Strength as a Figured Characteristic

[ideasmith]

What I'm considering for Secondary Characteristics:

 

STR: BODY*1

PD: BODY/5

ED: CON/5

SPD: (DEX/10)+(INT/20), round normally

REC: (BODY/5)+(CON/5)

END: CON*2

STUN: BODY+CON

 

Comments?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Strength as a Figured Characteristic

 

There a particular reasoning behind this?

 

I'm not sure I see the connection between STR and BODY?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Strength as a Figured Characteristic

 

Well, it's gonna be mighty difficult to kill people like Grond...

 

Or just cheaper to make more "brick" type characters because you get more than just 10 points for free now.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Strength as a Figured Characteristic

 

I like the idea. It makes sense that someone who is bigger (as, generally, Body indicates) is stronger, and the inclusion of INT into the SPD calculation is interesting too.

 

The trouble is this will affect the cost of Body and of INT, so they will need to be modified too. I'm not sure the knock on effects are worth it, but it is a very interesting solution.

[Comic]

Re: Strength as a Figured Characteristic

 

Assuming you're keeping the costs the same, it's a good way to encourage higher BODY and Int, of course.

 

Since many Brick builds have too-low BODY, IMO, not the worst way to go about encouraging more BODY.

 

Likewise, since many speedsters have too low -- IMO -- Int, for Int.

 

But I'd use it more as a conceptual framework, get the player to build what they want under this cost 'in theory', and cost the results of what this build determines normally.

[Opal]

Re: Strength as a Figured Characteristic

 

Do you mean STN = BOD+CON/2 or did you intend to double the amount of STN that CON gets you?

 

It's a radical change, and I don't think it really improves things, but it makes sense. BOD can represent physical size and/or health and/or will to live, any of which could also reasonably allow you to exert more STR.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Strength as a Figured Characteristic

 

BODY could also represent just an unwillingness to die, or pure mass, and not actual STR. Who said lots of BODY translated into lots of muscle tissue.

 

That's my only problem with it, it's forcing some SFX into both Characteristics.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Strength as a Figured Characteristic

 

I think the equating of BODY with STR is problematic, though it would be much less so in a Heroic campaign than a Superheroic. For those who want to experiment with tying STR to BODY (i.e., mass), I probably wouldn't equate it 1-to-1. High mass usually brings a certain increase in STR with it, but there are many exceptions in both directions (and, as ghost-angel notes, BODY doesn't necessarily represent only mass). If I wanted to try it out, I'd probably do something like STR = 5+(BODY/2), instead of STR = BODY.

[Alcamtar]

Re: Strength as a Figured Characteristic

 

I like the general idea, they should be related.

 

So would BODY then cost 3 pts instead of 2?

 

An alternative idea would be to simply set a house rules requirement that STR and BODY must be within 5 pts of one another. So STR 30 requires BODY 25 at a minimum (or vice-versa). That still allows a bit of variation.

 

One side effect of changing the other figured characteristics from STR to BODY is that if you buy extra STR (beyond what comes from BODY) it will not be reflected in REC. It seems to me REC should be related to STR. PD and STUN make sense being based on BODY though.

[Opal]

Re: Strength as a Figured Characteristic

 

An alternative idea would be to simply set a house rules requirement that STR and BODY must be within 5 pts of one another. So STR 30 requires BODY 25 at a minimum (or vice-versa). That still allows a bit of variation.

I do something a little like that. I have some F/X based guidelines for my campaign, along the lines of what sorts of mutations, super-tech, magic and the like is in the campaign world, and what you can generall do with them. There are a number of 'mutational syndromes' that increase STR, some quite a bit - they all also tend to increase CON and BOD.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Strength as a Figured Characteristic

 

An alternative idea would be to simply set a house rules requirement that STR and BODY must be within 5 pts of one another. So STR 30 requires BODY 25 at a minimum (or vice-versa). That still allows a bit of variation.

I like this idea much better, although I still think it's much more appropriate to Heroic campaigns, and not so much to Superheroic.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Strength as a Figured Characteristic

 

It becomes very problematic in Superheroic Campaigns where STR can have such wide ranging SFX, ones like "Preternatural Vampiric Strength" or if you want to take other references "The longer my hair grows the stronger I am." which has nothing to do with how much BODY they have, merely the length of Samson's golden locks. . .

