Urban Fantasy dead horses.

[Karmakaze]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

Personally, in Urban Fantasy, the fact that all this mysterious stuff goes along and the mundanes don't figure it out really bugs me. Or rather the reason keeps changing, sometimes within the same day:

 

1) The mundanes are "half-asleep" and therefore will believe any half-believable excuse that will allow them to say "asleep" and unaware.

 

2) Everybody is in on a giant conspiracy to keep mortals "asleep". And to break this taboo is far worse than any mortal sin to maintain it. And those in the know, will punish you for doing something stupid and obviously magical where the mundanes can see it and can't "unsee" it.

 

3) The veil between worlds is fragile and if one does something stupid and obviously magical then the veil rips and bad stuff happens to everyone. Possible through some magical creatures that embodies "the bad stuff".

 

 

Now, you could have all 3, but it's rare to see it work properly.

 

I tend to go with #1, with the implication that it's not a matter of people being sheep who are repressing because they can't handle the real world, but that there's some underlying magical effect causing it. (Folks who actively try to resist, or who have magical conditions that make it impossible to stop noticing can avoid the effect, otherwise...)

 

It's cheesy and a bit awkward, but it falls under the same sort of genre enforcement that stops super-scientists in superhero games from actually changing the world very much.

 

I have a harder time with the "it's a big conspiracy" thing, at least partially because at one point people did believe in a lot of these magical creatures. So not only would the conspiracy have to manage 99.9% suppression despite today's very efficient recording and communications technology, but at some point this conspiracy managed to make the whole world stop believing in the first place. I have noticed a fair number of Urban Fantasy novels that take the premise that supernatural creatures had gone more or less underground, but have realized that with current population density and the loss of anonymity that just keeping to themselves isn't going to fly anymore, so the settings show various supernatural groups either preparing to let the world know about them, or having done so in the last decade or so of story time.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

.

 

I have a harder time with the "it's a big conspiracy" thing, at least partially because at one point people did believe in a lot of these magical creatures...

 

At one point? I know guys at work who believe in a new big conspiracy every day before breakfast just to stay in practice.

 

Oh... you meant the other kind of magical creature. Never mind.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

I think the issue isn't with the presence of (vampires, werewolves, elves, whatever) in the setting. I think the issue is presenting (vampires, werewolves, elves, whatever) as the Mary Sue of the setting. For instance, the notion that (vampires, werewolves, elves, whatever) are prettier, longer lived, or just plain cooler than everyone else, to the point that the setting becomes about them.

[teh bunneh]

Anne Rice and White Wolf have a lot to answer for!

 

I think the issue isn't with the presence of (vampires' date=' werewolves, elves, whatever) in the setting. I think the issue is presenting (vampires, werewolves, elves, whatever) as the Mary Sue of the setting. For instance, the notion that (vampires, werewolves, elves, whatever) are prettier, longer lived, or just plain cooler than everyone else, to the point that the setting becomes about them.[/quote']

 

Tru dat.

 

If I were running a UF game, the trope I would drop is that that vampires are brooding, angsty, artistic, romantic, Eurotrash goths overcome with ennui at their sad existance (said sad existance consisting entirely of living forever, being inhumanly beautiful, having incredible supernatural powers, and going to heavy metal and/or goth clubs every night).

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Anne Rice and White Wolf have a lot to answer for!

 

Mine is the whole: Magic exists, is pervasive, but IT ABSOLUTELY MUST BE HIDDEN FROM THE MUNDANE WORLD!

 

Ugh, this will send my blood pressure into the stratosphere if the Hero UF book features this as a major genre aspect (instead of an optional storytelling choice.)

 

It is so overused, so boring, and so stiefling. I want to see a modern urban fantasy setting where Magic is pervasive, powerful, controllable (but never tameable), and everywhere. Sort of like the magical world of HP, but not so silly, full of plot holes, and again HIDDEN FROM THE MUNDANES.

 

TB

[Markdoc]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

Perhaps I am narrowly focused. I would rather play a campaign that at least mentions the other supernatural tropes as "real" even if they are not actively part of the setting. I guess that I have this perception of Urban Fantasy that it is like our world' date=' only all the things I've ever bought or borrowed a book to research is "real" (within the setting).[/quote']

 

And that is one kind of urban fantasy (I think of it as the 'X-files version) but it is only one kind of urban fantasy. Tim Powers writes great urban fantasy: recognisably our world (right down to the point where you can identify specific settings), an air of great fantasy - and without an alien, vampire, werewolf or faerie in sight. Gene Wolfe's "Free live Free" is urban fantasy without the usual fantasy bestiary, while his "Castleview" is an interesting urban fantasy that does contain them. There are plenty of other examples.

