Saving Throws/Resistance Rolls

[Guest Confusinator]

I'm not all the way through FH yet, but I did look in the index and did not find any reference to this.

 

Is there any reference in FH to allowing the target of a magic spell a resistance roll to prevent or reduce the effects of the spell?

 

AVLD doesn't apply directly. Maybe the based on ECV advantage gets it closer?

 

Or maybe I'm just overlooking it.

[TechnoViking]

Could just buy it as a limitation on the spell.

-1/2 (Target takes only half damage if he/she makes a CON roll)

 

Mike

[Guest Confusinator]

NND

 

What about NND - EGO Roll? For all or nothing situations.

[Ulryk]

Nice one Mike, elegant and simple.

 

maybe a penalty equal to any surplus success points on the magic roll...

[Catseye]

This one is worth lookign at on a per spell basis IMO. D&D lumps its all together but 3E kidn of makes it clear that saves mean different thinsg under different situations.

 

For instance, the saving throw for a fireball is a chance to dive out of its way. This is simply the "Dive for Cover" manuver v. an area effect (the fireball).

 

Some spells the save is mental resisatnce, in which case its really EGO combat and IMo again handled implcitly by the system through the EGO combat roll and typical effefct roll v. EGO defenses.

 

Some spells have no save at all.

 

In general I think you need to look at each spell in question and ask "what does the save here really mean?"

[Guest Keneton]

They are not needed. Saving throws are generic examples of Power Defense, Con, Body, DCV, and Dive for Cover.

 

They have no use or need in The Hero System. I do play D20 stuff and I find their inclusion to be archaiac and dated to that system. A bad rule that has outlived its use.

 

[RadeFox]

I think the save idea posted above by Mike is good. I disagree that it's in there already as Keneton posits.

 

Mage casts spells, hits target. Subtract ED and armor, apply stun and body. In Hero CON, acts to bolster body and stun somewhat, and helps with ED. In D&D this is pretty much the same as as say +2 hp per level from a 16 CON. Added toughness, harder to drop. It in no way address the luck or sheer hardiness or stubborness or fleetness that saving throws emulated.

 

Dodging for cover, is good against fireballs, for DEX, but I still think the idea of the new disad (Stat roll, for 1/2 Damage, this roll could easily be penalized just like a Skill Roll, say -1 for every 10 active points in the spell thats being resisted.) is pretty cool idea. This is a neat way for fighter types or monk types to "take it on the chin" against fortitude trying magics, or mages and priests to "stand strong' against mind blasting magics.

 

Thanks for the idea Mike, its one Im defineatly scribbling into my FH book in the magic section.

[Guest Keneton]

Originally posted by RadeFox

. It in no way address the luck or sheer hardiness or stubborness or fleetness that saving throws emulated.

 

Dodging for cover, is good against fireballs, for DEX, but I still think the idea of the new disad (Stat roll, for 1/2 Damage, this roll could easily be penalized just like a Skill Roll, say -1 for every 10 active points in the spell thats being resisted.) is pretty cool idea. This is a neat way for fighter types or monk types to "take it on the chin" against fortitude trying magics, or mages and priests to "stand strong' against mind blasting magics.

 

 

Luck is Luck. Con and Body are hardiness.

Damage Reduction can substitute for Magic Resistance.

Avoiding spells is often but not always DCV.

Mental Defense is Standing Strong against Mental attcks.

Isn't a breakout roll the same only beter? It's already there.

 

If this sounds argumanetative from an idelogical standpoint, its NOT meant to be. It is argumanetative MECHANICALLY. Why add something less concise and effective. As usual in these posts there are great IDEAS posted. Mike's is no exception. Good ideas do not ALWAYS make good mechanics.

 

D&D requires absolutes. Fantasy Hero does not. Save or die was always stupid.

 

If you did want a power to simulate this it is rather easy, but expensive) to create. I have read other post you have written and I am positive that you could easily develope such a power. Although we disagree enjoy the game!

[TechnoViking]

While I agree putting "Saving Throws" on all spells would make a FH magic system a bad D&D clone, "Saving Throws" on certain spells can be a nice effect. Maybe spells that are so unnatural, that ALL creature have a certain ammount of resistance to those spells and get a chance to "Save".

 

Mike

[AnotherSkip]

the other option would be for some people to by 50% DR Only Vs magic, only if X roll is made......

