Social resolution mechanics for Hero

[Markdoc]

Re: Social resolution mechanics for Hero

 

Hm' date=' I don't agree with you on that. I think self esteem is better represented by PRE. Good looks don't always equal high self esteem. In fact, I don't think it's even that common.[/quote']

 

Based on simple observation: people (of either sex) who are (or think they are) more attractive, tend to be pickier about who they will let pick them up. In this situation COM as the resistance stat makes sense (to me, at least). It wouldn't help in a case where the social interaction involved wasn't largely physical. Self esteem isn't a monolithic construct - how people feel about themselves is also context dependant.

 

cheers, Mark

[nexus]

Re: Social resolution mechanics for Hero

 

Hm' date=' I don't agree with you on that. I think self esteem is better represented by PRE. Good looks don't always equal high self esteem. In fact, I don't think it's even that common.[/quote']

 

Presence and Ego seem to be the two good counters (force of personality and one's sense of self)

 

Based on simple observation: people (of either sex) who are (or think they are) more attractive, tend to be pickier about who they will let pick them up. In this situation COM as the resistance stat makes sense (to me, at least). It wouldn't help in a case where the social interaction involved wasn't largely physical. Self esteem isn't a monolithic construct - how people feel about themselves is also context dependant.

 

cheers, Mark

 

I think all three of you have good points. That is one of one stumbling blocks about social mechanics; different people have very different impressions how social interaction "really" works. The same applies to physical interaction too, of course but IME, most gamers are more willing to be flexible on that issue then with social.

 

Probably due in part in that everyone hasn't done some physical things (say advanced hand to hand combat) but generally everyone has experienced and/or closely observed various types of social interaction

 

Any system is going to be an abstraction of a pretty complicated (and still not fully understood process) so it boils down to what assumptions you want to make and how explain the exceptions.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Social resolution mechanics for Hero

 

Hey' date=' why don't we house rule that PCs can never be disadvantaged or inconvenienced in any way without the player's advance written consent? I'm sure that would spare a lot of disappointment.[/quote']

 

Small amendment for clarity.

[Tonio]

Re: Social resolution mechanics for Hero

 

Based on simple observation: people (of either sex) who are (or think they are) more attractive, tend to be pickier about who they will let pick them up. In this situation COM as the resistance stat makes sense (to me, at least). It wouldn't help in a case where the social interaction involved wasn't largely physical. Self esteem isn't a monolithic construct - how people feel about themselves is also context dependant.

 

cheers, Mark

 

I think this reflects something more like COM being a complimentary roll here, otherwise low COM, high PRE (ugly but imposing) targets would be incongruously easy to pick up, while high COM, low PRE (shy beauties) would be inordinately resistant to seduction.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Social resolution mechanics for Hero

 

Social interaction systems should work the same way on PCs and NPCs.

 

There should be a mechanic for blowing it - it doesn't matter how gullible the mark is, eventually they will stop trusting you if you abuse them. Equally a mechanic for earning trust could be useful and rather tasty.

 

Hero could do with some sort of 'resistance' skills or talents for social interaction, and perhaps some talents with certain types of social approach: EGO/PRE is too broad a brush to properly define the nuances of character involved.

 

Other than that Hero is pretty good.

[Egyptoid]

Re: Social resolution mechanics for Hero

 

what are the Hero equivalents of the DnD skills:

 

Sense Motive

Gather Information

[Sean Waters]

Re: Social resolution mechanics for Hero

 

what are the Hero equivalents of the DnD skills:

 

Sense Motive

Gather Information

 

Sense motive would be a PER roll with appropriate backup skills (bodylanguage, psychology, whatever).

 

Gather information is probably something you'd role play, but if you wanted to make it a single roll, high society or streetwise, probably.

[archermoo]

Re: Social resolution mechanics for Hero

 

Sense motive would be a PER roll with appropriate backup skills (bodylanguage, psychology, whatever).

 

Analyse: Motive would also work.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Social resolution mechanics for Hero

 

Persuasion is pretty useful at sussing out whether someone is being deceptive, so that might be a good starting point for "sense motive".

Conversation enables the user to get someone to talk about something they normally wouldn't, so that's a good starting point for "gather information". Streetwise, High Society and Contacts are also good for this.

[Markdoc]

Re: Social resolution mechanics for Hero

 

I think this reflects something more like COM being a complimentary roll here' date=' otherwise low COM, high PRE (ugly but imposing) targets would be incongruously easy to pick up, while high COM, low PRE (shy beauties) would be inordinately resistant to seduction.[/quote']

 

Yeah, in retrospect (I wrote the initial post in a minute or two without thinking about it too much) this would be the way to go.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Social resolution mechanics for Hero

 

Sense motive would be a PER roll with appropriate backup skills (bodylanguage, psychology, whatever).

