Urban Fantasy dead horses.

[archermoo]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

*Marks down author/series name*

 

Thanks

 

I don't know that I've seen anything that I'd call a vampire or werewolf in any of Charles deLint's works. Lots of faerie though. His stuff is generally a fusion of Celtic and Native American traditions, blended in the modern world.

[Karmakaze]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

I don't know that I've seen anything that I'd call a vampire or werewolf in any of Charles deLint's works. Lots of faerie though. His stuff is generally a fusion of Celtic and Native American traditions' date=' blended in the modern world.[/quote']

 

He wrote some horror under a pseudonym. I'm pretty sure there was something vampirish in one of those.

 

There's also the Southern Vampire books by Charlaine Harris (and the "Grave" books, which often get filed under Mystery) which fall under the category as well.

[Lucius]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

When did this thread turn from dead horses to "these are also pretty good"?

 

It didn't. It drifted into trying to define what is meant by "Urban Fantasy" and therefore into giving examples.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wonders about suburban fantasy

[Spence]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

I don't know that I've seen anything that I'd call a vampire or werewolf in any of Charles deLint's works. Lots of faerie though. His stuff is generally a fusion of Celtic and Native American traditions' date=' blended in the modern world.[/quote']

 

I guess I need to give deLint another try. I tried to read Moonheart years ago and just couldn't get into it. The same with a few of his other books. But it has been a while.

[Spence]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

When did this thread turn from dead horses to "these are also pretty good"?

 

It didn't. It drifted into trying to define what is meant by "Urban Fantasy" and therefore into giving examples.

 

Thread drift can be good and crunchy

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

The palindromedary wonders about suburban fantasy

 

I know this was your throwaway tagline, but I couldn't resist

 

I believe I've heard "Bewitched" and "I Dream of Jeannie" referred to as "suburban fantasy".

[Spence]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

I know this was your throwaway tagline, but I couldn't resist

 

I believe I've heard "Bewitched" and "I Dream of Jeannie" referred to as "suburban fantasy".

 

[Egyptoid]

Taxi

 

==================================================================

[csyphrett]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

Book or Anime?

 

The movie more than the book. That world is shown more with steam tech with flying machines and bombs and views of cities and towns the castle abutts on.

 

GA is right that despite the visit to Howl's home town in Wales in the book, you don't get that feeling that the towns that he operates in would belong to anything but a pastoral setting.

CES

[CountZero]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

This might have already been mentioned, but a Dead Horse that tends to bug me in Urban Fantasy is either Science = Bad, or Magic Breaks Science.

 

Science = Bad - Science either strips the wonder out of the world, leaving a bland, grey world, whereas magic makes everything colorful and shiny, though more Dangerous. Or, while the writer doesn't explicitly say that All Science Is Bad, the majority of the scientists in their books (with the exception of the Token Good Scientists) tend to be more then a little unethical, and by "a little unethical" I mean one step below Mengele. It doesn't help this "trope" that whenever I've encountered it's completely anvillicious (or at least feels that way).

 

Magic Breaks Science - This is one little pet peeve with the Dresden Files, where ever Harry Dresden goes, every gadget in the vicinity follows. If I picked up Harry by the road in my new car, my car would just completely fail in about 5 seconds. In a Role-Playing Game, this is one thing, as it makes for game balance. When you're writing a novel, you don't have to worry about Game Balance. And, frankly, I've seen this in just enough other places as well for this to annoy me. It's not quite a deal-breaker for me if done to a certain amount of moderation (I still enjoy the Dresden Files), but it is a slight annoyance.

[Spence]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

This might have already been mentioned, but a Dead Horse that tends to bug me in Urban Fantasy is either Science = Bad, or Magic Breaks Science.

 

Science = Bad - Science either strips the wonder out of the world, leaving a bland, grey world, whereas magic makes everything colorful and shiny, though more Dangerous. Or, while the writer doesn't explicitly say that All Science Is Bad, the majority of the scientists in their books (with the exception of the Token Good Scientists) tend to be more then a little unethical, and by "a little unethical" I mean one step below Mengele. It doesn't help this "trope" that whenever I've encountered it's completely anvillicious (or at least feels that way).

 

Magic Breaks Science - This is one little pet peeve with the Dresden Files, where ever Harry Dresden goes, every gadget in the vicinity follows. If I picked up Harry by the road in my new car, my car would just completely fail in about 5 seconds. In a Role-Playing Game, this is one thing, as it makes for game balance. When you're writing a novel, you don't have to worry about Game Balance. And, frankly, I've seen this in just enough other places as well for this to annoy me. It's not quite a deal-breaker for me if done to a certain amount of moderation (I still enjoy the Dresden Files), but it is a slight annoyance.

