Completely Undetectable

[Doc Samson]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

Well, they (the Skrulls) aren't totally undetectable...Secret Invasion Spoiler.

 

As far as in game stuff, just to go off on a tangent, we have made a division between Undetectable and Untargetable in our game. Too many Invisible Desolid types (including Transdimensionals, Tunneling Mentalists, and Space Snipers) caused us to create our first of a very short list of house rules, you have to actually attend the scene to play.

 

The rule has caused our super-stealthy types to invest more heavily in Images, Darkness, Shape Shift, ect. Because of our small group size, this made worlds of difference as the GM actually now has players to play to. Nothing was more frustrating for me as a GM than in past days when I would say "Ok, we are dropping into Phase 12" and everyone else at the table (even the damn Brick) on their DEX would say "I turn Invisible" or some equivalent.

[Checkmate]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

I guess my take on this, is why would a GM ever have to use this? Just say no one ever thought to check. It was done well enough that a cursory examination didn't detect anything and no one had reason to probe further. If the PC's decide to probe further, you just have to make the disguise good enough where THEY can't detect it, then make them unable to convince anyone else.

[Dr. Confoundo]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

My take on the Secret Invasion? I think having EVERYONE be fooled by their shenanigans may have been going too far. Fool Wolvie's sense of smell? Great. Iron Man's sensors? Sure. But BOTH Xavier and Doc Strange? Thats a little far-fetched to me' date=' even for Marvel continuity. [/quote']

 

Well, in this case, the Skrulls had both Professor X and Dr. Strange held captive for an unknown length of time some time soon after the Kree/Skrull War - long enough to do full genetic/mental scans of them, and have had years to examine the data.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

The Spirit of the 3D-Man will save us all!

[bubba smith]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

only one problem the chandler brothers no longer serves as 3d man TRIATHALON now uses that code name he dosen't have the skrull detection powers

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

Well' date=' in this case, the Skrulls had both Professor X and Dr. Strange held captive for an unknown length of time some time soon after the Kree/Skrull War - long enough to do full genetic/mental scans of them, and have had years to examine the data.[/quote']

 

That should work for Xavier, but no amount of scientific scanning/probing/testing should reveal anything mystical. Strange should come up as nothing more than a regular human to anything the Skrulls have at their disposal.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

That should work for Xavier' date=' but no amount of scientific scanning/probing/testing should reveal anything mystical. Strange should come up as nothing more than a regular human to anything the Skrulls have at their disposal.[/quote']

 

It's possible the Skrulls might have used someone else's intel on Strange, or possibly learned magic by now. Anybody can learn magic, it's just a matter of time, drive, and 'aptitude' (like how some people are 'natural athletes'), and having a way to learn it.

[Badger]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

It's okay if it makes sense within the setting. Having skrulls somehow able to out-magic the Sorceror Supreme doesn't' date=' however. The situation looks less like an incredibly clever and fiendish plot and more like a grasped straw to save an assed up story line.[/quote']

 

 

Right, what I was thinking. If Dr. Strange cant detect it is a railroaded story. Maybe they are just trying to top Civil War in lameness.

[Badger]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

Doesn't the GM have discretion to bypass player powers every now and again, without giving them extra Disadd points, if it makes a good story? For example, Heatwave, Master of Fire, uses nothing but fiery blasts to fight crime... but what happens when he runs up against the Mighty Molten Men, who are effectively immune to heat and fire? Would you as Heatwave's player feel cheated or frustrated because you couldn't melt the Molten Men?

 

Using competely undetectable characters on a regular basis without good reason/compensation is probably a bad idea, but what about for one storyline? I'm sure that at the end of the Secret Invasion storyline, one of the big brains is going to find a way to see through the Skrull's ability... we just haven't gotten to that point yet.

 

And if there is supposed to be a way to tell the difference between the real thing and the imposter, I'm not sure that ability to play the saxaphone would be enough of a hint. While that GM might have thought he was being clever, it's not hard to imagine that that solution would never in a million years come up to the players.

 

For Kenn's post. I think the mentalist should have when reading the mind been able to "see" that the clone lacked the knowledge to play the sax. Unless, the character has some disadvantage where he cant tell if a brain has not ever learned to play a musical instrument or not.