 

Linking the two forces SFX to the Mechanics. If anything we should look to go in the opposite direction.

[DreadDomain]

Re: Strength as a Figured Characteristic

 

What I'm considering for Secondary Characteristics:

 

STR: BODY*1

PD: BODY/5

ED: CON/5

SPD: (DEX/10)+(INT/20), round normally

REC: (BODY/5)+(CON/5)

END: CON*2

STUN: BODY+CON

 

Comments?

 

Funny but a while age while thinking how I would reworked the characteristics (see this post http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=840778&postcount=33), I did the exact opposite; BODY was derived from STR. In short, I came up with (copied straight from said post):

 

------------------------

 

Primary Characteristics

All would start at 10 (average human at 8), have a NCM at 20 and an absolute "realistic" maxima at 30 (no more Int up to 50). The cost for all primary characteristics is 2 points per level*.

 

Strength

Dexterity

Constitution

Presence

Intelligence (although the name could be changed to better represent what it really means)

Ego

 

As you can see, Body and Comliness have disappeared from the primary. These were the two odd characteristics anyway and have moved to the secondary characteristics.

 

Secondary (or Figured) Characteristics

Physical Defense (1 point) : Str/5

Energy Defense (1 point) : Con/5

Mental Defense (1 point) : Ego/5

Speed (10 points) : 1+ (Dex+Int)/20

Recovery (2 points) : (Con+Ego)/5

Endurance (1 point because I hate half points) : Con+Ego

Stun (1 point) : (Str+Con+Pre+Ego)/2

Body (2 points) : 8+(Str/5)

Com (1 point because I hate half points) : 8+(Pre/5)

 

All have average, NCM and absolute maxima as per Hero 5. I also used formulas like (Con+Ego)/5 instead of ((Con/5)+(Ego/5)) because then having Con 12 means something when you have Ego 11. I also considered merging PD and ED to create Physical Defense at Con/5.

 

----------------------------------------------

 

I am a big fan of Speed = 1+ (Dex+Int)/20 because then it makes so much more sense to base any actions (mental and physical) on Speed.

 

*Actually, in the same post I go on figuring out that such an arrangement would probably cost closer to 3 points per CHAR but some people might like the point break coming with them.

 

As for Bricks, sure it might be a problem except that I don't buy the famous "STR +5 costs 5 points because it gives +1d6 of damage and +1d6 of damage costs 5 points". STR gives so much more than just damage in my opinion.

[DreadDomain]

Re: Strength as a Figured Characteristic

 

It becomes very problematic in Superheroic Campaigns where STR can have such wide ranging SFX, ones like "Preternatural Vampiric Strength" or if you want to take other references "The longer my hair grows the stronger I am." which has nothing to do with how much BODY they have, merely the length of Samson's golden locks. . .

 

Linking the two forces SFX to the Mechanics. If anything we should look to go in the opposite direction.

 

That is another popular option. At any given time, there is always a "Decoupling Figured Characteristics" thread floating around. On principle, I have no problem with this avenue either but I think deconstructing the system further might make it even harder to get for newcomers.

 

It would have the advantage to better balance characteristics with the whole system though.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Strength as a Figured Characteristic

 

That is another popular option. At any given time, there is always a "Decoupling Figured Characteristics" thread floating around. On principle, I have no problem with this avenue either but I think deconstructing the system further might make it even harder to get for newcomers.

 

It would have the advantage to better balance characteristics with the whole system though.

 

Simply decoupling Figured Characteristics has the advantage of reducing the number of Mathematical Formulas needed at Character Creation.

 

If anything I think it'd make the system look easier. It's not like other systems don't have roughly a similar number of starting numbers (D20 has the "Characteristics" plus Saves, AC, Initiative, etc).

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Strength as a Figured Characteristic

 

That is another popular option. At any given time' date=' there is always a "Decoupling Figured Characteristics" thread floating around. On principle, I have no problem with this avenue either but I think deconstructing the system further might make it even harder to get for newcomers.[/quote']Depends on what we think makes it hard to get for newcomers now (to the extent that it is hard to get). Decoupling Figureds would essentially mean that there were 14 Primary Characteristics instead of 8 Primary and 6 Figured, which might be seen by some as too many entirely-distinct CHAs. But on the other hand, it would also remove some math formulas, divisions, rounding, etc. which put off some newcomers. It's probably a wash, IMO. Or maybe a little simpler with just one kind of CHA.