 

Good ones I don't see #2 as being as bad as #1. But I have noticed the trend of making science evil, and not just in fantasy.

[BlackSword]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

Magic Breaks Science - This is one little pet peeve with the Dresden Files' date=' where ever Harry Dresden goes, every gadget in the vicinity follows. If I picked up Harry by the road in my new car, my car would just completely fail in about 5 seconds. In a Role-Playing Game, this is one thing, as it makes for game balance. When you're writing a novel, you don't have to worry about Game Balance. And, frankly, I've seen this in just enough other places as well for this to annoy me. It's not quite a deal-breaker for me if done to a certain amount of moderation (I still enjoy the Dresden Files), but it is a slight annoyance.[/quote']

The only problem I had with 'science interferes with technology' in the Dresden files was that at times it was too broadly applied as 'what is technology.' In the first book he is worried about the bullets in his gun exploding or the gears in the gun (revolver) jamming. By the logic used in that Harry shouldn't even be able to use a modern toliet. The most recent books just seem to make it that he interferes with electrical systems.

[Susano]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

The only problem I had with 'science interferes with technology' in the Dresden files was that at times it was too broadly applied as 'what is technology.' In the first book he is worried about the bullets in his gun exploding or the gears in the gun (revolver) jamming. By the logic used in that Harry shouldn't even be able to use a modern toliet. The most recent books just seem to make it that he interferes with electrical systems.

 

Which makes more "sense" from a game standpoint. He's ridden in cars with no problem, for example.

[Clonus]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

This might have already been mentioned, but a Dead Horse that tends to bug me in Urban Fantasy is either Science = Bad, or Magic Breaks Science.

 

Science = Bad - Science either strips the wonder out of the world, leaving a bland, grey world, whereas magic makes everything colorful and shiny, though more Dangerous. Or, while the writer doesn't explicitly say that All Science Is Bad, the majority of the scientists in their books (with the exception of the Token Good Scientists) tend to be more then a little unethical, and by "a little unethical" I mean one step below Mengele. It doesn't help this "trope" that whenever I've encountered it's completely anvillicious (or at least feels that way).

 

Magic Breaks Science - This is one little pet peeve with the Dresden Files, where ever Harry Dresden goes, every gadget in the vicinity follows. If I picked up Harry by the road in my new car, my car would just completely fail in about 5 seconds. In a Role-Playing Game, this is one thing, as it makes for game balance. When you're writing a novel, you don't have to worry about Game Balance. And, frankly, I've seen this in just enough other places as well for this to annoy me. It's not quite a deal-breaker for me if done to a certain amount of moderation (I still enjoy the Dresden Files), but it is a slight annoyance.

 

In any urban fantasy universe where obvious palpable magic is supposed to be a secret, it is self-evident that the greatest threats to that secrecy are scientists and technology. Harry Dresden's anti-tech field may not serve the purposes of game balance but what it does do is make sure that even when he gets flashy, nobody's going to be taking some video of it with their camera phone. Scientists are a threat because not only are they more respected than the average witness, they are not inclined to just shrug and chalk up something weird if they see it. Scientists do investigate supposed paranormal phenomena, and they'd do it a lot more if there was actually something there to be found. Even their equipment failures would become something significant and worthy of investigation.

 

So if you aren't to have science be antithetical to your magic or vice versa, and you aren't going to have the kind of modern day universe which is distinctly weird because everyone knows the paranormal exists and uses of it are rather commonplace ala "Cast a Deadly Spell" or "Shadowrun" ...then you are going to have to strain to hold your universe together.

[Spence]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

I have to admit I really enjoyed books Dresden and was more than willing to give things a pass. But I have to admit my interest is waning. The last books was "good" but just didn't have the same zing, if you know what I mean.

[csyphrett]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

The thing that bothers me is Magic is science. It was annoying in Blade, it's annoying wherever I see it. I don't know why.

 

An example I guess is when the combined forces of the JSA and JLA turned Surtur the fire giant into a wormhole under the premise he's a walking sun. How does that work?

CES

[Markdoc]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

Which makes more "sense" from a game standpoint. He's ridden in cars with no problem' date=' for example.[/quote']

 

Though if he interfered with electrical systems, he shouldn't be able to. Sound like one of his powers is plot immunity.

 

cheers, Mark

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

I have to admit I really enjoyed books Dresden and was more than willing to give things a pass. But I have to admit my interest is waning. The last books was "good" but just didn't have the same zing' date=' if you know what I mean.[/quote']

 

 

I thought Small Favor was the best (well second best after Dead Beat) of the series.