 

I agree with the original poster that many of the usual critters have been so overused that it takes an unusually gifted or imaginative writer to catch my interest. On the other hand, I could deal with the same critters in a game OK: I don't require a game to have a wholly original setting.

 

cheers, Mark

[sbarron]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

Aliens. Vampires. Werewolves. Faeries.

 

You have to admit, all these have seen a lot of coverage over the years. I can't believe there isn't a market for some new "monsters."

 

Are there not more things in heaven and earth than are dreamed about in our fiction?

[Curufea]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

Aliens. Vampires. Werewolves. Faeries.

 

You have to admit, all these have seen a lot of coverage over the years. I can't believe there isn't a market for some new "monsters."

 

Are there not more things in heaven and earth than are dreamed about in our fiction?

 

Apparently roleplaying setting designers are just as unimaginative as Hollywood and would rather settle for the quick buck than original thought.

[Old Man]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

Well, there's the quick buck, and then there's playability. It's already hard enough to find RPG players without forcing them to learn a completely new setting. That's why most fantasy settings are Tolkienized knights/castles/dragons/elves/orcs. You don't have to educate new players as to how the world works, you just have to drop in the place names and go.

 

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be as huge a fan of Hero if I didn't love completely original settings. It's just that I think the average RPG player isn't necessarily willing to earn a history degree for a fictional world in order to play.

[Rage]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

How about cynical chain smoking magicians?

 

Constantine is awesome, the rest?

[sinanju]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

Good ones. Any idea how you would reinvent fairies? I hadn't thought of them.

 

I know I'd reinvent them. I've had the idea for years but have never run a fantasy game to use it.

 

The fairies are the original magical humanoids. They've mostly vanished--died off, moved on to other realms/dimensions/whatever. There are a few still around in the dark corners of the world, beautiful and dangerous, capricious and deadly. But they left a lot of toys behind when they (mostly) left.

 

Including most of the standard D&D races.

 

Dwarves were bred to small and strong to labor in their mines.

 

Hobbits/Halflings were bred to be domestic house slaves.

 

Elves were bred to be pretty, pretty playthings--musical, magical, sexual.

 

Humans are the "utility infielders" breed. Not the strongest, not the fastest, not the hardiest, not the smartest, etc. But they run a close second in all of these categories, so they've done the best in the post-Fairy world, carving out most of it for themselves.

 

Goblins, Orcs, and their like were bred to be cannon fodder when the Fairy Lords pitted armies against one another like a chess game. They breed fast because they got killed off fast. Left to their own devices they achieve a stable population by killing one another off about as fast as they reproduce. (Though occasionally they breed ferociously and swarm out to attack the lands held by dwarves, elves, hobbits and humans.

 

Centaurs, Minotaurs, Giants and the like were bred to be intelligent game animals for the Fairy Lords to hunt when the mood struck them. Giants occasionally show up with two heads or one eye or other abberant features because they're the rarest of the surviving races and badly inbred as a result. Centaurs and minotaurs have done better.

 

When a Fairy appears, it's rather like one of the Gods of Old returning to earth. Whatever happens, it'll be memorable....

[The Monster]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

...note all the following is raw opinion, idiosyncratic and arbitrary - I don't claim you can't make good, valid, UF any other way, this is just what I would want to do...

 

Stuff I wouldn't feature in a UF game if I ran one:

--sexy emo vampires. I *like* Stoker's Dracula, and think it's been badly maligned and misused.

--ineffectual Church. My impression of most UF is that the Church (generally Roman) is either totally ineffectual, or it's the heart of a huge, vile conspiracy. Either way, there's a tendency for everything supernatural to be 'true' except religion. Bah.

--magic as technology. Magic should be atmospheric, odd, and mysterious, a definite alternative to the scientistic mindset. Shadowrun goes as far or farther than I really like to mix the two.

--modern 'occultism' works straight out of the box. My personal take would be that maybe *some* of the stuff works as it is, but most/many people claiming to know the Truth would be at least as muddled and contradictory as many people are about religion and what it actually, historically holds as Truth. Just because Crowley et al. wrote it don't mean it's real.

 

In my opinion, the best urban fantasy RPG setting I've actually read is probably Unknown Armies, maybe followed by In Nomine. Of the White Wolf stuff, my vote goes to Hunter; but I know I'm an odd duck. While 'D&D variant in modern times' (be it d20 Modern, Dresden Files, or whatever) sounds like it could be fun as an occasional, I don't know that it would really inspire me for long.

