Urban Fantasy dead horses.

[Spence]

Shadowsoul's "Urban Fantasy: Warnings" thread made me think of something.

 

What things do you consider so overdone in fantasy that you plan to ban their very existence from your game?

 

For me Vampires and Werewolves are so overused I pretty much just want to pack up and leave at their mere mention. If I ever use either in a game they will be something completely different and it will just be legend or misunderstanding that makes people think they are Vamps or Were's. In my world Were's are just shapechangers with nothing supernatural or extra powers beyond the shapechange itself. I just leave out the neckmunchers all together.

 

How about you? What tropes do you dislike with a passion?

[mayapuppies]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

I'm with you on this. Lycanthropes in general don't exist in my games at all. I've made a twist on the bats, but I can't explain too much about it until I release the world book this winter.

 

What I can say is that Anne Rice and White Wolf are not even visible in the design. I blame Stoker for the sad parody that vampires have become.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

I blame Stoker for the sad parody that vampires have become.

 

That's hardly fair. Stoker made vampires popular to start with. Before him, vampires were some weird Oriental myth. It's all the people tagging onto Dracula as the only canon vampire that made them the parody.

 

And it's not all sad. Would it be as funny if Dean Venture had said "he hypnotized us with his magical vampire powers"?

[mayapuppies]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

I argue that making them popular is what lowered them to the butt of a Venture Brothers joke.

 

Of course I don't watch Venture Brothers...maybe that's the problem. lol

[Shadowsoul]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

I'd leave off Stoker really. Granted Dracula wasn't the greatest piece of literature ever but it's important to draw a line between Stoker's Dracula and the Hollywood Dracula. Stoker's Dracula wasn't sexy and he wasn't emo, he was an ancient Eastern European monster who intended to hide in contemporary London and was defeated with modern technology, that's an innovation that I quite like. Nor was Stoker the first person to try and bring vampires into fiction. Both Carmilla, (the original vampire lesbian), and the demonic Lord Ruthven preceded him.

 

Dracula simply got picked up and turned into a part of popular culture that has spawned near endless stories.

 

But I digress, sorry for the mini-rant there.

 

I don't tend to rule tropes or beings out altogether. But I would prefer not to see Ann Rice style vampires either. Vampires can always be reinvented however.

 

Secret vampire societies and werewolf packs are pretty old news these days. Nor is using a new kind of were-beast such as a were-leopard a proper innovation.

 

Vampire detectives are definitely out.

 

Characters straight out of fairytales are a bit irritating as well. No King Arthur either.

 

No potions.

 

And no children being entrusted with the fate of the world. If children are fighting a war then something has gone seriously wrong.

[CTaylor]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

I think the entire genre is a dead horse, personally.

[Curufea]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

I'd regard a psychic campaign as urban fantasy. Something like scanners.

 

But there would be various things I'd avoid having - like nose bleeds

[Shadowsoul]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

I think the entire genre is a dead horse' date=' personally.[/quote']

 

That's defeatist talk! If they'd believed that about pirate films we'd never have had Pirates of the Caribbean! If they'd believed that about Westerns we might never have had Cowboy Bebop! If they'd accepted that military fantasy had been done too much we would never have had the Malazan Book of the Fallen! If dark lords had been banned from fantasy then Carey would never have written Banewreaker!

 

I'm going to stop now before my references become any more obscure, but I will say this. We can still save this genre! We can breathe new life into it and reclaim it from the soft core erotic novelists! We can break the mould!

 

(Begins to foam at the mouth and has to go for a lie down).

[Curufea]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

You could even do an entire game in New Crobuzon as Urban Fantasy

[Spence]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

hmmmmmmm.....

 

All I can say is

 

Wow. This got off topic almost immediately...

 

 

Or at least what I envisioned as the topic....

[Shadowsoul]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

Ok. I'll try to get back on topic.

 

Faeries have been rather heavily used. It may be time to adapt them or discard them.

 

The whole, 'magic is dying' trope is getting old. 'The faeries are dying from pollution!" If a faerie can't come up with an air cleaning spell it probably wasn't that magical to begin with.

 

Less with the zombies as well. I know that's like saying 'no more skeletons' in a D&D campaign but zombies have definitely been overdone. And they are much harder to reinvent than vampires or even werewolves.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

I'm just waiting to compile a list so I can add those things into it. I personally believe that the things y'all are talking about are the tropes of Urban Fantasy. Might as well say "Gee, when I run a Western HERO game, first thing I'm getting rid of are six-shooters."

