Completely Undetectable

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

Why not? Dr. Doom uses magic' date=' and Dr. Destroyer is just a Doom analog.[/quote']

 

I wouldn't use magic, I'd just use some weird supertech (I.e., "Hah! Fool heroes, you never suspected my Nanotech Sensory Blocker had invaded your very bodies!"). Comic-book supertech and magic are both usually just ways of getting the story moving, after all.

[Kirby]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

No, it was simply a matter of I don't use the Dr in my games and am not really all that familiar with him.

 

When I saw somone refer to it as a psychological limitation I said to myself "I don't recall him having that".

 

So I took a quick glance at his character sheet (no background info, just his stats), didn't see such a Disadvantage and thus needed clarification, which you provided.

 

Of course, everything may change by the time 6th rolls around...

OK, my apologies. I'm having a piss-poor day (started with my computer chair breaking) and must have read something that wasn't there or intended.

[Mike W]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

In discussing Marvel's current Skrull Invasion over in the NGD, I got a number of responses that surprised me...

 

Spoilers for anyone who is interested in the Secret Invasion series:

We've found out that there are a number of Skrull infiltrators that have secretly replaced a number of mid to high level characters in the Marvel Universe, such as:

Spider Woman, Hank Pym, Jarvis the Butler, Captain Mar-Vell, and Elektra, among others.

 

 

Using a combination of super-science, psionics, and magic, the Skrulls have devised a way of making those infiltrators completely undetectable, to all forms and senses that we've seen so far, as long as they stay in their disguises and don't ever revert to their Skrull forms. So far we've been shown that they are undetectable to Spiderman's Danger Sense, Wolverine's sense of smell, Iron Man and the Avengers Mansion's sensors, Dr. Strange's magic, and Professor X's psychic powers.

 

We don't know how many of these Skrulls there are on Earth, probably a lot, including at least a few more big names.

 

 

In discussing this storyline, some posters expressed dislike for making characters undetectable by all methods, and at least one implied that he would walk out of a campaign if he encountered something like this.

 

Is it bad form for a GM to have a character be undetectable, or to baffle super senses that the player's have bought?

 

The problem with such a thing is twofold.

 

1. It isn't terribly logical to incorporate all of them into one power.

2. If it takes YEARS for, say, an entire civilization to develop such a thing, shouldn't it take YEARS for another equally technological civilization to figure out how to undo it? That doesn't make for good story, so that means at some point you probably end up throwing 3 or 4 big brains in a room and watch them miraculously figure it out in a few days. This also doesn't make for very good story.

[Comic]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

Partly the issue is translation folly. What might make for an excellent story -- I don't know if this one is or isn't -- can make for horrible roleplay.

 

I might possibly read the story one day and decide for myself on that part. I've already played the roleplay, and know it isn't to my liking.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

I wonder, are we spending more time trying to justify this than Quesada and the writers did?

[Kirby]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

I wonder' date=' are we spending more time trying to justify this than Quesada and the writers did?[/quote']Probably. I can imagination the conversation went something like this:

 

"I've got a cool idea for a major crossover : let's make the skrulls completely undetectable by everyone."

 

"OK."

 

Then maybe later, "Hey, what about these people with special detection abilities?"

 

"We'll make it up as we go along."

 

"And how will they be defeated?"

 

"Only one person will know. Let's see," :flips through old copyrighted names they haven't used but want to keep: "Here we go, 3-D man will save them."

 

"We are so awesome."

 

[Bloodstone]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

Well, Bendis has been hinting at it for 4 years now, so in theory he should have had plenty of time to develop the story implications. Obviously time is not a guarantee of quality though. Regardless, I figure no matter what explanation Marvel offers up, some people will still hate it.

 

I've made the "3-D Man will save us all!" comment a few times now, but I seriously doubt Bendis will have the day saved by a character he's not even writing. I also don't think Triathlon has ever exhibited that particular oddball 3D-Man power, so unless it's a major plot point I don't see them introducing it now. I actualy wish they would though: I think it would be amusing if the Skrulls put all this effort into countering a bunch of big hitters and then the world was saved by some relatively obscure hero that the Skrulls just never thought of as being a problem.

 

Of course, there are also the Skrull defectors to deal with... it's only a secret until somone flaps their lips...