[Kirby]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

Doesn't the GM have discretion to bypass player powers every now and again' date=' without giving them extra Disadd points, if it makes a good story? For example, Heatwave, Master of Fire, uses nothing but fiery blasts to fight crime... but what happens when he runs up against the Mighty Molten Men, who are effectively immune to heat and fire? Would you as Heatwave's player feel cheated or frustrated because you couldn't melt the Molten Men?[/quote']Speaking from experience, I say that's a load. There aren't any true absolutes in the game system. You can't be completely immune to any sfx because there are always builds to get around it.

 

Your examples are not congruent with the Skrulls example. If you have a mentalist fight a robot, that's one thing; it happens.

 

However, if you have "Evil Army" go up against the Champions and each one has:

 

Difficult to Dispel on their Electrical Powers

Invisibility to Infrared

Lack of Weakness

Rigid Armor or PD Force Field

Flash Defense

Hardened Defenses

Self-Contained Breathing

Power Defense

Mental Defense

 

Then each one has effectively bypassed the Champions' special abilities/attacks.

 

One person having this as a schtick is genre; an entire race? Cheese even calls it lame.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

It's possible the Skrulls might have used someone else's intel on Strange' date=' or possibly learned magic by now. Anybody can learn magic, it's just a matter of time, drive, and 'aptitude' (like how some people are 'natural athletes'), and having a way to learn it.[/quote']

 

Possible, I suppose. It doesn't feel right, though, for Skrulls to suddenly become a race of magicians. That's overstepping their schtick.

[gmurie]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

Maybe my experiences have been different than others, but it seems to me like most players build their characters with some sort of super-sense. (Which are usually there so that the character won't be helpless when flashed/blinded/whatever, but there's always a smattering of the 'Detect Evil' or 'Danger Sense' types as well.)

 

And I wouldn't do this just out of the blue (or on a regular basis), unless it's specifically the schtick for a specific enemy. But if the bad guys find out over time what super-senses your team uses to kick their collective butts on a regular basis, isn't it tactically smart to figure out a way to get around them?

 

Just to drag things back on topic. My usual approach as GM is to have a copy of all the character sheets, and look at them for odd and "useless" skills or powers that are added strictly for role playing reasons. Say for example one of the PC's takes PS:Cobbler for his brick who was turned into a giant metal man after hammering a radioactive nail into his thumb.

 

At some point I'd make it work for that PC. Have him recognize a bad guy by his gait or the shoes he's wearing.

 

In other words, I wouldn't pore over the PC's abilities trying to shut down their every single option for detecting the bad guys. I'd pour over them to block all but handful of interesting and rarely used skills or powers so the players feel that it's worthwhile to play CHARACTERS in my game as opposed to OIF+OIHID monstrosities with no skills.

 

Yes, I'm aware that OIF + OIHID is no longer allowed, but you get the idea.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

Speaking from experience, I say that's a load. There aren't any true absolutes in the game system. You can't be completely immune to any sfx because there are always builds to get around it.

 

Your examples are not congruent with the Skrulls example. If you have a mentalist fight a robot, that's one thing; it happens.

 

However, if you have "Evil Army" go up against the Champions and each one has:

 

Difficult to Dispel on their Electrical Powers

Invisibility to Infrared

Lack of Weakness

Rigid Armor or PD Force Field

Flash Defense

Hardened Defenses

Self-Contained Breathing

Power Defense

Mental Defense

 

Then each one has effectively bypassed the Champions' special abilities/attacks.

 

One person having this as a schtick is genre; an entire race? Cheese even calls it lame.

While I agree an entire race having this kind of thing is going beyond cheese, a villain team or robot (Mechanon?) purpose-designed by a master villain to fight the Champions wouldn't necessarily be cheesy at all. It could be an attempt by the GM to make the Champions learn some new tricks or try some unusual tactics to beat the new opponents instead of falling back on their same-old tried and true "unusual" attacks. If you win every fight using the same few attacks, sooner or later someone is going to (quite reasonably) come up with counters to those attacks.

[Kirby]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

While I agree an entire race having this kind of thing is going beyond cheese' date=' a villain team or robot (Mechanon?) purpose-designed by a master villain to fight the Champions wouldn't necessarily be cheesy at all. It could be an attempt by the GM to make the Champions learn some new tricks or try some unusual tactics to beat the new opponents instead of falling back on their same-old tried and true "unusual" attacks. If you win every fight using the same few attacks, sooner or later someone is going to (quite reasonably) come up with counters to those attacks.[/quote']That's why I stated "If you have a mentalist fight a robot, that's one thing; it happens," and "One person having this as a schtick is genre."

 

An individual is genre. (That's how Booster Gold "earned" his way into the Justice League before it went International.) An entire organization/species: lame.