 

Gather information is probably something you'd role play, but if you wanted to make it a single roll, high society or streetwise, probably.

 

Analyse: Motive would also work.

 

Yep: I have a character in the current FH game that has this power, justified as "excellent judge of character, can read body language well".

 

"Gather information" is context dependant - streetwise for gathering rumors off the street, high society for gathering it during a formal dinner, Computing for extracting it from a database, conversation for extracting it from some guy in a bar and interrogation from some guy chained to a wall.... It's not really a skill per se as a description of what you use skills for.

 

In D20, though, it's described as "An evening’s time, a few gold pieces for buying drinks and making friends, and a DC 10 Gather Information check get you a general idea of a city’s major news items" which is closest to streetwise.

 

cheers, Mark

[Egyptoid]

Re: Social resolution mechanics for Hero

 

Plus I forgot:

 

Bluff

Intimidate

Diplomacy

[archermoo]

Re: Social resolution mechanics for Hero

 

Plus I forgot:

 

Bluff

Intimidate

Diplomacy

 

I'd need to know what the mechanics for the D&D version of Bluff and Intimidate, but Persuasion should certainly work for Diplomacy.

[nexus]

Re: Social resolution mechanics for Hero

 

what are the Hero equivalents of the DnD skills:

 

What I'd use

 

Sense Motive

 

Analyze: Motive

Deduction

 

Gather Information

 

Depending on the context

 

Conversation

Streetwise

High Society

Interrogation

 

Bribery and Seduction could also be useful.

 

 

 

Plus I forgot:

 

Bluff

 

Persuasion

 

Intimidate

 

Pre Attack

 

Diplomacy

 

High Society

Persuasion

Conversation

Seduction

Bribery

[Egyptoid]

Re: Social resolution mechanics for Hero

 

Nexus = Smarticool

 

this is what I'm using, and I know its a hack, but

I've got a lot of DnD players in my group.

[b]HERO SKILL - - - - - - - - - Dndism - - - - - - Counterskill[/b]
Deduction or Perception - - - sense motive - - -Acting
Conversation/Streetwise - - - gather info - - - Acting
Persuasion- - - - - - - - - - bluff - - - - -- Deduction
Presence Attacks- - -  - -  initimidate - - - - PRE / PRE Defense
Persuasion/Conversation- - - diplomacy - - - - Deduction

[schir1964]

Re: Social resolution mechanics for Hero

 

If one were to create a Social System for use in RPGs then it would have to be built on the basis that a Character can influence the decisions/opinions of other Characters.

 

Thus we must first decide the depth/breadth that a character's "influence" may have in the system.

 

Once that is decided then obviously a decision needs to be made on how to handle Resistance/Defense to such "influence".

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: Social resolution mechanics for Hero

 

Social System

A social system allows a character to influence other characters decisions/opinions via social interaction.

 

Components Of Influence In A Social System

Exposure: This represents the number of people a character can influence.

Power: This represents the resources the character can bring to bear to influence others.

Scale: This is a figured value that represents the level of influence in the campaign.

 

Things that would count towards Exposure would be: Perks: Contacts, Perks: Positions Of Import, Reputations, Communication Skills/Powers, and so forth.

Things that would count towards Power would be: Perks: Wealth, Perks: Accessibility To Technology, Perks: Positions Of Import, and so forth.

 

Modifiers

Limited Group (Varies): This limitation represent an influence that is restricted to a group of individuals or an organization.

Limited By Region (Varies): This limitation represents an influence that is restricted by regional boundaries.

 

More to come...

 

For Nexus

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: Social resolution mechanics for Hero

 

Updated post.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Chris-M]

Re: Social resolution mechanics for Hero

 

Like Doc, I would be very interested in seeing a system for group social dynamics (groups in the sense of institutions large and small, not in the sense of an adventuring party).

 

As for individual interaction, my thinking tends to be along the same line as Mark's. If a roleplaying goal, such as trying to get Lord Fancypants to reveal where he's getting his information on the Tightwad Merchants, is an extremely important campaign point, then as a GM I'm going to set up something big and dramatic, like a ball or a jousting tournament or whatever is appropriate, that lends itself to a layered, slow-building sequence that will require several skill checks at the very least. Like others, I find Hero perfectly satisfactory in this regard, but I don't pay too much attention to the time requirements or whatever. I assign modifiers based on what makes sense to me.