[Curufea]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

Current styles of fairy I'm aware of/have read-

• Kindly magical creatures - Disney
  
• Another culture/nation of magical creatures with hints of danger - Shakespeare
  
• Inhuman magical creatures with mores different from humanity - Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell, most classic fairy tales.
  
• As above, but with more danger and sex - Laurell K Hamilton
  
• Inhuman alien creatures with mores different from humanity, their own agenda, and lots of power - Torchwood
  
• Humanoid (elf-like) alien creatures that were watchers/influencers of humanity and can walk between worlds - Peter F Hamilton
  
• Humanoid aliens with psionic powers that existed before homo sapiens (in the pleistocene epoch)- Julian May
  
• Aliens in saucers - New age religions and cults
  
• Spirits - Paganism
  

[sbarron]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

Well, there's the quick buck, and then there's playability. It's already hard enough to find RPG players without forcing them to learn a completely new setting. That's why most fantasy settings are Tolkienized knights/castles/dragons/elves/orcs. You don't have to educate new players as to how the world works, you just have to drop in the place names and go.

 

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be as huge a fan of Hero if I didn't love completely original settings. It's just that I think the average RPG player isn't necessarily willing to earn a history degree for a fictional world in order to play.

I totally agree with you. But I also don't think RPGs are the place to start new settings. I'd like to see some novels that feature new "monsters." The RPG could then spring from those books.

 

I was trying to think of some new monsters that have come out recently. Something that wasn't derviative of something else, but still able to capture the public's attention. The Blob was the only new one I could think of, and that was what, 50 years ago? Everything else I could think of was a vampire cross-breed (Underworld, Blade), a human and animal mix (werewolves), aliens and aliens cross breeds (Alien vs. Predator), or killer plants (the Ruins, ala Little Shop of Horrors). Nothing really new came to mind, though I am only aware of what I've seen/read.

 

I did read a book recently that had a "new" monster in it...by Richard Layman, called The Cellar (written in 1980). It was about a monster that I imagined looked like the sewer monster from Big Trouble in Little China. It could cross-breed with humans, had a voracious sexual appetite, and a mouth and tongue on the end of its penis that drove the ladies wild. I'll never read anything by Layman again. I'll give the guy this, though, he's got an imagination.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

Old cliche monsters have been around long enough to become old and cliche for a reason. There are probably a ton of Layman Cellar monsters out there, but the people that know about them either weren't intrigued by them or actively wish they could forget.

[Curufea]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

I totally agree with you. But I also don't think RPGs are the place to start new settings. I'd like to see some novels that feature new "monsters." The RPG could then spring from those books.

 

I heartily disagree - it depends on the nature of the RPG. If you are in a detective, investigation or exploring kind or RPG - these are exactly the kinds of things you need. likewise particular types of horror require things that the players have no knowledge of before hand - the unknown.

It can be a fantasy, science fiction or some other genre - but unknown creatures and settings have a definite place in RPGs. Just not very often in games/settings that are all about adventure and daring-do that requires confidence on the part of the players, and familiarity.

[Karmakaze]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

Stuff I wouldn't feature in a UF game if I ran one:

--sexy emo vampires. I *like* Stoker's Dracula, and think it's been badly maligned and misused.

I agree. Some monsters should stay actual monsters. At the very least, the sort of person who can live with a condition that requires them to eat people on a regular basis isn't going to stay all that sane.

--ineffectual Church. My impression of most UF is that the Church (generally Roman) is either totally ineffectual' date=' or it's the heart of a huge, vile conspiracy. Either way, there's a tendency for everything supernatural to be 'true' except religion. Bah. [/quote']I've pretty much decided that if I ever need to use a magic-worker from an organized religion, I'm going to go with a Rabbi. All you ever see fictional Roman Catholic priests doing are exorcisms (they make one movie and...) [Although, that said, the players in my current Urban Fantasy game have been making use of some NPC Buddhists for assistance.] I suspect the real reason that fantasy shies away from making real-world religious magic work is that there's too much risk of conflicting with the worldviews of real world religious people.

--magic as technology. Magic should be atmospheric' date=' odd, and mysterious, a definite alternative to the scientistic mindset. Shadowrun goes as far or farther than I really like to mix the two. [/quote']I'm ok with this, up to a point. There are actually a few really cool pseudo-pulp detective novels that use cities that run on magic. There's also the RPG vs. fiction issue here - if it doesn't follow at least some sort of rules, then how do you make rules for it? Authors can be capricious, GMs risk annoying their players.