[Mike W]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

Well, Bendis has been hinting at it for 4 years now, so in theory he should have had plenty of time to develop the story implications. Obviously time is not a guarantee of quality though. Regardless, I figure no matter what explanation Marvel offers up, some people will still hate it.

 

I've made the "3-D Man will save us all!" comment a few times now, but I seriously doubt Bendis will have the day saved by a character he's not even writing. I also don't think Triathlon has ever exhibited that particular oddball 3D-Man power, so unless it's a major plot point I don't see them introducing it now. I actualy wish they would though: I think it would be amusing if the Skrulls put all this effort into countering a bunch of big hitters and then the world was saved by some relatively obscure hero that the Skrulls just never thought of as being a problem.

 

Of course, there are also the Skrull defectors to deal with... it's only a secret until somone flaps their lips...

 

 

There is also the question of what happened to all the people that got replaced? Logic says that they were killed. MAYBE kept imprisoned in some obscure place, but probably not together. And how DO you keep Thor imprisoned anyway?

 

But getting back to the HERO implications, even building Shapeshift with Cellular Imitation wouldn't be enough. Because you would also need to be able to block Mental powers(or more accurately, fool someone trying to read your mind into seeing something else, which is even harder). And you would need to block mystic senses that could identify the "soul" or "aura" of a character as well.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

Of course' date=' there are also the Skrull defectors to deal with... it's only a secret until somone flaps their lips...[/quote']

 

Skrulls don't have lips.

[Alric]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

One thought. Most senses are not automatic. Do your heroes walk down the street stopping everyone they meet to make sure they aren't villains in disguise?

 

If the heroes have no reason to be looking for disguised skrulls then they won't find them. If the heroes know about the hidden skrulls then they should have a chance to spot one.

 

When the GM wants the heroes to uncover the plot is when he has one of the skrulls slip up or do something so out of the ordinary that the heroes will notice.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

One thought. Most senses are not automatic. Do your heroes walk down the street stopping everyone they meet to make sure they aren't villains in disguise?

 

If the heroes have no reason to be looking for disguised skrulls then they won't find them. If the heroes know about the hidden skrulls then they should have a chance to spot one.

 

When the GM wants the heroes to uncover the plot is when he has one of the skrulls slip up or do something so out of the ordinary that the heroes will notice.

 

Senses are automatic (or at least automatically allow a PER roll). Detects are not.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

There is also the question of what happened to all the people that got replaced? Logic says that they were killed. MAYBE kept imprisoned in some obscure place' date=' but probably not together. And how DO you keep Thor imprisoned anyway?[/quote']

 

 

Who knows at this point. For all we know, the process that makes such perfect duplicates might require the victims to be kept alive (even if not imprisoned) for whatever super science/mystic mumbojubo reason: "We can't kill them or the psychic resonance filed will eventually deteriorate and the ruse will be uncovered!"

 

 

But getting back to the HERO implications, even building Shapeshift with Cellular Imitation wouldn't be enough. Because you would also need to be able to block Mental powers(or more accurately, fool someone trying to read your mind into seeing something else, which is even harder). And you would need to block mystic senses that could identify the "soul" or "aura" of a character as well.

 

Shapeshift to Mental Group, Imitation, Deep Mental Shift - fools Mind Scan, Telepathy and other Mental Senses regardless of if it's mystical, mutant or technological in nature.

 

Shapshift, Invisibility and other sense powers can all be bought to affect any other specific Detect, Sense, Sense Group. You just need to know that the sense exists, spend the points and get the GM's approval.

 

I believe Ghost-Angel knows something about this

[Bloodstone]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

Skrulls don't have lips.

 

Jazinda and Lyjaa would like to disagree, but shapeshifters can flap anything they like, really I've always thought it odd that most females Skrulls are drawn with full lips, breasts and hair... despite the fact that their race is reptilian.

 

But even male Skrull's are drawn differently now. They all have a slightly more human appearance in their true form. The main distinguishing features are the green skin color, the huge elf ears and the ridged chin. The enormous eyes and huge lizard like mouths are a thing of the past.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

Skrulls don't have lips.