[BlackSword]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

Though if he interfered with electrical systems' date=' he shouldn't be able to. Sound like one of his powers is plot immunity. [/quote']

Each novel usually refines it some. I think the current rule is that he typically only interferes with electronics when he is using magic and the more magic he calls the more it interferes with technology. More sensitive electronics are the most susceptible, so usually people in the know turn off their computers before he enters the room as a protective measure. In the most recent book he visisted another wizard in the hospital, and the other wizard wanted to be released soon so she didn't interfere with anyone else's life support. But yeah, pretty much the anti-technology field is only mentioned when it is conveniant or inconveniant without the full ramifications being considered.

I have to admit I really enjoyed books Dresden and was more than willing to give things a pass. But I have to admit my interest is waning. The last books was "good" but just didn't have the same zing' date=' if you know what I mean.[/quote']

I enjoy them, though I do agree with your point about the last one being 'just good.' It seems like Butcher is falling into the pattern of not using an editor so the writing is not as tight as it could be. The several page dissertation on 'what is pain' was a bit much for me. More recently the books have become a bit formulaic, you can pick out in the first few pages who the bad guy is. Also the number of times Harry gets knocked out he should be suffering from brain damage.

[Spence]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

 

I thought Small Favor was the best (well second best after Dead Beat) of the series.

 

 

I enjoy them, though I do agree with your point about the last one being 'just good.' It seems like Butcher is falling into the pattern of not using an editor so the writing is not as tight as it could be. The several page dissertation on 'what is pain' was a bit much for me. More recently the books have become a bit formulaic, you can pick out in the first few pages who the bad guy is. Also the number of times Harry gets knocked out he should be suffering from brain damage.

 

I think for me the problem is Harry was a fantastic read when he was stuggling at the bottom.

But now he is a uber mage and the "poor outclassed me" is wearing thin. Things may be tough. But he is in the big leagues and would know it.

At least it seems that way to me.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

I think for me the problem is Harry was a fantastic read when he was stuggling at the bottom.

But now he is a uber mage and the "poor outclassed me" is wearing thin. Things may be tough. But he is in the big leagues and would know it.

At least it seems that way to me.

 

I can see that.

 

But his opposition has increased, and he is still outclassed. . Dealing with a group of Denarians almost killed him again....

 

But I can understand your side of it.

 

I love him being an ubermage though.

 

 

 

[Spence]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

I can see that.

 

But his opposition has increased, and he is still outclassed. . Dealing with a group of Denarians almost killed him again....

 

But I can understand your side of it.

 

I love him being an ubermage though.

 

 

 

I prefer to say

outnumbered. Not outclassed.

 

 

But I didn't say I didn't enjoy the book, and I didn't mean to imply it wasn't good. Just that the luster has worn off a bit

[sbarron]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

But I didn't say I didn't enjoy the book' date=' and I didn't mean to imply it wasn't good. Just that the luster has worn off a bit [/quote']It hasn't for me. However...

 

 

I'd like the character to start changing to fit his new role. I am getting tired of Harry always being scared, always being frazzled, feeling overwhelmed, etc. He's becoming a bad-ass, and needs to start acting like it. The whole "under-powered mage/detective defending humanity while being witty to cover his fear" is a great place to start. But how many "big" baddies does he have to beat before he realizes that he's not a chump anymore?

 

To the writer's credit, the characters around Harry seem to have realized that he is not a chump. And I appreciate that. But I'm ready for Harry to start to come into his own... start acting more like Gandolf and less like a noble-minded Wormtail.

 

[archermoo]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

I guess I need to give deLint another try. I tried to read Moonheart years ago and just couldn't get into it. The same with a few of his other books. But it has been a while.

 

I strongly recommend it, but then again I also love Moonheart, so our tastes might not be the same.

 

Though for a different flavour I'd recommend his Newford books.

[Karmakaze]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

Though if he interfered with electrical systems, he shouldn't be able to. Sound like one of his powers is plot immunity.

 

cheers, Mark

 

It does seem to be a matter of complexity. He deliberately drives a very old car because it has fewer complex systems to break down and what it has can be fixed by hand. On the one occasion he borrowed a newer car, it developed quirks very quickly.

 

As I recall, the explanation isn't that the anti-tech field automatically stops all technology from working, just that it increases the odds of a malfunction. So he doesn't put out streetlights by walking past them, but odds are the ones outside his office burn out more often than the ones a few blocks away. I seem to recall his hot water boiler was out for several books running, as well.