Alignments

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Alignments

 

So when you say "a world such as Witch World' date='" etc. I think there's a fundamental miscommunication going on - if that's what YOU think is meant by the word "alignment" then I suspect the word simply does not mean to you the same things it means to the rest of us.[/quote']

 

You might be right but count me out of 'the rest of us'.

 

What do you mean when you say alignment?

 

 

Doc

[Markdoc]

Re: Alignments

 

Is killing kobald children a "good" act?

 

When confronted with that question my "good" Ranger said "Think of me as Nature's way of balancing their population growth."

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Alignments

 

I'm assuming he's mentioning Elric because Elric worships a god of chaos. Elric himself is of course more complex than "alignment-chaotic" and is frequently law abiding.

 

Yep. Although Elric formally serves the Gods of Chaos, he has no problem handling both "good-aligned" and "evil-aligned" artifacts, and actually spends much of his life actually trying to thwart the plans of his evil patrons. That doesn't stop him casually murdering people when he's in a bad mood. (Note: this refers to "Classic Elric" not the newer, emo "Elric-Lite" from his recent revival.) His alignment, if he had any, was Lawful-Chaotic Goodevil.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Alignments

 

What word would you use to describe the division between the Light and the Dark in Witch World and people's affiliation with the respective sides?

 

I'd call it exactly what you did - affiliation. It's like in my current game: the Lord laments "When I came here, I drove the pirates away. I run a fair town, where merchants can trade in freedom, and mothers are not scared to let their children play in the streets. The peasants pay their taxes cheerfully because they are not too heavy and we no longer have tax-farmers roaming the roads with their spiky clubs and branding irons. Everyone is happy! But, nooooo, cast one tiny, inoffensive necromantic spell and suddenly I'm some kind of "dark lord" and people are lining up to stick a sword in me."

 

cheers, Mark

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Alignments

 

Some source material has Law and Chaos (or Good and Evil, or all of them) as fundamental forces of the universe. Being good doesn't just mean you're good in a philosophical sense; it means that you've chosen, either consciously or not, to "align" yourself with the fundamental force of Good.

 

Old school *D&D didn't really give you that much guidance; it didn't say "You can create a world in which these are not just philosophical concepts but fundamental forces." It did take for granted that players of D&D would be familiar with the literature that went into it -- Moorcock and Vance and Howard and Lovecraft and Tolkien -- and would recognize where the tropes came from and why and how (or not) to use them.

 

Hmmm, I feel another thread coming on.

[Clonus]

Re: Alignments

 

I'd call it exactly what you did - affiliation.

 

How is affiliation different from alignment? Is it just the name you object to?

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Alignments

 

How is affiliation different from alignment? Is it just the name you object to?

 

To my mind it is not the name but the historical association.

 

Growing up there were lots of people who would 'lock' you into your chosen alignment and forbid you from doing things because that was 'against your alignment'. I'm not sure that was the fault of the rules any more than any of the other horrors I experienced as a naive young gamer.

 

To me they mean exactly the same and in my game that's what you would find. If you affiliate (or align) yourself with fundamental forces then you get benefits and drawbacks from that. If you do not align yourself then you get none of the bonuses and none of the drawbacks. In some places that makes you an object of suspicion and to others opportunity.

 

You align yourself with 'Good' then you 'detect as Good' and can use those objects restricted for use by scions of Good. etc etc

 

The problem, I think, on these boards with alignment draw from the same poor experiences that I knew when I was younger playing 'the other game'.

 

 

Doc

[sbarron]

Re: Alignments

 

How is affiliation different from alignment? Is it just the name you object to?

I think affiliation is different than alignment. Affiliation, to me, is like joining a political party. You weigh your options, then chose which group either most agrees with your views or will provide you with the most tangible benefits.

 

Alignment is more a question of who the character is...his world view. Alignment itself has nothing to do with the outside world, and everything to do with the characters feelings and what the character believes about reality.

