Completely Undetectable

[Dr. Confoundo]

In discussing Marvel's current Skrull Invasion over in the NGD, I got a number of responses that surprised me...

 

Spoilers for anyone who is interested in the Secret Invasion series:

We've found out that there are a number of Skrull infiltrators that have secretly replaced a number of mid to high level characters in the Marvel Universe, such as:

Spider Woman, Hank Pym, Jarvis the Butler, Captain Mar-Vell, and Elektra, among others.

 

 

Using a combination of super-science, psionics, and magic, the Skrulls have devised a way of making those infiltrators completely undetectable, to all forms and senses that we've seen so far, as long as they stay in their disguises and don't ever revert to their Skrull forms. So far we've been shown that they are undetectable to Spiderman's Danger Sense, Wolverine's sense of smell, Iron Man and the Avengers Mansion's sensors, Dr. Strange's magic, and Professor X's psychic powers.

 

We don't know how many of these Skrulls there are on Earth, probably a lot, including at least a few more big names.

 

 

In discussing this storyline, some posters expressed dislike for making characters undetectable by all methods, and at least one implied that he would walk out of a campaign if he encountered something like this.

 

Is it bad form for a GM to have a character be undetectable, or to baffle super senses that the player's have bought?

[Shigeru]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

I wouldn't find it terribly distasteful as long as the GM had a reasonably plausible explanation for it. Suffice it to say that with ALL those immunities to detection, I would be a frustrated player, but I would understand if the end justified it.

 

Of course, in the end it may have been the GMs plan to reveal a heretofore unknown "weakness" in the immunity after the danger and some specific damages had been wrought. In those cases, I may not agree with it, but its the GMs means of propelling the world in his desired direction and sometimes that requires creative solutions.

 

Of course, I expect better from Marvel than from a part-time GM. But that's expectations for you.

[Kenn]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

It *might* be in bad form.

 

If the character actually has Shape Shift, Images, or Invisibility vs the affected special senses, then it's less likely to be in bad form...

 

If several characters have Shape Shift, Images, or Invisibility vs the affected special senses, then it's probably bad form.

 

If the "exploitable weakness" makes no sense, then it's bad form.

 

I've been there.

 

Viper had a clone of Bill Clinton. The Defenders had both the clone and the real WJC. The cloning process was apparently perfect. No differences in any bit of DNA. The duplication of knowledge/brain patterns was likely a perfect match, enough to fool our team's mentalist, and every other mentalist in every other team the Defenders were on speaking terms with. There was no way we could tell the two apart. Except...

 

The clone couldn't play the saxophone, because apparently that's where his "I secretly work for Viper" information was stored.

 

Somehow, no mentalist, with any level of telepathy could find this out, but if we had them both try to play the sax...

 

It was the weakest damned story I'd ever played in.

[OddHat]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

Two questions really, though they're pretty close (imo and all that).

 

Is it unacceptable in a gaming context? Depends on why and how the GM plays it out. If the players really do have no chance whatsoever to detect the deception, then it amounts to moderate railroading. A very good game can survive a bit of railroading, a lesser game might not. Also, the GM may not be giving the players fair value for those Detects they spent all those points on. As a GM, I'd be very cautious about it.

 

Is it unacceptable in a story context? It can be a bit of a cheat, not quite on the same level as "It was all a dream" but right up there with "It was a Thanos-bot" or "All the Cosmic Entities were playing along, so as to avoid interfering with the development of a Cosmic Cube". If it's really well done, fans will give it a pass; otherwise, they'll be pissed. If they keep buying the comics, being pissed doesn't matter to the bottom line.

 

Personally, I stopped making mine Marvel or DC around 1992 or so, though I've looked in again now and then since.

[Shigeru]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

Hmm, well...that (Kenn's post) is weak. I've had gaming sessions fizzle because I hadn't thought of something that the players immediately jumped on. But if you can';t find a way to roll with it...plausibly...then you gotta lie in your bed.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

It's okay if it makes sense within the setting. Having skrulls somehow able to out-magic the Sorceror Supreme doesn't, however. The situation looks less like an incredibly clever and fiendish plot and more like a grasped straw to save an assed up story line.

[Dr. Confoundo]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

Doesn't the GM have discretion to bypass player powers every now and again, without giving them extra Disadd points, if it makes a good story? For example, Heatwave, Master of Fire, uses nothing but fiery blasts to fight crime... but what happens when he runs up against the Mighty Molten Men, who are effectively immune to heat and fire? Would you as Heatwave's player feel cheated or frustrated because you couldn't melt the Molten Men?

 

Using competely undetectable characters on a regular basis without good reason/compensation is probably a bad idea, but what about for one storyline? I'm sure that at the end of the Secret Invasion storyline, one of the big brains is going to find a way to see through the Skrull's ability... we just haven't gotten to that point yet.