[Tempuswolf]

I don't have a page reference but FH5E talks about an optional Magic Defense Characteristic. Slap on a Based On Skill Roll limitation, instant saving throw (if you want that sort of thing).

[Mr. Negative]

Originally posted by Keneton

They are not needed. Saving throws are generic examples of Power Defense, Con, Body, DCV, and Dive for Cover.

 

They have no use or need in The Hero System. I do play D20 stuff and I find their inclusion to be archaiac and dated to that system. A bad rule that has outlived its use.

 

 

I agree that, in most circumstances, they are not needed. However, the addition of some sort of a "saving throw" mechanic makes some spell effects both acceptible (from a game balance perspective) and affordable (in terms of points).

 

Say that you want a "Death-touch" type spell that literally, always kills anything that you use it on. This is too powerful, and too effective. However, if you take that same 8d6 NND Killing attack (does body), and limit to Not if target makes EGO roll, you might get a -0.5 to -1 limitation on it, making it both more affordable and more reasonable.

 

The same goes for a lot of "All or Nothing Spells". Rather than having the effect depend on rolling well, or even rolling average, you can instead buy more dice (perhaps even apply Standard Effect rules) and limit them with a "saving throw". Maybe you have a "Polymorph into Frog" spell that will always transmute someone into a frog, unless they have a strong will.

 

I don't think this mechanism will come up too often, especially with PC spells (as few of them are sufficiently powerful to be "absolute" spells), but in this manner, you can create spells that succeed or fail based more on the victim's abilites than on the powers of the spell-caster. It's certainly not necessary (especially for normal combat spells and the like, which are reflected much better by dodging and jumping for cover), but could really be a viable mechanism for particular spell conceptions.

[Victor]

You could always use the Opposed Skill Rolls option of RSR, too. Buy it for all of the spell's effect, or just part of it, and you're all set.

 

It doesn't need to be based on the same skill used to cast the spell, either. You could have the caster using their Magic Skill roll, and the target make a DEX/CON/Acrobatics/Whatever roll.

 

You could also build an AVLD attack, and specify the defense as "how much the target makes a DEX roll by", or something similar.

 

 

The biggest argument against adding in lots of "defensive" die rolls, IMO, is that it makes combats take that much longer to resolve. Especially when you start applying them to Area Effect powers.

[CourtFool]

Re: Saving Throws/Resistance Rolls

 

Revive and old thread, why don't I.

 

I have seen enough D&D conversion threads floating around I thought this might be relevant.

 

I am with Keneton. I do not think Saving Throws are needed. That being said another solution I propose would be added defense against particular spells with a RSR.

 

• Damage Reduction w/Requires Dex Roll
  
• Mental Defense w/Requires Ego Roll
  
• Power Defense w/Requires Con Roll (since this would probably be used against a Transform into a Toad type spell)
  

[Steve Long]

Re: Saving Throws/Resistance Rolls

 

There are no rules for "saving throws" in FH, as many people have pointed out (and cited good reasons for).

 

However, if you check out my HEROglyphs column in DH #18, you'll find an article I wrote about that very subject -- "avoidance rolls" (as I called 'em) in the HERO System. I don't think they're necessary as a part of the system, but that's how I'd do 'em if forced to.

[Markdoc]

Re: Saving Throws/Resistance Rolls

 

I was faced with this conundrum when translating Runequest magic over to Hero - the problem there is that for many spells you have to "overcome your target's magic points" - which is essentially a saving throw.

 

On thinking about it I agree you don't need/want saving throws as a general mechanic (although the suggestion of a -1/2 limit to reduce or avoid the effect of some spells is a good one - I use it for some mental magics).

 

The reason is that in most cases, in systems like RQ or DnD a spell always hits. The saving throw then takes account of effect.

 

In Hero, you have to roll to hit - and even after (if) the spell takes effect it can still be modified (by defences, by adjustment powers, etc).

 

So although the special effect is different, the mechanic is identical: cast your spell, roll dice to see effect on target.

 

cheers, Mark

[Vondy]

Re: Saving Throws/Resistance Rolls

 

For some spells having the target make a roll to resist them, be it con or ego, is apropriate. Not all spells, certainly, but suggesting the notion is D&D-esque and therefore inherently unclean is 1) based on a personal dislike for D&D, and 2) assumes there are no spell effects out there where making a resistance roll is appropriate. Not every concept in D&D is unclean and there are spells out there where these sorts of effects are good simulation of effects. Not all spells, certainly, but situations where it works - and is even cool - are out there.