 

A lawful good character would probably affiliate herself with a lawful good church. But she could be affiliated with a chaotic evil one, if she thought she could do the most good there. Heck, and she could probably even be affiliated with both...especially if there were no alignment test requirements, and no gods administering the admissions process. But she couldn't just as easily switch her alignment to chaotic evil, or act in a chaotic evil way, then switch back to lawful good again. That would be totally out-of-character.

 

Granted, these are my take on these terms with all the RPG baggage I carry around. I'm not talking about the actual definitions of the words. Just how I would use them in a gaming context.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Alignments

 

In a real life social context that sounds fine. My problem comes in practical game mechanics. When do you decide if someone detects as good/evil/lawful/chaotic or can use artifacts keyed to those alignments?

 

If it is all subjective to the person then anyone who thinks they are good is good (and detects as so) even if they regularly do evil things? Easy way to get the evil person in is to hypnotise them to believe they are good regardless of their actions or intents.

 

As I said - more game practicalities than anything else.

 

Doc

[sbarron]

Re: Alignments

 

When do you decide if someone detects as good/evil/lawful/chaotic or can use artifacts keyed to those alignments?

The GM has to decide. But this determination is also largely subjective, because its the GMs opinion on the matter. I might think it is a "good" thing to have my character kill the tyranical sheriff of Norfolk. But the GM might see my actions as vigilante, and therefore evil. Maybe allowing everyone access to their own "alignment" chart wouldn't be such a bad thing, afterall. At least then the PCs would know if they and their GM disagreed on the definition of "good" and "evil."

 

Clearly, the genre and setting matter, too. If my character is "Dirty Harry" Callahan, I can do a great deal of harm to people and still be "good" in my story. If my character is Sir Lancelot, though, the standard for "goodness" is much, much higher.

 

Are their any games that reward players for acting in accordance with their character's alignment? Other than continued access to their gods spells, I mean? I think Riddle of Steel had something like this, but rather than broad alignment, there were specific goals the PCs were trying to accomplish. When they were working towards those goals, they got extra dice, or something? Anyone?

[Lucius]

Re: Alignments

 

I'd call it exactly what you did - affiliation. It's like in my current game: the Lord laments "When I came here' date=' I drove the pirates away. I run a fair town, where merchants can trade in freedom, and mothers are not scared to let their children play in the streets. The peasants pay their taxes cheerfully because they are not too heavy and we no longer have tax-farmers roaming the roads with their spiky clubs and branding irons. Everyone is happy! But, nooooo, cast one tiny, inoffensive necromantic spell and suddenly I'm some kind of "dark lord" and people are lining up to stick a sword in me."[/i']

 

cheers, Mark

 

REPPED!

 

The Necromantic Dark Lord has my vote! Nothing wrong with offering a tax break to citizens who will their bodies to scientific research as long as they don't make it mandatory. I vote “NO” on the proposition “Should the Necromancer have a sword stuck in him?” Sticking swords in people is what the Pirates were all about and we all remember the last time THEY were in power!

 

You might be right but count me out of 'the rest of us'.

 

Doc

 

Are you sure you mean the same thing that Clonus does?

 

It's quite possible, now that I think of it, that every one of us means something different by “alignment” and in that case, the statement “the word simply does not mean to you the same things it means to the rest of us” does not imply “The rest of us agree with me” - it just means “The rest of us don't agree with you.”

 

How is affiliation different from alignment? Is it just the name you object to?

 

As far as I know, no one is “objecting” to anything. I'm certainly not objecting to the word “alignment.” I'm just pointing out that if you use it I'm likely to think it means the same thing that I mean by it, and that leads to communication problems if you mean something different.

 

 

What do you mean when you say alignment?

 

Doc

 

I was a Religious Studies major. I took a lot of courses in the Religious Studies and Philosophy departments. I had a lot of discussions, in and out of class, about morality and ethics, and I don't remember the word “alignment” being used very often.

 

As far as I know (I could be wrong, I often am) the first time the word “alignment” was used with a moral meaning was when it was used in D&D. I don't believe Moorcock used the word for example and I'm pretty sure Norton didn't as I'm an Andre Norton fan since childhood.