 

I don't get it.

[Spence]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

Ok. I'll try to get back on topic.

 

Faeries have been rather heavily used. It may be time to adapt them or discard them.

 

The whole, 'magic is dying' trope is getting old. 'The faeries are dying from pollution!" If a faerie can't come up with an air cleaning spell it probably wasn't that magical to begin with.

 

Less with the zombies as well. I know that's like saying 'no more skeletons' in a D&D campaign but zombies have definitely been overdone. And they are much harder to reinvent than vampires or even werewolves.

 

Good ones. Any idea how you would reinvent fairies? I hadn't thought of them.

 

 

Zombies are definitely overdone in the last few years and on the short term I am stumped how to reinvent them.

 

This will take some thought. Thanks

[Spence]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

I'm just waiting to compile a list so I can add those things into it. I personally believe that the things y'all are talking about are the tropes of Urban Fantasy. Might as well say "Gee, when I run a Western HERO game, first thing I'm getting rid of are six-shooters."

 

I don't get it.

 

Well maybe "get rid of" is a bit strong. Yes I know that was what I said But maybe we can alter it to be:

 

What things do you consider so overdone in fantasy that you plan to ban their very existence or drastically reinvent before using them in your game?

 

But while I agree that they can be tropes, I don't think any of them must be tropes.

 

Or to modify your example in an attempt to illustrate what I mean: "I want to run a Western Hero Game but it will be pre-1845 so cartridge revolvers or rifles are very very rare (or non-existent) so weapons will be ball and cap or muzzle loaders".

 

It would still be Western Hero, since there were six-guns before there were cartridges.

[Alcamtar]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

No, I pretty much like what I like (or not).

 

If I like it, and it is done well, it cannot be overdone. More often I find nuances in what other people are doing that are not quite to my taste. If anything it makes me want to do it even more, so I can do it right (that is, "my way" ).

[Nolgroth]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

Well maybe "get rid of" is a bit strong. Yes I know that was what I said But maybe we can alter it to be:

 

What things do you consider so overdone in fantasy that you plan to ban their very existence or drastically reinvent before using them in your game?

The "ban their very existence" part is what I don't get. Having your own take, sure. Get rid of? Why bother playing in the genre at all. Sort of reminds me of the Monty Python Cheese Shop sketch.

 

"I'm going to ask you this one last time and if you tell me no, I'm going to shoot you in the head. Does this game have any of the Urban Fantasy tropes?"

 

"No."

 

 

But while I agree that they can be tropes, I don't think any of them must be tropes.

If I were going to play in a game advertised as Urban Fantasy and many or most of the tropes I expect are missing, I'd be sorely disappointed. The GM would have to be about the best GM ever for me to enjoy a game where my expectations are completely blown out of the water. If I know ahead of time, I'd probably bow out. If I have been playing for a while before learning that certain tropes that I am expecting are not to be found, I'd cry foul and leave the game. Tropes exist for us to define a genre and create a reasonable expectation of what the game is going to be about.

 

As a GM, I don't get the self limiting declarations either. As a GM, I would try to define what I didn't like about a particular trope and find a way to make that trope good again.

 

It would still be Western Hero, since there were six-guns before there were cartridges.

You make my point for me.

 

I suppose crashing somebody else's hate party is a bad idea, but I was just sorta amazed at the close-mindedness involved.

[Spence]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

Please don't take this wrong. I am not saying you are wrong or anything. I am just trying to understand some of your points...

 

The "ban their very existence" part is what I don't get. Having your own take, sure. Get rid of? Why bother playing in the genre at all. Sort of reminds me of the Monty Python Cheese Shop sketch.

 

"I'm going to ask you this one last time and if you tell me no, I'm going to shoot you in the head. Does this game have any of the Urban Fantasy tropes?"

 

"No."

 

 

 

I modified the statement to take in the account modifying or reinventing. But the thread didn't say "ban all", it said "which things would you ban". Playing devils advocate, you are saying that it is mandatory that a Urban Fantasy game must have all the various tropes or it isn't UF?