 

I will say that, like nexus, I have certainly had problems with players balking at themselves being the targets of social interaction skills. While Mark's suggestions are awesome, and I definitely want to try using some of them soon, I have had players in specific situations with whom even those ideas would not work.

 

One thing I try to do now when starting a campaign is that after characters are made but before we actually start playing, I like to sit down with all of the players and talk about what my intentions are with the campaign, the style I'm going to employ in running it, what I expect from the players, and so forth. Sometimes are first session is nothing but this "orientation." One of the things that I like to cover is this issue of things like NPCs using social interaction skills or charm magic or mind control on the player characters, and how I expect the players to handle it. Needless to say, this doesn't eliminate all problems that crop up later in the heat of gaming, but it does seem to preempt most of them, and I can always have a one-on-one with a frustrated player later and remind him or her of what we talked about when the campaign began. Also, since I'm not a jam-the-players-up kind of GM, I always remind and promise them that player characters will always have the opportunity to turn the tables or have their revenge if a particular NPC's actions really bother them, and I stick by that since it makes for good heroic fiction (all I'm promising is the opportunity -- it's up to them to act on it successfully).

 

Getting back to nexus' original questions, I think part of the problem is that this issue hits directly on the whole roleplaying-versus-mechanics problem -- if you're trying to promote play-acting style roleplaying, or that's your group's normal MO, do you go with the roleplaying or what the mechanics dictate? My solution to this dilemma has been to adopt a "Bonus Not Penalties" approach -- I encourage players to roleplay out an encounter using a social skill and if they do a good job or do/say something particularly clever, I'll give a bonus to their skill check when they make their roll, but if their roleplaying is bad or comically inept, I might, at most, point out that the character would no better than to actually do that and then let the player roll without a penalty for roleplaying (this of course doesn't apply to overt acts like hitting someone upside the head with a bottle).

 

Of course, this just further demonstrates how subjective this aspect of gaming is. I don't know how you get around that beyond making it a completely crunchy and mechanic-driven part of the experience, but I can't imagine that would be very satisfying for most gamers.

[Egyptoid]

Re: Social resolution mechanics for Hero

 

I still find this stuff useful

[Vondy]

Re: Social resolution mechanics for Hero

 

Sense motive would be a PER roll with appropriate backup skills (bodylanguage, psychology, whatever).

 

Gather information is probably something you'd role play, but if you wanted to make it a single roll, high society or streetwise, probably.

 

I have several social related skills I use for "presence based characters."

 

Human Perception is the one that fits what you are describing.

 

I've also used Body Language or a more general Observation from time to time.

[Ice9]

Re: Social resolution mechanics for Hero

 

One thing I'd like to see is more of a middle ground in social mechanics. Most social systems I've seen are either purely optional for the PCs, or else are incredibly "deadly" - if they were a physical combat system, they would look like this:

 

* You usually fight alone, and against opponents who may be stronger than you, and you often can't judge that ahead of time.

* Retreat is often impossible.

* While death is rare, lasting injuries are common - expect to walk away with at least a limp, and quite possibly maimed.

 

So I'd like to see a social system with a clear distinction between losing a social conflict and taking lasting effects from one. And damage to the character concept is certainly a lasting effect.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Social resolution mechanics for Hero

 

I'm working designing a more in depth social resolution for Hero System 5th and I thought it would be a good idea to get feedback on what makes a good social resolution system from a variety of sources. I understand that some consider social resolution systems a poor idea overall and, while I respect that opinion, it doesn't really contribute what I hope to gain from this thread.

 

That out of the way, here are some (very) basic questions.

 

1. What "sells" a social conflict system to you? What features would hook you almost immediately?

 

2 What is a deal breaker when it comes to social mechanics? Is there anything that would be an instant turn off?

 

3. What is your favorite system for social mechanics (if any)?

 

4. If you have a favorite set of social mechanics, what's your biggest complaint about it (if any)?

 

5. How would you ideal social mechanics system function? It doesn't have to practical or even realistically playable but an ideal.

 

I'm going to try and answer before reading the rest of the thread EDIT - although I note I've already contributed tot eh thread - is this a necro?

 

First, by way of general preamble: you need to decide if a social conflict system can give 'compulsory' results: I'm really not keen on social skills only working on NPCs.

 

Second you need the flexibility to use a social conflict system as the central mechanic of a given game, or as a peripheral part of a game with a different focus (eg a combat based game) without the system slowing situation resolution down too much.

 

 

SO...