 

So when you use the word “alignment” in a context like this, I am likely to think it means exactly what I've known it to mean before, that you are using the word in the only way I've ever known it to be used in anything like this context – to mean the D&D double axis of Good -Evil / Law-Chaos, pretty much as I remember it from when I played D&D. Complete with paladins and inherently aligned creatures and magic items and the Outer Planes and the rest of that baggage.

 

Thus my confusion when a thread has a title “How To Build: Alignments” and Clonus posts

 

Sometimes I find myself wondering whether it's that people think Hero System can't handle a world such as Witch World' date=' or Elric, or for that matter Ars Magica or whether they just think no such world could ever be worth playing in.[/quote']

 

Because to me it's a non-sequitur. If you want to ask “How to Build: A World such as Witch World, or Elric, or Ars Magica” then I would think you would ask that question; if you ask “How to Build: Alignments” I think the question is “How do you create something like the game mechanics of Alignment in D&D?” I don't think I'm the only one who would think that way either. So I'm trying to answer the post I just quoted by pointing out that it's not necessarily “ a world such as Witch World, or Elric, or for that matter Ars Magica” that “people think Hero System can't handle” or “ think no such world could ever be worth playing in.” I think, Clonus, that you are simply seeing people react to what we think you're saying, rather than what you mean to say.

 

Now that I (hopefully) understand better the meaning of the thread title How to Build: Alignments, I can give this answer:

 

That depends entirely on what the word “alignment” means and what you want it to do in the game. Without that information, no sensible answer can be given. Once we know “What” then we can begin to answer “How.” And the question of “Is it worth playing in?”

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The opinions expressed in the post do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Palindromedary Enterprises, it's employees, ownership, management, or palindromedaries. Palindromedary Enterprises is not affiliated (nor aligned) with the Prosperity, Justice, and Necromancy Party.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Alignments

 

Are you sure you mean the same thing that Clonus does?

 

It's quite possible, now that I think of it, that every one of us means something different by “alignment” and in that case, the statement “the word simply does not mean to you the same things it means to the rest of us” does not imply “The rest of us agree with me” - it just means “The rest of us don't agree with you.”

 

I'll bey I dont mean the same as Clonus. I'll bet it does actually mean something slightly different to many people and that anyone thinking of having an alignment system in their game needs to define exactly what they mean by that - it is a very Hero System approach.

 

I was a Religious Studies major. I took a lot of courses in the Religious Studies and Philosophy departments. I had a lot of discussions, in and out of class, about morality and ethics, and I don't remember the word “alignment” being used very often.

 

As far as I know (I could be wrong, I often am) the first time the word “alignment” was used with a moral meaning was when it was used in D&D. I don't believe Moorcock used the word for example and I'm pretty sure Norton didn't as I'm an Andre Norton fan since childhood.

 

The start of this brings real world ethics into it. That is going to cause problems simply because ethics causes problems in the real world. Alignment as we speak of it is a game mechanic that allows a simulation of absolutes that we cannot prove to exist in the real world. They can prove they exist in fantasy realities and affiliation or alignment with such forces may result in very different effects from magic spells.

 

I would agree with you that I dont think that I have read of alignment outside of RPGs and that D&D is the grand-daddy of alignment systems. However, the play of that system has varied wildly from group to group ever since the first edition...

 

 

Doc

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Alignments

 

The GM has to decide. But this determination is also largely subjective' date=' because its the GMs opinion on the matter. I might think it is a "good" thing to have my character kill the tyranical sheriff of Norfolk. But the GM might see my actions as vigilante, and therefore evil. Maybe allowing everyone access to their own "alignment" chart wouldn't be such a bad thing, afterall. At least then the PCs would know if they and their GM disagreed on the definition of "good" and "evil."[/quote']

 

And how do they resolve that - simply accept that the GM is right to call them evil. To me, unless the relationship between the players and GM is very good and mature, this will lead to too many arguments, especially when someone is borderline good/evil.