--modern 'occultism' works straight out of the box. My personal take would be that maybe *some* of the stuff works as it is' date=' but most/many people claiming to know the Truth would be at least as muddled and contradictory as many people are about religion and what it actually, historically holds as Truth. Just because Crowley et al. wrote it don't mean it's real. [/quote']I don't see modern 'occultism' working out of the box as much as I see viewpoint characters pitying modern 'occultists' for not seeing the real magic around them.

In my opinion' date=' the best urban fantasy RPG setting I've actually read is probably Unknown Armies, maybe followed by In Nomine. Of the White Wolf stuff, my vote goes to Hunter; but I know I'm an odd duck. While 'D&D variant in modern times' (be it d20 Modern, Dresden Files, or whatever) sounds like it could be fun as an occasional, I don't know that it would really inspire me for long.[/quote']Of the White Wolf stuff, my only issue with Hunter was that the mechanics had some weird balance issues (it seemed either you had something that just nerfed the enemy, or you were wholly ineffective.) That was more of a system issue than a setting issue, though. I was rather fond of Mage, but then, I was an Ars Magica player before White Wolf was founded. (And I might well adapt the Ars Magica system to a modern system before using Mage even now.) I only ran White Wolf because that was the system you could get LARPers to show up for.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

I was trying to think of some new monsters that have come out recently. Something that wasn't derviative of something else' date=' but still able to capture the public's attention. The Blob was the only new one I could think of, and that was what, 50 years ago? Everything else I could think of was a vampire cross-breed (Underworld, Blade), a human and animal mix (werewolves), aliens and aliens cross breeds (Alien vs. Predator), or killer plants (the Ruins, ala Little Shop of Horrors). Nothing really new came to mind, though I am only aware of what I've seen/read.[/quote']

 

I'd place the Xenomorph from Alien as a new monster.

The critters from Tremors.

heck, the little things in the Critters movies.

 

As a few to start that I can think of.

[sbarron]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

I heartily disagree - it depends on the nature of the RPG. If you are in a detective, investigation or exploring kind or RPG - these are exactly the kinds of things you need. likewise particular types of horror require things that the players have no knowledge of before hand - the unknown.

It can be a fantasy, science fiction or some other genre - but unknown creatures and settings have a definite place in RPGs. Just not very often in games/settings that are all about adventure and daring-do that requires confidence on the part of the players, and familiarity.

I think we're just talking about different things. Dropping "new" monsters into a traditional Urban Fantasy setting is not what I'm talking about at all. I'm talking about creating a new Urban Fantasy setting that is build in an urban environment around things that are fantastic, but doesn't include vampires or vampiric things, werewolves or there like, faeries, aliens, mummies, or anything else that's been written extensively about for the past 30 years.

 

Basically, creating a new setting, with new magic and new creatures that aren't just plays on what has gone before. The problem is, as Captain Obvious points out, its difficult to capture the imagination of readers and players with things that are new and unfamiliar. Which is why I suggested novels that contain these new settings first. That would allow people to get comfortable with the setting and its inhabitants before being forced to make a character.

[Curufea]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

That pretty much is what happens in stories with "trips into faerie" - you see it in Stardust when the hero crosses the wall. It happens in movies all the time, virtually every superhero movie for example - the origin of the super takes them into a new world with different rules than ever before.

 

It's only difficult to capture the imagination of readers and players who are only ever comfortable with the familiar and the mundane. It is perfectly easy to capture the interest of those that want the fantastic, the wonder, the new and interesting worlds to explore.

[Inu]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

To fairy appearances, add the current model of White Wolf: fairies are heartless bastards who simply have no understanding of human morals, emotions, or the fact that other beings matter one bit. They're self-centered and out for their own pleasure and amusement. One of their habits is kidnapping humans (usually children) and taking them to be servants. These humans soak up some of the local magic, and if they ever manage to escape (or are set loose, though this is VERY rare), they return to the world with fairy-like abilities... and are prone to being hunted by their former masters (who fortunately are less powerful in this world than their own; in their own they're gods, here, they're merely major villain quality).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

To fairy appearances' date=' add the current model of White Wolf: fairies are heartless bastards who simply have no understanding of human morals, emotions, or the fact that other beings matter one bit. They're self-centered and out for their own pleasure and amusement. One of their habits is kidnapping humans (usually children) and taking them to be servants. These humans soak up some of the local magic, and if they ever manage to escape (or are set loose, though this is VERY rare), they return to the world with fairy-like abilities... and are prone to being hunted by their former masters (who fortunately are less powerful in this world than their own; in their own they're gods, here, they're merely major villain quality).[/quote']

 

That's not too far from real faerie legends... the things were NOT nice to mankind most of the time.