[Dr. Confoundo]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

An individual is genre. (That's how Booster Gold "earned" his way into the Justice League before it went International.) An entire organization/species: lame.

 

Well, think about it terms of a campaign: an alien species of dopplegangers who your team has fought a dozen times before suddenly finds a way to make themselves immune to the detection methods that always used to work. The adventure isn't just 'What are they going to do?' but also 'How do we track them?', as well as 'Who can we trust?'. At the end of the adventure, the team has found a way to negate whatever safeguards they used, and everything is honky dory.

[Kirby]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

Well' date=' think about it terms of a campaign: an alien species of dopplegangers who your team has fought a dozen times before suddenly finds a way to make themselves immune to the detection methods that always used to work. The adventure isn't just 'What are they going to do?' but also 'How do we track them?', as well as 'Who can we trust?'. At the end of the adventure, the team has found a way to negate whatever safeguards they used, and everything is honky dory.[/quote']So Dr. Destroyer using magic would be acceptable if it were a new way to beat the PCs? Nope, still lame, in my opinion. And "a new way" would be one way, not "hey, we've discovered how to be completely undetectable to EVERY known way out there, including areas we've never studied before. We're so uber." Just another Marvel lame attempt. And I've been in campaigns where the DM pulled this junk so that "his story" would work better, regardless of every action we took. One such lame fiat was that we couldn't even attack an enemy unless every player was present. Not that we couldn't hit, not that we couldn't damage, but that we couldn't attack.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

you know, Dire Wraiths are magic using Skrulls...

[Dr. Confoundo]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

So Dr. Destroyer using magic would be acceptable if it were a new way to beat the PCs?

 

Why not? Dr. Doom uses magic, and Dr. Destroyer is just a Doom analog.

[csyphrett]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

Why not? Dr. Doom uses magic' date=' and Dr. Destroyer is just a Doom analog.[/quote']

 

Because Dr. Destroyer is a ninety year old super scientist who has never used it before, has never shown any aptitude for it, and has psych limits to prevent it.

 

A more extreme example is Mechanon. If Mechanon suddenly started using magic as a new attack, most people would look at their gm and say WTH>

CES

[Bloodstone]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

Because Dr. Destroyer is a ninety year old super scientist who has never used it before' date=' has never shown any aptitude for it, and has psych limits to prevent it.[/quote']

 

What Psychological Disadvantage would that be exactly?

 

http://www.champions-online.com/villains/doctor_destroyer

 

(this is not to say that the mysterious new energy IS magical in nature, but it's possible)

[Kirby]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

Because Dr. Destroyer is a ninety year old super scientist who has never used it before' date=' has never shown any aptitude for it, and has psych limits to prevent it.[/quote']

What Psychological Disadvantage would that be exactly?

"[Doctor Destroyer] reserves his particular hatred for... groups like DEMON which rely on magic instead of technology (which he considers foolish and dangerous, since wiardry cannot be controlled or scientifically analyzed)." CKC, p. 9-10

 

Because magic is not his theme. It's not genre for Dr. D. to be using magic.

[Kirby]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

Why not? Dr. Doom uses magic' date=' and Dr. Destroyer is just a Doom analog.[/quote']You should probably read up on Dr. Destroyer then.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

"[Doctor Destroyer] reserves his particular hatred for... groups like DEMON which rely on magic instead of technology (which he considers foolish and dangerous, since wiardry cannot be controlled or scientifically analyzed)." CKC, p. 9-10

 

Because magic is not his theme. It's not genre for Dr. D. to be using magic.

 

So not an actual disadvantage then. Got it.

[Kirby]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

So not an actual disadvantage then. Got it.

Verbatim? No. It still probably falls under the 25 point "Utterly Convinced of His Own Superiority And Destiny To Rule The World (Very Common, Total). Considering he has a 150 pt MP with 7 slots, a 125 pt MP with 7 slots and a 90+45 VPP, he doesn't need it listed.

 

Of course, if you're sole 'point" is base on semantics, then fine. If you're actually referring to the subject and conversation, then you should (and would) realize that Dr. D. would not use Magic under any circumstance.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

No, it was simply a matter of I don't use the Dr in my games and am not really all that familiar with him.

 

When I saw somone refer to it as a psychological limitation I said to myself "I don't recall him having that".

 

So I took a quick glance at his character sheet (no background info, just his stats), didn't see such a Disadvantage and thus needed clarification, which you provided.

 

Of course, everything may change by the time 6th rolls around...