 

Clearly' date=' the genre and setting matter, too. If my character is "Dirty Harry" Callahan, I can do a great deal of harm to people and still be "good" in my story. If my character is Sir Lancelot, though, the standard for "goodness" is much, much higher.[/quote']

 

I think it is most appropriate for fantasy settings where such things as good and evil will have concrete effects in magic etc than more modern settings when it is more a matter of how you appear in the press. I would not be in favour of alignment in a Dirty Harry RPG.

 

Are their any games that reward players for acting in accordance with their character's alignment? Other than continued access to their gods spells' date=' I mean? I think Riddle of Steel had something like this, but rather than broad alignment, there were specific goals the PCs were trying to accomplish. When they were working towards those goals, they got extra dice, or something? Anyone? [/quote']

 

Pendragon. There are sets of virtues that all characters strive towards that provide them with social bonuses.

 

 

Doc

[Markdoc]

Re: Alignments

 

How is affiliation different from alignment? Is it just the name you object to?

 

No, because in the Witch world books, the various factions are just that: factions. In D&D alignment physically marks you: people can identify your alignment like it was bloodtype, no matter what you're thinking or doing at the time, you develop an allergy to certain aligned items and other function differently in your hands, it specifically defines even your choice of careers. In the Andre Norton series referred to, many people see the witchborn as "evil" - and although they might be physically marked (like, for example, Kerovan) they can be good, evil, or - like most people, a mixture of the two. People can (and do) switch factions: they don't suffer functional problems - they have to watch out for former associates who feel betrayed.

 

In the example given above, the Paladin who thought he could do more good associated with a Chaotic Evil church couldn't even walk into the building without taking a hit on his powers, no matter how noble his intentions. To me, that's alignment: it's a physical aspect of the world, not just a worldview. I've never bothered to build it into my game, but I don't see it as especially illogical. It's just a GM decision that the game universe operates that way.

 

The Elric books, the same. Elric is not "Lawful evil" - he's arrogant, self-centred and impulsive, and his actions are motivated primary by revenge, love, lust and hatred rather than "I fight for good" - even if he actually does try to do good when he can. This is a setting (actually THE setting) where law and chaos are actual manifest forces, but still, none of the major characters behave as though they had an alignment and would be chastised if they strayed from it. When Elric did "good things" he might anger his Chaotic patrons, but he didn't lose his magic, he didn't start "detecting" any differently and he could still use his evil artifact sword just fine.

 

So my objection is really more that the two things are quite different "Alignment" in the D&D context has a specific meaning that I don't really see in any fantasy fiction that I've read: like D&D magic, it's become its own thing.

 

cheers, Mark

[Clonus]

Re: Alignments

 

No' date=' because in the Witch world books, the various factions are just that: factions. [/quote']

 

No they aren't. Dark and Light are kinds of magic that collect in puddles in certain parts of the world. The first thing a magician of the Light does when they meet another magician of the Light is cast a spell creating a glowing pattern in the air, because only someone of the Light can use Light spells and someone of the Light can never cast a spell producing darkness. In the published collection of Witch World derivative works, one of the authors wanted to bring her vampire with a heart of gold across into Witch World, and Andre Norton said "Sure, but he can't keep his susceptibility to sunshine because in Witch World the Light can never hurt good people."

 

The Elric books, the same. Elric is not "Lawful evil" -

 

Of course not. He's Chaotic.

 

he's arrogant, self-centred and impulsive, and his actions are motivated primary by revenge, love, lust and hatred rather than "I fight for good" - even if he actually does try to do good when he can. This is a setting (actually THE setting) where law and chaos are actual manifest forces, but still, none of the major characters behave as though they had an alignment and would be chastised if they strayed from it.

 

None of my D&D characters ever behaved as though they had an alignment and would be chastised if they strayed from it either. And that included my Lawful Good paladin.

 

 

When Elric did "good things" he might anger his Chaotic patrons, but he didn't lose his magic, he didn't start "detecting" any differently and he could still use his evil artifact sword just fine.