 

 

1. What "sells" a social conflict system to you? What features would hook you almost immediately?

 

I want a simple to administer and interpret mechanic with a large range of possible, logical results. I want the ability to use personality as part of a social mechanic: it should generally be hard to persuade someone with a Code v Killing to kill someone, to take an extreme example. I'd be interested to see a radically different system for social mechanics, perhaps one based on cards, something quite mechanically different. That is not a deal-closer though.

 

2. What is a deal breaker when it comes to social mechanics? Is there anything that would be an instant turn off?

 

 

I'm not keen on mirroring the physical combat system for social mechanics because, first I think it will slow things down too mcuh and require too mcuh extra book keeping, second I do not like the idea that if you keep on banging on at someone they will eventually do what you want, as that does not seem realistic to me. However, I remain open to persuasion that it could work

 

I don't want social resolution to be too powerful, at least too 'overtly' powerful.

 

 

3. What is your favorite system for social mechanics (if any)?

 

I tend to just use role playing rather than skill rolls for most social mechanics. I haven't really seen one system that 'does' it for me, although i've seen elements in lots of different systems that I like.

 

4. If you have a favorite set of social mechanics, what's your biggest complaint about it (if any)?

 

See above.

 

5. How would you ideal social mechanics system function? It doesn't have to practical or even realistically playable but an ideal.

 

OK. First of all it would have to be a system that everyone was subject to the results of, or it is pointless to my way of thinking.

 

Hmm. Let me clarify that. Arguably you could have a perfectly valid social resolution system for NPCs the GM has not fleshed out, and so only they are subject to it - but that would be unsatisfactory to me: why bother with a decent system if it is only going to be used to determine the reactions of unimportant characters?

 

Second it would have to take into consideration what is important to the target character and (to a lesser extent) what is important to the instigator. In other words I'd like the system to be flexible enough to react differently to different people, based on 'fixed' traits, like personality, and 'variable' traits, like their current situation and mood.

 

Finally I'd like the approach of the instigator to matter a great deal: sometimes an aggressive, intimidating approach might be best, or a pleading tone, or an appeal to vanity, or pride, or prejudice: that will vary from target to target, but an accomplished social instigator should have a range of social approaches that they can take to deal with different targets. This could well take some actual player skill to judge what the best approach is for a given target; if you want to get by a guard you might try Bluff: I'm here on official business, or Misdirection: Oh, officer, could you help me, I'm terribly lost..., but something like trting to just cajole the guard into letting you by should be unlikely to work because the guard would have no incentive to do so.

 

I suppose, in summary, the application and results of a social interaction system would have to be broadly predictable, within a given situation. I don't like th eidea of someone being SO accomlpished socially that they can get anyone do do anything they want at the drop of a hat - that is what Mind Control is for.

 

One other thought: it would be nice if some place could be found for emotion, both in terms of causing someone to feel an emotion and in terms of emotion making social success more of less likely.

[dmjalund]

Re: Social resolution mechanics for Hero

 

use reputation as a "flavoured" attribute based on the points spent. An insult - or similar - can damage positive reputations, exacerbate negative reputations, and a well told lie can create an entirely new (usually negative) reputation. These get "healed" like body damage.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Social resolution mechanics for Hero

 

In terms of bonuses for role-playing/acting out the skill use, I think a good GM should consider the relative skill of the player and "curve" the bonus accordingly. IOW, a player who's a natural at RP should of course get a bonus, but he shouldn't necessarily get a better bonus than the player who's a bit flat at it but nonetheless makes a real effort at acting out the scene. I've played in games where GMs credited PCs for the skills their players had, and where if the player couldn't figure it out, neither could their PC, despite the 50 points of relevant sciences, deduction, INT and knowledge skills. Kinda sucked, imo.

I also think it's true that, on balance, social interaction skills don't quite function like mind control--they tend to take a lot more time, it's much more difficult to accomplish dramatic effects, the effort can be disrupted more easily, and while persons under the influence of mental powers may do precisely what you want them to, those under the influence of, say, cult-leader brainwashing may simply do what they think their leader wants them to do. There is a mechanic for an NPC who's so under the influence of the wiles of a character that they readily obey them--they become a follower and the character pays the points for it.

 

I do recall looking over the negative mods listed for Seduction in Ultimate Skill and having a "WTF moment"--3 hours base time to persuade someone to come to bed with you, and then it's at a -4? That means a character walking into a bar, with a 12- roll, who just invested 3 hours of game time in talking up some attractive NPC, has a 2 in 3 chance of striking out. Methinks there should be some cultural and situational mods invoked there--is that really a 3 hours/-4 situation in a typical nightclub in modern times? Does the Hero Games editorial staff need to get out more?