Legsweep

[mayapuppies]

In all of my games throughout history, not a single person in my campaigns have ever selected this maneuver.

 

Last year I introduced a new group to HERO System and apparently everyone in that group selected it and use it almost exclusively to other attacks. They play FH and are "ex-D20" converts.

 

Now I have a player in my Hero Central campaign with the maneuver (bought for his spear) and he just used it to rather devastating effect. Now, I've read it over but it seems that I'm doing it wrong.

 

The maneuver gives a +2 OCV and -1 DCV and, I'm assuming auto targets the lower hit locations. Now normally you get a - to OCV to target this area and I was wondering if that +2 from the maneuver was designed to counter that negative or is that negative ignored?

 

Now he has this maneuver with his spear and I've always imagined it being done with the blunt end. Well, he did it with the bladed end, worked out to be a 2d6K targeting the lower body (thigh specifcally) and lopped off the poor suckers leg.

 

Can this maneuver be used with the "blade" of a weapon?

 

The only reason I'm asking is that I can absolutely see this as a WAY overpowered maneuver and I just want to be sure that we're using it correctly.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Legsweep

 

It can be used with whatever device/weapon/attack you have.

 

If you are playing with Optional Hit Location Rules you can decide your Legsweep always targets as a Leg Shot (d6+12). [this is an Optional Rule on top of the Optional Rules. Not all GMs allow certain Maneuvers to always target certain locations. If you use it you cannot change the location, unless the GM says so and imposes an OCV Penalty.]

Otherwise you take an OCV penalty to perform a Leg Shot.

If you do neither it simply means you hit the target hard enough, or in a manner, that causes them to fall down (you knock them in the side and they lose balance, or whatever you can think of).

 

There's no specific reason that the Mechanical Legsweep Maneuver has to be a "legsweep."

 

Remember though that Martial Maneuvers add DCs at half the rate. Legsweep adds 1DC which you can take to round down and add no extra damage (there are no 1/2 DCs); combine with something else to equal a full DC (Martial DC, Skill Levels, STR) or be nice and round up to add a full DC by itself.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Legsweep

 

Ok, thanks GA

[Jaxom]

Re: Legsweep

 

I'd like to extend this question a bit... If I choose to incorporate legsweep into a multipower attack, say as a martial artist, do I get the advantages of having a prone target for subsequent power effects?

 

Wouldn't necessarily have to be a martial artist, either... Legsweep followed by an entangle would be an equally interesting question.

 

Legsweep is nasty enough for putting people prone (a disadvantage that costs a lot of people a half-phase in a lot of situations) but can be combined to really devastating effect if you have held actions or other tricks to immediately take advantage of a now-prone target.

[archermoo]

Re: Legsweep

 

I'd like to extend this question a bit... If I choose to incorporate legsweep into a multipower attack, say as a martial artist, do I get the advantages of having a prone target for subsequent power effects?

 

Wouldn't necessarily have to be a martial artist, either... Legsweep followed by an entangle would be an equally interesting question.

 

Legsweep is nasty enough for putting people prone (a disadvantage that costs a lot of people a half-phase in a lot of situations) but can be combined to really devastating effect if you have held actions or other tricks to immediately take advantage of a now-prone target.

 

In a MPA, all off the attacks are resolved at the same time. So none of the attacks can take advantage of any of the results of the other attacks.

[GamePhil]

I'd like to extend this question a bit... If I choose to incorporate legsweep into a multipower attack, say as a martial artist, do I get the advantages of having a prone target for subsequent power effects?

 

I assume you mean a multiple power attack? I wouldn't correct you, but multipower attack is confusing.

 

No, all of the attacks from an MPA go off at once, so the target won't be prone until afterward.

 

Edit: Drat, too slow.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Legsweep

 

If you were to build 'Legsweep' as you would any other power, keeping all of the same modifiers, what would it look like?

 

I'm seriously debating building all martial maneuvers as regular powers rather than the seemingly very inexpensive method they currently have.