 

Chaotic, not evil.

[Egyptoid]

Re: Alignments

 

so alignment in your way of thinking is an aura, not a thought process.

 

in my way of thinking, I would say:

 

Brakkenor is a disorganized and selfish brute,

therefore society labels hims "chaotic evil"

 

but again, what value does this system add to Fantasy Hero ?

does it matter to the players, the characters, the gods, the GM, or who exactly ?

 

do players get rewarded for playing their alignments?

is party unity an issue?

[Clonus]

Re: Alignments

 

so alignment in your way of thinking is an aura, not a thought process.

 

in my way of thinking, I would say:

 

Brakkenor is a disorganized and selfish brute,

therefore society labels hims "chaotic evil"

 

but again, what value does this system add to Fantasy Hero ?

 

Fantasy is filled with bipolar universes and there's also the occasion tripolar or multipolar world as well. D&D didn't make up the Law versus Chaos concept out of whole cloth. They got it from Three Hearts and Three Lions where it has significant real effects. You can invoke the power of God to drive back the power of Chaos (magic) and in a game situation that calls for game mechanics. Even before Poul Anderson bipolarity was at the heart of Christian mythology. Do you have God's power, or are your powers those of the Devil? When you step on holy ground is your true form revealed?

[Markdoc]

Re: Alignments

 

No they aren't. Dark and Light are kinds of magic that collect in puddles in certain parts of the world. The first thing a magician of the Light does when they meet another magician of the Light is cast a spell creating a glowing pattern in the air' date=' because only someone of the Light can use Light spells and someone of the Light can never cast a spell producing darkness. In the published collection of Witch World derivative works, one of the authors wanted to bring her vampire with a heart of gold across into Witch World, and Andre Norton said "Sure, but he can't keep his susceptibility to sunshine because in Witch World the Light can never hurt good people."[/quote']

 

You may be right: it's more than 30 years since I read the books. I don't recall anything that you mention above, but I've only read a half dozen of the series. I do seem to recall that while dark magic was corrupting, witches could be both malicious and still use "good magic" (in other words, it's not an alignment thing as I understand alignment in D&D). In Hallack, "light magicians" were often persecuted by otherwise "good" people simply on suspicion, and on the other side of the ocean Falconer's Eyre and Estcarp fight even though they are both "of the light" because they disagree over the role of women. Even the "good witches" of Estcarp try to kill Jaelithe simply because she has retained her magic after losing her virginity. As I recall it, there's a disconnect between magic and behaviour.

 

None of my D&D characters ever behaved as though they had an alignment and would be chastised if they strayed from it either. And that included my Lawful Good paladin.

 

That's a bit odd - the rules suggest that he should be chastised for straying. Specifically, a Paladin

loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act

and even unwittingly committing an evil act (or doing it while mind controlled, according to the rules) can lead to the loss of power until an atonement spell is used to restore them. Earlier versions of D&D were even more drastic, with the GM encouraged to track behaviour against alignment with loss of powers, and even loss of levels a consequence of "acting out of alignment".

 

Chaotic' date=' not evil.[/quote']

Chaotic and evil are the same thing, in the Elric-verse. There are no "good" chaotic powers and no "evil" lawful powers - there was a simple law=good - chaos=evil axis in the Elric stories, rather like the axis now adopted for 4E D&D. Elric himself would certainly be "evil" using the traditional D&D scale: he kills friends and innocents, sacrifices an entire city for revenge, summons demons and wields a sword that is unambiguously evil. He's shunned and hated ... and yet he works mostly for the cause of law, and often puts himself in danger for altruistic reasons or to protect societies or companions, which would suggest he's actually lawful good. He simply doesn't fit on the D&D alignment grid. You could very easily play in the Elric universe without using alignment (in the D&D sense) for player characters at all - although if you wanted you could also use an alignment system.