 

 

If I were going to play in a game advertised as Urban Fantasy and many or most of the tropes I expect are missing, I'd be sorely disappointed. The GM would have to be about the best GM ever for me to enjoy a game where my expectations are completely blown out of the water. If I know ahead of time, I'd probably bow out. If I have been playing for a while before learning that certain tropes that I am expecting are not to be found, I'd cry foul and leave the game. Tropes exist for us to define a genre and create a reasonable expectation of what the game is going to be about.

 

Meaning if you start a UF game and the GM doesn't throw vampires, lycanthropes, mummies, elves, fairies and bigfoot at you in session one it isn't urban fantasy? And you would quit before even finding out what it was about? Just being semi-dense to make a point But the basic question is still valid. If you play in a GM's Urban Fantasy game, you are mandating that he only run it if it meets you personal vision of such a campaign, rather than allowing a GM to be the creator of his world and enjoying the adventure it brings. To me that sounds like refusing entire Champions game because the GM runs a four-color 50's style world and said no to a late 90's blood-splatter type PC.

 

 

As a GM, I don't get the self limiting declarations either. As a GM, I would try to define what I didn't like about a particular trope and find a way to make that trope good again.

 

You make my point for me.

 

I suppose crashing somebody else's hate party is a bad idea, but I was just sorta amazed at the close-mindedness involved.

 

Actually I thought you made my point . And it wasn't intended to be a "hate party". It was intended to find out which beings they would get rid of because they were so over exposed they were no longer really useful. For me vampires fall into this group because they are about a mysterious as a mob boss. They are cunning and suck blood. Repeat ad nausea. At least with a mob boss the PC's would have a bit of mystery.

 

From my perspective you were sounding like the close-minded one mandating a single cookie-cutter version of Urban Fantasy

 

But after reading it I may have been knee jerking a bit. I can certainly understand your position, but I don't really think that if a GM decides to leave Vampires out of his game it means it isn't Urban Fantasy. Rather it is simply a Urban Fantasy game that is some what original and managing to avoid staying within the boundaries of another persons idea of what their game should be. Some of may favorite Urban Fantasy novels ever don't have a single mention of a Vampire and they are most definitely Urban Fantasy.

 

The best example of what I think about it with this statement: If a StarHero game does not include Vulcans does that mean it is not a StarHero game, and by extension does that mean Star Wars cannot be a StarHero game because it is not StarTrek?

 

But I do understand your position and it did make me think about things.

 

Thanks

 

I would rep you but it won't let me.....I still think my rep giving thingee is broken. It hardly ever lets me rep someone.....

[Nolgroth]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

I modified the statement to take in the account modifying or reinventing. But the thread didn't say "ban all"' date=' it said "which things would you ban". Playing devils advocate, you are saying that it is mandatory that a Urban Fantasy game must have [b']all[/b] the various tropes or it isn't UF?

The things I am seeing here are fairly common things to just toss out the window. Of course it doesn't require every single thing to be UF.

 

Meaning if you start a UF game and the GM doesn't throw vampires, lycanthropes, mummies, elves, fairies and bigfoot at you in session one it isn't urban fantasy? And you would quit before even finding out what it was about? Just being semi-dense to make a point But the basic question is still valid.

If, before the game, the GM told me that he hates all those things and refuses to include them, then yes I would quit. Preferably before I get started.

If you play in a GM's Urban Fantasy game, you are mandating that he only run it if it meets you personal vision of such a campaign, rather than allowing a GM to be the creator of his world and enjoying the adventure it brings.

I'm mandating that he run Urban Fantasy, which includes the tropes that people are so carelessly tossing away. If he doesn't want to run Urban Fantasy, then don't call it that.

 

Actually I thought you made my point .

You were describing a new take on the six-gun. Just because it is earlier than the cartridge revolver, doesn't negate that the six gun is a vital trope to the Western genre.

 

And it wasn't intended to be a "hate party". It was intended to find out which beings they would get rid of because they were so over exposed they were no longer really useful.

Is there such a thing?

 

For me vampires fall into this group because they are about a mysterious as a mob boss. They are cunning and suck blood. Repeat ad nausea. At least with a mob boss the PC's would have a bit of mystery.

And nor do I find a mob boss in say, Dark Champions, an overused commodity.

 

From my perspective you were sounding like the close-minded one mandating a single cookie-cutter version of Urban Fantasy

Not at all. I am advocating that nothing is "so over-exposed that they are no longer useful." To change the expected tropes of a given genre to an extent that what you are playing is not even close to the genre, you are playing something else. That's fine, but don't call it Urban Fantasy.