[GamePhil]

Re: Legsweep

 

As a Power, I would buy it as:

 

Xd6 Hand Attack or HKA, Side Effect (-1 DCV, -0 or -1/4 if the GM is a bit lenient, this is how Steve built weapons with penalties in various books)

plus

+2 OCV with above hand attack (2 Specific Attack Combat Skill Levels for 4 points)

plus

1" Teleport, Position Shift, Increased Mass (optional), Usable As Attack (+1); Only To Leave Target Prone (-1/2?), Linked to above attack (-1/2 or -1/4)

 

Or, don't link the Teleport and use it as part of an MPA when you want to use it.

 

Anyone that actually likes this idea can rep Derek Heimforth, who suggested it one day when I complained that the only part of Martial Arts that I couldn't figure out how to build with Powers was the Target Falls Down element. Anyone that doesn't, feel free to blame me.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Legsweep

 

I would have use Double Knockback, limited to Knockdown Only, instead of the Position Shift. I think I like Position Shift better though... just easier to figure in. I suppose the "reasonably common" method of stopping the effect is to make an Acrobatics or Breakfall roll.?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Legsweep

 

A lot of games allow some sort of roll to see if you can 'resist' maneuverer which result in 'target falls'. Hero doesn't. However, look at the 'breakfall' skill. Most warrior types should have this and, even though it technically mitigates 'throws' I'd allow it to apply to legsweep. Falls generally can have pretty draconian results.

 

I'd probably also make getting up from a fall with a breakfall an opposed roll: OCV of attacker v breakfall skill.

[jtelson]

Re: Legsweep

 

A lot of games allow some sort of roll to see if you can 'resist' maneuverer which result in 'target falls'. Hero doesn't. However, look at the 'breakfall' skill. Most warrior types should have this and, even though it technically mitigates 'throws' I'd allow it to apply to legsweep. Falls generally can have pretty draconian results.

 

I'd probably also make getting up from a fall with a breakfall an opposed roll: OCV of attacker v breakfall skill.

 

Since Breakfall can be used to land on your feet vs. Knockback/Knockdown and to stand up as a 0-phase action, I've generally used it to mitigate target falls effects as well.

[GamePhil]

Re: Legsweep

 

I would have use Double Knockback' date=' limited to Knockdown Only, instead of the Position Shift. I think I like Position Shift better though... just easier to figure in. I suppose the "reasonably common" method of stopping the effect is to make an Acrobatics or Breakfall roll.?[/quote']

 

Yeah, thanks, knew I left something out.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Legsweep

 

I'd allow a Breakfall on their next action to stand back up as a 0-Phase Action, but not to mitigate the Target Falls element completely.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Legsweep

 

In all of my games throughout history, not a single person in my campaigns have ever selected this maneuver.

 

Last year I introduced a new group to HERO System and apparently everyone in that group selected it and use it almost exclusively to other attacks. They play FH and are "ex-D20" converts.

 

Now I have a player in my Hero Central campaign with the maneuver (bought for his spear) and he just used it to rather devastating effect. Now, I've read it over but it seems that I'm doing it wrong.

 

The maneuver gives a +2 OCV and -1 DCV and, I'm assuming auto targets the lower hit locations. Now normally you get a - to OCV to target this area and I was wondering if that +2 from the maneuver was designed to counter that negative or is that negative ignored?

Neither / both?

 

Despite the name "legsweep" doesn't necessarily target the legs. I mean, there is no mechanical impetus to require it. One of the dangers of using SFX names as labels for game effects. Not only does the Legsweep maneuver not necessarily target the legs, it also has nothing to do with the "Sweep" mechanic. Very unfortunate name.

 

 

Having said that, you probably aren't far off on the original conception of the maneuver long ago and that is certainly an approach to take if you want to -- requiring it to always be used as part of an assumed "low shot" for 0 net bonus / penalty if you find the move to be over powered. I even seem to recall that some verbiage in the UMA makes specific reference to Legsweep knocking people's feet out from under them (I disapprove of the rules assuming a SFX in general so I tend to notice that sort of thing).