[Spence]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

Finally back to where I can sit down on the forum for a while

 

Again, I suppose where we disagree is the "tired and limp

cliché " part. I absolutely hate the word cliché. It automatically redefines a trope into something bad. I simply do not accept that any trope becomes "tired" unless you wish it to be.

 

Perhaps I am narrowly focused. I would rather play a campaign that at least mentions the other supernatural tropes as "real" even if they are not actively part of the setting. I guess that I have this perception of Urban Fantasy that it is like our world, only all the things I've ever bought or borrowed a book to research is "real" (within the setting).

 

Maybe not UFOs in the space aliens context. That is getting into other genres.

 

But now that you mention it, I would really like to read some Asian Urban Fantasy to see how it compares. That might be an interesting aside to a more "traditional" Urban Fantasy game.

 

I think it may have just clicked. Using my chosen example of Vampires to illustrate what I think is the difference in our angle.

 

I had a world worked up where magic existed. In a nutshell the world has latent magic but it can only be tapped into by someone with the natural talent to wield it. Most of the "mundane" world doesn't believe in magic, not because of any big "conspiracy of silence" but rather the practitioners are so rare, virtually no one in 2008 has even even seen one in passing let alone saw one using their magic. There is no such thing as a "school" or formal magical training. Each fledgling mage is most likely self taught by trial and error or in a master/apprentice relationship. Because they are just people they can be evil or good or anything in between. Only magi can "pierce the veil", or travel to other worlds/dimensions.

 

What does all this have to do with Vamps? Well my world does not have any Vampires (intelligent fanged humanoids that drink blood to live). But the legends and folklore definitely has legends of them, and demons, and fairies and so on. But the source of the legend could have been many things, an insane magi's experiments. A being from beyond the veil. A rare medical condition. And so on.

 

When I ban a trope, I mean I do not write the actual being into my game. But that does not really affect the rumor/legend of its existence. If you were in my game you could be involved in tracking down a "vampire". But if you succeeded in finding it, it most likely would be something else that caused people to think it was a vampire.

 

So Vampires did exist in a fashion, but not as humanoids with pointy teeth living on blood.

[Spence]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

Personally, in Urban Fantasy, the fact that all this mysterious stuff goes along and the mundanes don't figure it out really bugs me. Or rather the reason keeps changing, sometimes within the same day:

 

1) The mundanes are "half-asleep" and therefore will believe any half-believable excuse that will allow them to say "asleep" and unaware.

 

2) Everybody is in on a giant conspiracy to keep mortals "asleep". And to break this taboo is far worse than any mortal sin to maintain it. And those in the know, will punish you for doing something stupid and obviously magical where the mundanes can see it and can't "unsee" it.

 

3) The veil between worlds is fragile and if one does something stupid and obviously magical then the veil rips and bad stuff happens to everyone. Possible through some magical creatures that embodies "the bad stuff".

 

 

Now, you could have all 3, but it's rare to see it work properly.

 

I agree with you on the whole conspiracy angle being dumb. I do have the majority of people not believing it exists in a setting (see my post above). But not because of any intentional plan. But rather there are not enough out there for people the believe in it. For instance if today a flying saucer snatched you up and space bimbo's kidnapped you and then brought you back. Who would believe you? They'd classify you as a nutter if you tried to insist it happened. The same with magic. If you witnessed a magical fight, would the police believe you? Try it

 

Sure there will be believers among the tiny percentage of witnesses, but they will be diluted by the many nutball groups and conspiracy theory people.

[Spence]

Re: Urban Fantasy dead horses.

 

And that is one kind of urban fantasy (I think of it as the 'X-files version) but it is only one kind of urban fantasy. Tim Powers writes great urban fantasy: recognisably our world (right down to the point where you can identify specific settings), an air of great fantasy - and without an alien, vampire, werewolf or faerie in sight. Gene Wolfe's "Free live Free" is urban fantasy without the usual fantasy bestiary, while his "Castleview" is an interesting urban fantasy that does contain them. There are plenty of other examples.

 

I agree with the original poster that many of the usual critters have been so overused that it takes an unusually gifted or imaginative writer to catch my interest. On the other hand, I could deal with the same critters in a game OK: I don't require a game to have a wholly original setting.

 

cheers, Mark

 

*Marks down author/series name*

 

Thanks