They hate us for our lips.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

Who knows at this point. For all we know' date=' the process that makes such perfect duplicates might require the victims to be kept alive (even if not imprisoned) for whatever super science/mystic mumbojubo reason: "We can't kill them or the psychic resonance filed will eventually deteriorate and the ruse will be uncovered![/quote']

 

*snaps fingers*

 

You're right. Back during an old X-Men story arc when they recovered Professor X from the Shi'ar, he was being imitated by a Skrull, using some weird machine that let the Skrull use Xavier's psi-powers. I can't imagine anybody going back that far to further a modern plot point, but there is a precedent.

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

you guys are right, the "undetectable" plot is teh suk,

but no-one has mentioned the skrull hypnosis.

 

perhaps someone has detected them here or there,

and then been reminded to forget you ever saw me

 

I could accept that working on some people, but Xavier and Strange are where that methodology would break down. It would be like a bunch of minor mentalists being able to consistently get EGO+30 results on Menton and the Revered Elder.

[Kirby]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

Not to mention hypnosis is merely a strong suggestive state; people won't do something under hypnosis that they'd truly abhor. Having stated that, it is genre for hypnosis to work like mind control, similar to how comics and other entertainment tend to think of photographic memory meaning the person is much smarter than others when people with photographic memory tend to have a harder time learning because they rely upon their 'images' as opposed to deduction and creative thinking.

[gmurie]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

Probably. I can imagination the conversation went something like this:

 

"I've got a cool idea for a major crossover : let's make the skrulls completely undetectable by everyone."

 

"OK."

 

Then maybe later, "Hey, what about these people with special detection abilities?"

 

"We'll make it up as we go along."

 

"And how will they be defeated?"

 

"Only one person will know. Let's see," :flips through old copyrighted names they haven't used but want to keep: "Here we go, 3-D man will save them."

 

"We are so awesome."

 

 

I'm glad I wasn't drinking anything when I read that. I'd have shot it out my nose.

 

You realize of course, that it'll be worse than that. It'll be something like Captain America faked his own death to singlehandedly stop the Skrull invasion!

[Kirby]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

I'm glad I wasn't drinking anything when I read that. I'd have shot it out my nose.

Heh, thanks.

 

You realize of course' date=' that it'll be worse than that. It'll be something like Captain America faked his own death to singlehandedly stop the Skrull invasion![/quote']Its ideas like this that Marvel entertains which explains why I stopped reading them nearly two decades ago.

[Comic]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

For literature, it's a marginally acceptable theme.

 

For roleplay, it kinda sucks.

 

Mythic figures had this kind of legendary power in myths and legends.

 

Hypothetical philosphical metaphorical ideals have this kind of trait in philosophical cant.

 

Harry Potter.. doesn't even quite go this far.

 

But in a roleplay setting, it's not such a fun thing.

[Clonus]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

I

 

In discussing this storyline, some posters expressed dislike for making characters undetectable by all methods, and at least one implied that he would walk out of a campaign if he encountered something like this.

 

Is it bad form for a GM to have a character be undetectable, or to baffle super senses that the player's have bought?

 

It isn't bad form in the least for a GM to have a character who decides to fool the PCs and takes specific successful steps to deceive their senses to that end. However it is extremely bad form for the GM to have an army of characters who absolutely can not be detected by any means available in a supers universe as diverse as the Marvel Universe even when people are specifically examining them. Something like that is as much a violation of my ability to suspend belief as invulnerability is and just as invulnerability is an excess of the Silver Age's power inflation, this is an excess of the Rust Age's paranoia inflation.

[ShadowWraithe]

Re: Completely Undetectable

 

Well' date=' in this case, the Skrulls had both Professor X and Dr. Strange held captive for an unknown length of time some time soon after the Kree/Skrull War - long enough to do full genetic/mental scans of them, and have had years to examine the data.[/quote']

 

 

The Skrull don't really need to have learned magic or be universal class mentalists or even totally undetectable to avoid Doctor Strange's and Professor X's scrutiny. Once they had the Earth's heavy hitters captive, it seems they should have enough technology on hand to brainwash them to not be able to detect hidden Skrulls. In roleplaying terms, it would be a new mystery disadvantage added to their characters :

Psych Lim. : Believes Any Skrull Disguise To Be Authentic Beyond Any Shadow Of A Doubt