 

 

Now he has this maneuver with his spear and I've always imagined it being done with the blunt end. Well, he did it with the bladed end, worked out to be a 2d6K targeting the lower body (thigh specifcally) and lopped off the poor suckers leg.

 

Can this maneuver be used with the "blade" of a weapon?

If the character has a Weapon Element for it, sure, but it only adds +1DC, and MA damage classes add to Killing damage at half rate. Its not very efficient in other words.

 

The only reason I'm asking is that I can absolutely see this as a WAY overpowered maneuver and I just want to be sure that we're using it correctly.

 

Yes, Legsweep is a pretty good maneuver. The Target Falls element alone is pretty cherry, plus it grants +1 DC, and a +2 OCV. For the low cost of -1 DCV and three points it seems like a good deal on paper, and play quickly reveals that it really is.

 

I think it could be argued in general that the effectiveness of the Target Falls element is underestimated by the MA rules. There is an option that the GM can allow a character to ignore throws of this nature with a Breakfall or straight DEX roll made by half, or an Acrobatics roll at -3, which you might want to consider. A character can also use some powers to resist throws; Clinging, weight by virtue of DI or Growth (or PysLim: Heavy), Flight, KB Resistance, Stretching, and Shapeshift all have the potential to resist some throws.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Legsweep

 

My take on Legsweep is that it is a maneuver designed to throw an opponent to the ground; and that the damage incurred is specifically from that impact with the ground and not from the "sweeping" leg or weapon. I asked Steve Long about Legsweep long ago and that was his ruling (including that being "thrown" onto a soft object via Legsweep would negate much or all of the damage from Legsweep). Based on that, I wouldn't allow a Legsweep to be used to produce extra damage from a weapon. Putting someone Prone is already enough of an advantage in combat; putting them prone after doing extra damage seems like too much of a good thing.

 

Legsweep is very popular with the martial artists in our gaming group; but I can't recall it ever being used with a weapon for extra damage. I have seen it used with long weapons like chains and staffs for extra range (aka Stretching).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Legsweep

 

I'd allow a Breakfall on their next action to stand back up as a 0-Phase Action' date=' but not to mitigate the Target Falls element completely.[/quote']

 

That is indeed the rule although it is worth remembering that breakfall rolls can halve the damage from a throw (thre is a penalty tot he roll) even if they don;t let you land on your feet.

 

If throws are too effective in your estimation, consider a 5 point skill 'prone fighting' which removes the penalties to CV for being prone.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Legsweep

 

That is indeed the rule although it is worth remembering that breakfall rolls can halve the damage from a throw (thre is a penalty tot he roll) even if they don;t let you land on your feet.

 

If throws are too effective in your estimation, consider a 5 point skill 'prone fighting' which removes the penalties to CV for being prone.

 

Good point, I would allow a Breakfall to mitigate the Legsweep Damage.

[Jaxom]

Re: Legsweep

 

Even with Breakfall to mitigate damage, the penalties for being prone are large enough that ( this almost hurts to say ) Sean's suggestion about "Prone Fighting" is probably a very good idea.

 

Remember, a high-dex martial artist need only hold an action until DEX 1 of the phase before his next action. The held action is a Legsweep followed immediately by his next action on high DEX (and heaven forbid he has DEX - Only to determine initiative) which follows up with some big, nasty martial strike to the prone target. Sure, holding the action has some cost to the martial artist, but the payoff is large, especially if you are using any kind of critical blows in your system.

 

(Sorry, Sean, must spread rep and all that...)

[ghost-angel]

Re: Legsweep

 

The only effect of being Prone is it halves your DCV.

 

High DEX Characters are likely to be able to hit you anyways. Not what I'd call a major worry.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Legsweep

 

Even with Breakfall to mitigate damage, the penalties for being prone are large enough that ( this almost hurts to say ) Sean's suggestion about "Prone Fighting" is probably a very good idea.