 

And if there is supposed to be a way to tell the difference between the real thing and the imposter, I'm not sure that ability to play the saxaphone would be enough of a hint. While that GM might have thought he was being clever, it's not hard to imagine that that solution would never in a million years come up to the players.

[assault]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

And if there is supposed to be a way to tell the difference between the real thing and the imposter' date=' I'm not sure that ability to play the saxaphone would be enough of a hint. While that GM might have thought he was being clever, it's not hard to imagine that that solution would never in a million years come up to the players.[/quote']

 

The trick in that situation is to make the answer obvious. Show WJC playing the saxophone, then set up a situation where the clone doesn't/can't.

 

You want to set up the situation such that the players kick themselves when they realised they missed the clue, and start looking for such things in the future.

 

You don't just rely on them to remember that WJC plays the saxophone without prompting, though.

 

It seems like almost half of all Silver Age Batman and Superman stories relied on little clues like this. That's part of what makes them fun to read - you get to look for the clues yourself!

 

Such clues need to be pretty blatantly obvious in an RPG of course. One way of achieving this might be to adopt fairly consistent ways of presenting them, so as to train the players in what to look for. Just use a few different ways of presenting the clues, so it doesn't become too repetitive too soon.

[Kirby]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

Without reading Marvel any more, but knowing of the junk they've published recently and in the past, the "completely undetectable" sounds like a liberal explanation of "cover our tracks" and "we can do what we want without explanation." In other words, it's a plot device that won't get exploited or identified until "it's time."

 

For HERO gaming, there aren't really any absolutes. No one can definitely be immune to x-type damage. For every defense, there's an offense that can get through.

 

As close to "Completely Undetectable" for Champions, I'd say Masquerade is the closest built that way. If a GM used Masquerade, then I wouldn't be upset. If a GM said "Oh, you rolled a (3 or 4) on your Skill Roll? Not enough" and used the "Completely Undetectable" as hand-waiving a build, then I'd be ticked. And I've been in a campaign where the GM had a special detachment of VIPER squad agents that were also equipped with belts of invisibility to the Sight, Sound, and Smell Group, along with 16- Stealth rolls.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

Doesn't the GM have discretion to bypass player powers every now and again, without giving them extra Disadd points, if it makes a good story? For example, Heatwave, Master of Fire, uses nothing but fiery blasts to fight crime... but what happens when he runs up against the Mighty Molten Men, who are effectively immune to heat and fire? Would you as Heatwave's player feel cheated or frustrated because you couldn't melt the Molten Men?

 

Using competely undetectable characters on a regular basis without good reason/compensation is probably a bad idea, but what about for one storyline? I'm sure that at the end of the Secret Invasion storyline, one of the big brains is going to find a way to see through the Skrull's ability... we just haven't gotten to that point yet.

 

And if there is supposed to be a way to tell the difference between the real thing and the imposter, I'm not sure that ability to play the saxaphone would be enough of a hint. While that GM might have thought he was being clever, it's not hard to imagine that that solution would never in a million years come up to the players.

That's not it though. This isn't Johnny Storm vs Firelord and he has to find another way to beat the guy... this is a mystery scenario where the clues are not given to the players. They are explained after the players have failed.

 

And in the original thread the Bunneh's last post tells it all. This Reeks of idiot writing.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

Is it bad form for a GM to have a character be undetectable' date=' or to baffle super senses that the player's have bought?[/quote']

 

Only if he does it so often that the player starts to feel that he wasted those points. It helps if there's some explanation for it, too, other than 'because'.

 

It's like anything else, really. If a PC drops points on a Flash and suddenly *everybody* has Flash Defense or Enhanced Senses 'just because', it's a waste. If a PC picks up a Drain and suddenly 15 points of Power Defense become the norm, it's a waste.

[Comic]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

It's the hallmark of an unoriginal GM to blatantly circumvent detection in the campaign.

 

Detection is an element of characters.

 

Why bother having any senses at all, if a GM thinks it's permissible to make utterly impossible-to-detect villains? Sell them all back and be team Blind-Deaf-Stupid.

 

Now, if the players decide none of them wants special senses, then it's a gold-plated invitation to the GM to use ordinary invisibility, and more power to them.

 

If the players have even one team member with special senses, let the villain have to _work_ to circumvent those senses, by avoiding that team member, subverting them, or just out-and-out getting caught.

[Dr. Confoundo]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

Maybe my experiences have been different than others, but it seems to me like most players build their characters with some sort of super-sense. (Which are usually there so that the character won't be helpless when flashed/blinded/whatever, but there's always a smattering of the 'Detect Evil' or 'Danger Sense' types as well.)

