Australian army at that stage consisted of about 4000 regulars, and 30000 militia. Hardly huge.

[wrestlinggeek]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

 

 

No he is a HERO who must contend with people who have real dangerous powers. Sometimes the bad guys have good idea's, just implemented without a basis for morality.

 

Sorry, but you can steal ideas from someone without calling them your hero. Your statement was that Lex Luthor was Joe Cool's HERO. Your hero isn't someone you just take ideas from, but someone you look up to and seek to emulate.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

No a cop and a .45 would not make a Super (in my campaign) look twice. Especially true if he had a few xps under his belt.

Same in ours. Of course, the supers would likely not be concerned about a cop with a .45 for entirely different reasons. The brick might know that a pistol can't possibly hurt her (20 rPD), the martial artist know there's no way a normal cop can possibly hit her (14+ DCV), while the mentalist knows the cop simply won't be able to pull the trigger (Mind Control).

[Tungsten Shephard]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

Your statement was that Lex Luthor was Joe Cool's HERO. Your hero isn't someone you just take ideas from, but someone you look up to and seek to emulate.

 

Yes and here is why. Lex Luthor is a normal, well ok he is more than normal, but for purposes of discussion he is basically normal. His nemesis is the most powerful being on the planet. This almost all-powerful being could squish him like a bug if he wanted to. Does Lex give up? NO Lex does not give up, he does not throw away his dreams or ambitions. He works as hard as he can behind the scenes, discovers the weakness of his opponents. He uses the weakness of his opponent to win the contest at hand, and simply walks away without harm.

 

Eventually against all odds Lex Luthor applies Sun Tzu's "Art of War" against his chief rival, Superman, and lives another day to tell about it. This is what Joe Cool does. Thus from a certain point of view Lex Luthor is Joe Cool's personal HERO. Never gives up, never surrenders even against the most powerful being on earth.

 

Joe Cool, Private Eye, Metahuman investigator lives again to face opponents that could squish him like a bug. Undaunted by his relentless pursuit of Justice with a .45, a pack of cigarettes, and a few real super friends, he wins the day again, and another master villain goes to jail. (or in the case of a certain cult leader a small island deserted in the pacific)

[Trebuchet]

Re: Homo Sapiens and their guns

 

Yes and here is why. Lex Luthor is a normal, well ok he is more than normal, but for purposes of discussion he is basically normal. His nemesis is the most powerful being on the planet. This almost all-powerful being could squish him like a bug if he wanted to. Does Lex give up? NO Lex does not give up, he does not throw away his dreams or ambitions. He works as hard as he can behind the scenes, discovers the weakness of his opponents. He uses the weakness of his opponent to win the contest at hand, and simply walks away without harm.

 

Eventually against all odds Lex Luthor applies Sun Tzu's "Art of War" against his chief rival, Superman, and lives another day to tell about it. This is what Joe Cool does. Thus from a certain point of view Lex Luthor is Joe Cool's personal HERO. Never gives up, never surrenders even against the most powerful being on earth.

 

Joe Cool, Private Eye, Metahuman investigator lives again to face opponents that could squish him like a bug. Undaunted by his relentless pursuit of Justice with a .45, a pack of cigarettes, and a few real super friends, he wins the day again, and another master villain goes to jail. (or in the case of a certain cult leader a small island deserted in the pacific)

That doesn't remove the fact that Lex Luthor is a villain. One does not idolize villains.

 

One can respect or even admire certain aspects of villains; just as the British respected and admired Erwin Rommel's military skill in WW2 but still fought him. But Rommel was still not considered a hero by the British.