 

Remember, a high-dex martial artist need only hold an action until DEX 1 of the phase before his next action. The held action is a Legsweep followed immediately by his next action on high DEX (and heaven forbid he has DEX - Only to determine initiative) which follows up with some big, nasty martial strike to the prone target. Sure, holding the action has some cost to the martial artist, but the payoff is large, especially if you are using any kind of critical blows in your system.

 

(Sorry, Sean, must spread rep and all that...)

 

If it helps, I can wear a ghost-angel mask, and we can pretend he said it

[Outsider]

Re: Legsweep

 

The only effect of being Prone is it halves your DCV.

 

High DEX Characters are likely to be able to hit you anyways. Not what I'd call a major worry.

 

Unless you're using hit locations (a heroic game)... then half DCV can be that little nudge that lets the MA hit by 8, and target the head...

 

 

Here's another issue with legsweep :

 

Martial Block = Block+CV

Martial Dodge = Dodge+DCV

Martial Strikes (various) = punch/kick + DC/CV

Martial Escape = Exert STR + Bonus STR

 

What is the non-martial equivalent of Legsweep? Grab and toss? Woldnt that be Martial Throw?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Legsweep

 

Unless you're using hit locations (a heroic game)... then half DCV can be that little nudge that lets the MA hit by 8, and target the head...

 

 

Here's another issue with legsweep :

 

Martial Block = Block+CV

Martial Dodge = Dodge+DCV

Martial Strikes (various) = punch/kick + DC/CV

Martial Escape = Exert STR + Bonus STR

 

What is the non-martial equivalent of Legsweep? Grab and toss? Woldnt that be Martial Throw?

 

Grab & Throw with "Only To Cause Target To End Prone"

 

Since you end up Prone after a Throw as well.

 

Yes it can make Called Shots a little meaner. But you are paying points to do something after all.

 

Like many things - when looked at outside the game it all looks very un-nice and game breaking and OMG PANIC and all that. I've never had it really hurt a game that badly, if at all, in practice - and it's been a fairly standard maneuver for people in the groups I've played with to take.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Legsweep

 

The "Target Falls" element is synonymous with "Throw".

 

If you look in UMA there is no entry for Target Falls in the element descriptions, and under the Throw element it says it is listed as "Target Falls" and other variations on the "Fall" theme in the maneuver list.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Legsweep

 

...

 

Yes, Legsweep is a pretty good maneuver. The Target Falls element alone is pretty cherry, plus it grants +1 DC, and a +2 OCV. For the low cost of -1 DCV and three points it seems like a good deal on paper, and play quickly reveals that it really is.

 

I think it could be argued in general that the effectiveness of the Target Falls element is underestimated by the MA rules. There is an option that the GM can allow a character to ignore throws of this nature with a Breakfall or straight DEX roll made by half, or an Acrobatics roll at -3, which you might want to consider. A character can also use some powers to resist throws; Clinging, weight by virtue of DI or Growth (or PysLim: Heavy), Flight, KB Resistance, Stretching, and Shapeshift all have the potential to resist some throws.

 

As KS has pointed out, Legsweep is essentially a type of throw and as such has that maneuver's requirements that the character can lift the target of the 'throw' with his pushed STR.

[Opal]

Re: Legsweep

 

Wow, I'm flashing back to the D&D forum...

 

Being prone is not that big a deal, you can just stand up and attack again. And, it happens all the time. Knockback (or knockdown), martial throws, grab & throw (STR or TK), cange environment, etc. It's not like D&D with it's Attacks of Opportunity. How does FRED handle half DCV with levels? Are the levels halved, also, or just your DCV from DEX? Can you take 'penalty skill levels' for 'DCV while prone?'

 

Flash also reduces your DCV, and is not so easy to recover from. A Grab or Entangle reduces your DCV, and you have to break out, not just stand up. Coordinating a DCV-reducing manuver with a big attack is not a strange or unreasonable tactic.