 

And I wouldn't do this just out of the blue (or on a regular basis), unless it's specifically the schtick for a specific enemy. But if the bad guys find out over time what super-senses your team uses to kick their collective butts on a regular basis, isn't it tactically smart to figure out a way to get around them?

[Trebuchet]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

I'm a bit unclear as to whether this character is totally invisible or is simply undetectable by any known means as a fake?

[Dr. Confoundo]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

Yeah, I may have muddied the water a bit with my first post. In the context of Secret Invasion, the Skrulls have developed perfect duplicates. As far as we've seen so far, you cannot tell them apart from the real thing.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

That's simply Shapeshift (All Sense Groups In The Campaign); Imitation; Cellular

 

 

finding the Shapeshifters could conceivably be a Plot Element in the campaign.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

But if the bad guys find out over time what super-senses your team uses to kick their collective butts on a regular basis' date=' isn't it tactically smart to figure out a way to get around them?[/quote']

 

Yes, but not all villains are tactically smart or have access to that kind of resources (depending on the villain). Mechanon should never (unless something REALLY weird is going on) start employing magical wards to prevent being found out by mages, because that's just not his 'thing'. Similarly, Takofanes should not employ radar jammers. Guys like Bulldozer are too wrapped up in themselves to think about getting polarizing contacts (Flash Def) or anything like that.

 

On the other hand, for some villains, that's practically their schtick. Guys like Utility and Interface (Champs Battlegrounds) with VPPs.

 

Something else the GM might consider is finding a way to mess with the senses in question, rather than outright negate them. For example, we know Iron Man uses radar. A villain fighting him might drop him into a dark room and, instead of outright jamming the radar, use a device to create radar image clones to confuse him. Just going 'Invisibility to Radar, OIF' is a trifle unimaginative, after all.

[Kenn]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

And if there is supposed to be a way to tell the difference between the real thing and the imposter' date=' I'm not sure that ability to play the saxaphone would be enough of a hint. While that GM might have thought he was being clever, it's not hard to imagine that that solution would never in a million years come up to the players.[/quote']

 

It wasn't whether or not we could jump on that particular clue or not. There's often a risk when setting up clues. In this case such a ridiculous omission that I'd rejected out of it out of hand. This was prior to the '92 election; the whole country knew, by then, that Mr. Clinton played the sax. That Viper would have a Clinton-clone that couldn't play the sax would be like making a left-handed clone of a right-handed person.

 

But the real problem wasn't the "can we think of the clue." It was that we had multiple mentalists scanning BOTH brains. That NONE of them could notice the difference in the two brains? Basically, the clue was undetectable through means that it should have been detected, except for the one precise path, to that clue, the GM wanted us to follow.

 

If he had said "Fantastic Girl, something seems off in the part of the brain where his musical skills should be" when Fantastic Girl was doing the telepathic scans, then it would've been better.

[Kirby]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

Guys like Bulldozer are too wrapped up in themselves to think about getting polarizing contacts (Flash Def) or anything like that.

Ah, but if you can encourage him to wear shades "because he'd look even cooler, if that were possible," and make him think it was his own idea, then it could work. (He'd still probably take them off every now and then so the ladies can look into his beautiful blues!)

[Comic]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

I once had a PC shapeshifter whose shtick was studying and then taking on the forms of victims of supervillains -- villains who believed themselves untouchably beyond either the law or justice -- and then hunting, haunting, and giving the villains the choice of redemption through good works, or utter destruction, starting with their sanity and working down from there.

 

And he ran into a PC hero whose backstory was that his younger brother - a superhero with complementary powers - died when the older brother was running with a gang of villains. The brother's death turned the character from petty villain to resolute good-guy.

 

Except my character only knew that a small-time hero was murdered by a gang of villains, and the only member of the team of villains who can easily be found is the grim and brooding mystery figure who has behaved like a good guy in the time since the hero was discovered murdered.

 

The game of cat-and-mouse as two PC's circled about each other, him looking for holes in my disguise, my shapeshift, my backstory, my acting, my knowledge of his dead little brother.. me looking for him to drop hints I could use to enhance my story, make my act more credible, uncover what role he had in the murder of the young hero a year ago.. and find out where the rest of the villains on his former team were.. that was fun.

 

My character didn't have perfect shapeshifting. He didn't even have all-that-great disguise or acting.

 

He had to prepare and prepare and prepare, with legwork and research and study and recruiting others into his act, and bluffing his way through encounter after encounter with a guy who was suspicious -- someone else had already tried to convince him they were his dead brother come back -- and much more powerful than my shapeshifter.

 

It was a world with mentalists and uberdetectives, so my shapeshifter had to be careful who he exposed himself to while the older brother was around.