 

And... there are people out there who enjoy the D&D ethos of play, but don't want to use D20. I'm a harniac when it comes to fantasy so I'm not one of them, but hey - to each his own. Why shouldn't they use Hero to model the style of play they prefer? Hero is a superior system and if they do its more money in DOJ's pockets, which means more money for the DOJ-nics to live on and more money for them to produce more hero products with. It also means, as they adjust to new system realities, a lot of D&D like mechanics will fade away and they'll be able to refine their game to their own beholder's perfection.

 

I wouldn't care to play in a D&D ethos game, be it run in any sysem, but I won't begrudge others their own sense of fun. The fact that I don't enjoy it doesn't mean they don't. More power to them.

[Hierax]

Re: Saving Throws/Resistance Rolls

 

FWIW, when I bother to, here's what I use for simulating Saving Throws:

http://www.hierax.com/hero/house/saving_throws.pdf

It combines (and expands upon) Steve Long and Bob Greenwade's versions.

 

Sure, it's not for everyone (e.g., Zarglif-like entities), I'll grant, but for those who do want to bother to simulate the concept I think it does a good job of it. Lemme know what you think...

[CourtFool]

Re: Saving Throws/Resistance Rolls

 

Not all spells' date=' certainly, but suggesting the notion is D&D-esque and therefore inherently unclean is 1) based on a personal dislike for D&D, and 2) assumes there are no spell effects out there where making a resistance roll is appropriate.[/quote']

But...D&D is unclean.

[Rapier]

Re: Saving Throws/Resistance Rolls

 

This would require a nod from the GM, but purchase some Damage Redux with activation rolls.

 

 

Damage Redux - 50% (-6 Only vs Dragon Breath)

Damage Redux - 50% (-1 Only vs Magic **)

Damage Redux - 50% (-3 Only vs Sleep and Charm - Sleep SFX NNDs and Mind Control)

 

etc.

 

If you HAD to. Personally I don't think it's necessary.

 

** This would require a great deal of OKing from the GM since "Magic" as an SFX actually can cover a host of different types of attacks that would normally be defended by r/PD, r/ED, Flash Def, Mental Def, Power Def, Desol, Invis...etc.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Saving Throws/Resistance Rolls

 

I agree that a specific extra mechanic is not needed to emulate Saving Throws in HERO. I think many people are getting too caught up in mechanics though.

 

Take for example an Illusion Spell. From my old memory of D&D 1st ed. Depending on the level of the Caster as well as the particular spell being used there may or may NOT be a saving throw possibility for the illusion.

 

Hero has a few very specific examples of powers with absolute effects that might apply in this case...

 

Invisibility, Shapeshift and Darkness ALL have near absolute effects unless countered by an unknown* (*like magic resistance?)

 

Also, all# could be built with Images instead which does NOT have absolute effects.

(# this would require house-ruling to allow Images to mimic Darkness since it is technically illegal by the book!)

Combat wise, attacks with NND vs. AVLD or even different types of Transforms could skirt the line between absolute or partial success.

 

Normal attacks like Fireball really don't measure up in a comparison unless you consider the way the HERO version might be built. If it is built as an RKA should it also have sticky or other fire based extras paid for. Does the defender's armor provide protection from fire? (should the Fireball have AVLD?)

 

Remember

[Hit Points + Armor Class + Saving Throws]

are equivalent to

[bODY + Defenses + DCV]

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Saving Throws/Resistance Rolls

 

I was faced with this conundrum when translating Runequest magic over to Hero - the problem there is that for many spells you have to "overcome your target's magic points" - which is essentially a saving throw.

When translating Runequest magic to Hero, I used an Opposed Skill Roll.

[Markdoc]

Re: Saving Throws/Resistance Rolls

 

What I did for RQ was:

 

a) make all offensive spells BOECV. Since the spells are all heavily limited,this was not too punitive, and it fits the game: if they're in range you can zap them. There's no range mod.s

 

Say EGO = POW. Thus, as you cast more spells your EGO went down, making it harder for you to affect other people, easier for them to affect you and also making it easier for spirits and so on to possess you.

 

Simple, crude, but surprisingly effective.

 

cheers, Mark