[Kenn]

Re: Strength as a Figured Characteristic

 

Well, I like figured. And just for S&G I've been playing with making BODY a figured characteristic instead.

 

CON would cost 3 pts. for an increase of 1 CON.

BODY would be CON/2 + STR/5 + EGO/3 (picking up that whole will to live thing), and could still be bought up at 2 pts. for 1 BODY.

STUN would be figured as BODY * 2 and could still be increased at 1 pt. per STUN.

 

I'm not sure if it would be a good idea or not, so far all I decided was that the cost of CON would have to increase because of it's increase in utility.

 

STR is included so to be comparable to Growth and Vehicles.

[DreadDomain]

Re: Strength as a Figured Characteristic

 

Depends on what we think makes it hard to get for newcomers now (to the extent that it is hard to get). Decoupling Figureds would essentially mean that there were 14 Primary Characteristics instead of 8 Primary and 6 Figured' date=' which might be seen by some as too many entirely-distinct CHAs. But on the other hand, it would also remove some math formulas, divisions, rounding, etc. which put off some newcomers. It's probably a wash, IMO. Or maybe a little simpler with just one kind of CHA.[/quote']

 

Simply decoupling Figured Characteristics has the advantage of reducing the number of Mathematical Formulas needed at Character Creation.

 

If anything I think it'd make the system look easier. It's not like other systems don't have roughly a similar number of starting numbers (D20 has the "Characteristics" plus Saves, AC, Initiative, etc).

 

I believe there are a small proportion of players that are completely put off by whatever math there is in a game but in my opinion, the biggest challenge newcomers face when the come to HERO, is the huge about of work to be done up front before you can start a campaign. You and I, playing the game for years may not think this is such a challenge but I can imagine new players and GM being totally overwhelmed by the flexibility provided. "Here are nuts and bolts for you. Build whatever you want." This a much greater offender then trying to figure out that PD=STR/5. I'd even say that for people coming from other games, it must be comforting to have ready made packages, characteristics in that case, that make sense for them.

 

That being said, and I am now dangerously threadjacking so I will try to make ity brief, I would like the HERO Rulebook (6th maybe) to be a real stripped down toolkit which decoupled figured characteristics, the powers and disadvantages systems pretty much as is (at least in philosophy) and the Skills system with standard skill rolls (x+CHA/Y) depending on game style (in other words, I would make page 11 to 15 of Ultimate Skill part of the basic toolkitting rules). It would then provide suggestions and tips on 1) how to build "packages characteristics" (like the way they are now), 2) how to build Talents, Super-Skills, Magic and Super-Powers with the Power system and 3) how to choose your base skill rolls for different campaign (so, 9+CHA/5 or 7+CHA/3?). Note that 2) is already very well covered in the actual rule book with a section on Talents and many exemples in the sidebars and 3) is already very well explained in Ultimate Skill p.11 to 15.

 

Second, I books like Turakian Age for exemple would be a little more complete. The Character Creation section on the book would not just give tips and suggestions about how you can use the rulebook to create TA characters but would spell out how the author envisionned character creation within the setting. So here are the characteristics used, how much they cost and how they influence (or not) secondary characteristics and skills, here are the TA skills and talents lists and here are the racial, cultural and professional packages available. Part of this is already well done but most of the time, they feel like incomplete suggestions about how to run the (Turakian Age) game. By making them more developped, a group could jump right in the game while another could decide to use the toolkit to tweak it to taste ("the TA book says that STR cost 2 per +1 and gives such and such but in my game (flipping throught the rulebook)... it will cost 3 per +1 and gives such and such and else.

 

Third, and by now I owe an apology to the OP for threadjacking, HeroDesigner would support that king of toolkiting. "Ok, in my game the skills will be based on 7+CHA/3 (click a checkbox), I will use this characteristic set (upload a prefab or use the characteristic builder), this skill set (prefab again), this talent set (ditto), these packages, this magic system and these spells (ditto, ditto and ditto).