 

It put constraints on the action and made for interesting drama.

 

It was, in short, far better than it would have been if he'd had cellular level shapeshift, invisible telepathy, and clairsentience, to be able to perfectly fool and absolutely defeat anything his opponent tried.

[teh bunneh]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

Building a villain that challenges your players in ways they don't expect is one thing.

 

Revealing, at the end of the campaign, that the Big Baddie was able to hide from all of your special senses (magical, psionic, technological, and sensory) because... um... "He's immune to all that stuff, even if he never demonstrated those abilities before. Just trust me..." is completely another.

 

I could buy a villain being immune to a first-level "Detect Alignment" spell. I have a harder time if they're completely immune to all forms of detection, full-stop. Especially if it's pretty obvious that the GM is pulling that ability out of his rear.

 

It's like a mystery novel in which the murderer is someone who never even appeared until the last chapter, and who the author didn't bother leaving any clues about.

[csyphrett]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

In discussing Marvel's current Skrull Invasion over in the NGD, I got a number of responses that surprised me...

 

Spoilers for anyone who is interested in the Secret Invasion series:

We've found out that there are a number of Skrull infiltrators that have secretly replaced a number of mid to high level characters in the Marvel Universe, such as:

Spider Woman, Hank Pym, Jarvis the Butler, Captain Mar-Vell, and Elektra, among others.

 

 

Using a combination of super-science, psionics, and magic, the Skrulls have devised a way of making those infiltrators completely undetectable, to all forms and senses that we've seen so far, as long as they stay in their disguises and don't ever revert to their Skrull forms. So far we've been shown that they are undetectable to Spiderman's Danger Sense, Wolverine's sense of smell, Iron Man and the Avengers Mansion's sensors, Dr. Strange's magic, and Professor X's psychic powers.

 

We don't know how many of these Skrulls there are on Earth, probably a lot, including at least a few more big names.

 

 

In discussing this storyline, some posters expressed dislike for making characters undetectable by all methods, and at least one implied that he would walk out of a campaign if he encountered something like this.

 

Is it bad form for a GM to have a character be undetectable, or to baffle super senses that the player's have bought?

 

Depends on the game, depends on the system.

 

Let's say you have played as Eagle Eye in several long adventures with a npc or another pc. These characters have had to pass through several detection attempts by others, or yourself, to verify that they are the same person that arrived with you. Then that character badly hurt your pc in mid mission and revealed that he was really a shapeshifter that you had encountered earlier that had no way to prevent detection by your careful examination of his science or native skills and had been that way for say half your missions. He just learned how to be invisible to all attempts at detection somehow.

 

Few people want to play in a game with a flimsy explanation like that. And some don't want to read about something like that when they have body of work that says no way.

 

CES

[input.jack]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

If the players have even one team member with special senses, let the villain have to _work_ to circumvent those senses, by avoiding that team member, subverting them, or just out-and-out getting caught.

 

Feline Fury has a 0phenomenal sense of smell. She can track and target by scent. This became known to some of our enemies when they tossed a smoke grenade at her feet, and she proceeded to mop the floor with the SPYDER agents anyway.

 

The last time we fought SPYDER, the combat team leader ordered another smoke grenade thrown at Feline Fury, and he lobbed basically a "black pepper bomb" as well.

 

I didnt feel deprived, even though I couldnt use my enhanced sense, because the GM had had the bad guys notice what I did, and take appropriate steps to counter-act me.

 

Groovy!

 

If Id tried to scent out the SPYDER agents in the first encounter and been told "They have no scent", Id have been miffed.

 

As it was, I was actually kinda -proud- that Id made them alter their tactics.

 

Just for me

 

My take on the Secret Invasion? I think having EVERYONE be fooled by their shenanigans may have been going too far. Fool Wolvie's sense of smell? Great. Iron Man's sensors? Sure. But BOTH Xavier and Doc Strange? Thats a little far-fetched to me, even for Marvel continuity.

 

*Koff koff*

 

Excuse me. Apparently, nowadays, saying "Marvel" and "continuity" in the same sentence isnt as easy as it used to be.

 

*a-KHEM*

 

See ?

 

(Must have been Mephisto's doing)

[Egyptoid]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

you guys are right, the "undetectable" plot is teh suk,

but no-one has mentioned the skrull hypnosis.

 

perhaps someone has detected them here or there,

and then been reminded to forget you ever saw me

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

Doesn't the GM have discretion to bypass player powers every now and again' date=' without giving them extra Disadd points, if it makes a good story? [/quote']

 

I'd say yes, though I'd like a good explanation afterwards, even if it's a handwave.

 

I'll accept a lot of cheese for the sake of a story/game. I just don't like it when it happens every time (as has ahppened to somegamers I've spoken with).