 

But after reading it I may have been knee jerking a bit.

Same here probably.

 

I can certainly understand your position, but I don't really think that if a GM decides to leave Vampires out of his game it means it isn't Urban Fantasy.

If it were just one thing or another, cool. I'm seeing lists of things in this thread. Each item on the list whittles down the options available.

 

Some of may favorite Urban Fantasy novels ever don't have a single mention of a Vampire and they are most definitely Urban Fantasy.

Point to you.

 

The best example of what I think about it with this statement: If a StarHero game does not include Vulcans does that mean it is not a StarHero game, and by extension does that mean Star Wars cannot be a StarHero game because it is not StarTrek?

I see the point you are trying to make, but it's falling flat. Branded worlds like Star Wars, Star Trek, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, etc are almost genres unto themselves. Perhaps defining the Urban Fantasy genre into specific types is in order.

 

But I do understand your position and it did make me think about things.

Thanks.

 

I would rep you but it won't let me...

Actually the discussion is more important than any rep and you made some good counter-points yourself.

 

Here is an example of my take. Let's use your example of vampires being overused. Let's say that you don't want to "include" them in your game. I would suggest that vampire lore be included in your game. Maybe add some sort of purging along the lines of the Inquisition. Vampires have become so rare and secretive that finding any modern evidence of them is nigh-impossible. Maybe an anecdotal reference to them somewhere crops up from time to time, but "vampire hunters" are mostly self-absorbed idiots that want to be cool. That leads to a lot of false information about vampires to be circulated, because hey, nobody living has any recollection of ever actually seeing one. It's easy to make stuff up.

 

Two years real-time pass. You have really ran your characters up against cryptozoological critters, ghosts, demons, and the odd spiritualist. What now? Oh yeah, those vampires you decided against tossing out the window when you first started the campaign. By this time, one very clever vampire could make one heck of a mini-campaign.

 

It is possible to exclude something without excluding it, if you take my meaning.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

Get rid of? Nothing.

 

that's like playing a Silver Age Champions game but banning "bricks" because that trope is SOOO overdone.

 

You don't use every trope in every game to be sure. But there's no one thing I would ban outright.

 

Unless I can ban everything but the first five Anita Blake books from reality. Really.

 

You use this trope and that trope, maybe twist them a bit. But tropes are an extremely important part of a genre consensus - overdone or otherwise. They exist so the author doesn't have to explain the entire world from scratch, every time. And there even more important in a shared reality like a game so that everyone at the table can be on the same page.

 

Sure, your vampires may use fiercely territorial clan like things and there is no "prince of the city" merely groups that have divided the city along gang-line like pieces. Or you could have each city with a single ruler and such . . . but the point is there's always some underlying common base that is "A Trope" so you don't have to write an encyclopedia for every game you start.

[Curufea]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

A genre does not need tropes - they're just the most common ideas associated with the genre, not all the ideas in the genre.

 

Urban Fantasy can be any Urban setting with only 1 fantasy element - you don't need more than 1 for it to be Urban Fantasy.

That element could be vampires, sure - but equally it could be that love potions work. Or that someone discovers a source of infinite electricity. Or that giant robots could work within the laws of physics. Although, not to confuse the easily confused, maybe "giant golems" would be a better term for the folk that don't realise that science fiction is a subset of fantasy.

[Spence]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

So what your saying is that if a GM decides not to include Vampires. Suddenly it isn't Urban Fantasy? By excluding one trope it invalidates an entire setting? That really blows me away. There are dozens of really good urban fantasy worlds and they don't even mention vamps. Star Trek and Star Wars may be sub-genres of their own, but they are still scifi and StarHero. I can say that i am running a scifi world with starships but there are no beam weapons, lasers or blasters. And it is still StarHero. By the same turn of the coin I can say I am running a Urban Fantasy game but it will center around witches, voodoo and the arcane, but vampires do not exist. It is still Urban Fantasy.

 

The example to use is not the one of "excluding bricks", a more correct example is "excluding PC heroes who kill and requiring a code versus killing" is better. Sure if you want to play a PC that routinely butchers anything around you may not fit into one of my games. But both types of games are still valid superhero games.

 

Not having Vampires may not be what your personal version of Urban Fantasy is, but then you don't have to play in it. It is still Urban Fantasy, as are games that center around vampires. In the end you can't force your personal bias on a genre and mandate that only one version is valid. That is the most narrow of visions. It is like trying to define specific requirements of what is or isn't Pulp. Or what qualifies as Star Hero or Dark Champions. Many genres have wide gray areas and a single trope does not define an entire genre.

 

The genre of Urban Fantasy is HUGE and while I know that most people don't read that much, I can only hope at least some have gotten past the pop recycled and regurgitated stories of endless neck munchers and into some solid and well thought out tales. Not that there aren't good solid tale with vampires in them. But even the biggest fan of the trope has to admit that there is some real garbage out there these days. As there is all the types and subjects.

 

But with the endless material available, folklore, books and so on it would be almost impossible to run out of challenging stories and have to revert to a vampire.

 

I guess I just don't understand the need to be part of the herd and regurgitate a tired and limp cliche when there is so much interesting stuff out there.

 

We'll just have to agree to disagree

[Nolgroth]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

Again, I suppose where we disagree is the "tired and limp cliché " part. I absolutely hate the word cliché. It automatically redefines a trope into something bad. I simply do not accept that any trope becomes "tired" unless you wish it to be.

 

Perhaps I am narrowly focused. I would rather play a campaign that at least mentions the other supernatural tropes as "real" even if they are not actively part of the setting. I guess that I have this perception of Urban Fantasy that it is like our world, only all the things I've ever bought or borrowed a book to research is "real" (within the setting).

 

Maybe not UFOs in the space aliens context. That is getting into other genres.

 

But now that you mention it, I would really like to read some Asian Urban Fantasy to see how it compares. That might be an interesting aside to a more "traditional" Urban Fantasy game.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

Shadowsoul's "Urban Fantasy: Warnings" thread made me think of something.

 

What things do you consider so overdone in fantasy that you plan to ban their very existence from your game?

 

How about you? What tropes do you dislike with a passion?

 

Personally, in Urban Fantasy, the fact that all this mysterious stuff goes along and the mundanes don't figure it out really bugs me. Or rather the reason keeps changing, sometimes within the same day:

 

1) The mundanes are "half-asleep" and therefore will believe any half-believable excuse that will allow them to say "asleep" and unaware.

 

2) Everybody is in on a giant conspiracy to keep mortals "asleep". And to break this taboo is far worse than any mortal sin to maintain it. And those in the know, will punish you for doing something stupid and obviously magical where the mundanes can see it and can't "unsee" it.

 

3) The veil between worlds is fragile and if one does something stupid and obviously magical then the veil rips and bad stuff happens to everyone. Possible through some magical creatures that embodies "the bad stuff".

 

 

Now, you could have all 3, but it's rare to see it work properly.

[The Weapon]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

That's one way to save on gas bills, use dead horses as transportation! With a little necromancy you have a carriage that needs neither grain nor gas! Of course there might be a slight problem with demon infestation but the loonies who say gas prices are kept high to encourage people to use dead horses and thus usher in the apocalypse are clearly wrong. Our banks and government would never do that.

[The Weapon]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

Personally, in Urban Fantasy, the fact that all this mysterious stuff goes along and the mundanes don't figure it out really bugs me. Or rather the reason keeps changing, sometimes within the same day:

 

1) The mundanes are "half-asleep" and therefore will believe any half-believable excuse that will allow them to say "asleep" and unaware.

 

2) Everybody is in on a giant conspiracy to keep mortals "asleep". And to break this taboo is far worse than any mortal sin to maintain it. And those in the know, will punish you for doing something stupid and obviously magical where the mundanes can see it and can't "unsee" it.

 

3) The veil between worlds is fragile and if one does something stupid and obviously magical then the veil rips and bad stuff happens to everyone. Possible through some magical creatures that embodies "the bad stuff".

 

 

Now, you could have all 3, but it's rare to see it work properly.

 

Personally I'd have all three explainations provided, but give the PCs reason to doubt their true. For instance the people who claim that "Bad Stuff " will happen are the same ones who conspire to keep magic secret.

 

Here's an idea for why magic isn't all around, there's a limited supply. It's not running out like oil, more like it's an artesian well that only refills at a certain rate. That's why strange cults go out to the sticks, there isn't as much competition for the resource. Same reason "aliens" (the fey) land in wheatfields. There is still magic in the city because there are more people and emotionally significant things there. There's just not as much per head of population.