 

cheers, Mark

[Clonus]

Re: Alignments

 

 

That's a bit odd - the rules suggest that he should be chastised for straying. Specifically, a Paladin and even unwittingly committing an evil act (or doing it while mind controlled, according to the rules) can lead to the loss of power until an atonement spell is used to restore them.

 

Yes, but why act like you're worried about it?

 

 

Chaotic and evil are the same thing, in the Elric-verse. There are no "good" chaotic powers and no "evil" lawful powers - there was a simple law=good - chaos=evil axis in the Elric stories, rather like the axis now adopted for 4E D&D. Elric himself would certainly be "evil" using the traditional D&D scale: he kills friends and innocents, sacrifices an entire city for revenge, summons demons and wields a sword that is unambiguously evil. He's shunned and hated ... and yet he works mostly for the cause of law, and often puts himself in danger for altruistic reasons or to protect societies or companions, which would suggest he's actually lawful good. He simply doesn't fit on the D&D alignment grid.

 

He starts out Chaotic and ends up Neutral.

 

You could very easily play in the Elric universe without using alignment (in the D&D sense) for player characters at all -

 

I'm not sure what the D&D sense is. It is true that there's no Detect Chaos or Protection from Chaos spells in Elric so in that sense it's different.

[Markdoc]

Re: Alignments

 

Yes' date=' but why act like you're worried about it?[/quote']

 

Because you have to watch very carefully what you do: even an inadvertent act can - according to the rules - strip you of most of your power and suddenly (for example) render you unable to hold your holy sword, or enter certain buildings. In that regard, D&D alignment is different from the morality system in fantasies like the eternal champion series, where quite often evil means are used to good ends. Elric's one example, Erekose (who commits genocide on his own species) is another. Slaughtering babies by the million doesn't cause Erekose to lose any of his powers, and his holy sword works just fine for sticking children with. A D&D cleric or Paladin, however who slaughters even one innocent baby - no matter how good the cause - is likely to face serious physical/mental changes. And there are magic items which just touching can change your alignment and strip you of your powers - and if you can ever get rid of it you still have to atone and give up XP.

 

That's why I regard D&D alignment as something different from personal attitude: it really is much more like physically aligning yourself with a specific supernatural force than joining a political party or choosing a philosophy.

 

He starts out Chaotic and ends up Neutral.

 

Matter of opinion, I guess, which is what makes any discussion of alignment tricky. To me he starts out leaning Lawful, ends definately lawful (he's talking with the Gods of Law after all, they are actively helping him and he is actively helping them, and in the end he dies for their cause) and in between his behaviour is definately a mixture of chaotic and lawful. Elric's world, to me, is a perfect example of one where a D&D style alignment matrix for characters doesn't make much sense: there's an axis of supernatural powers, but it is not matched by a philosophical axis of behaviour.

 

I'm not sure what the D&D sense is. It is true that there's no Detect Chaos or Protection from Chaos spells in Elric so in that sense it's different.

 

See above: the distinguishing feature of D&D alignment for me is the way it ties philosophy/behaviour together with physical aspects like the detect spells you mention above. Another good example is protection from alignment X spells. These not only give alignment specific bonuses, but prevent physical movement across the ward. In the Elricverse magical barriers exist, but they block all supernatural creatures. There's no evidence of an aligned spell - or an alignment specific item for that matter - in the series: Stormbringer and Mournblade are definitely evil, but anyone can touch them without physical damage.

 

cheers, Mark

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Alignments

 

Chaotic and evil are the same thing, in the Elric-verse. There are no "good" chaotic powers and no "evil" lawful powers - there was a simple law=good - chaos=evil axis in the Elric stories, rather like the axis now adopted for 4E D&D.

 

Not quite. In the Elric universe, Chaos is the source of all beauty as well as pain, and Law can be extremely Procrustean in its applications. One of the stories has a world where Law has totally conquered Chaos, and it's a totally flat, gray, drab world.

[Markdoc]

Re: Alignments

 

Not quite. In the Elric universe' date=' Chaos is the source of all beauty as well as pain, and Law can be extremely Procrustean in its applications. One of the stories has a world where Law has totally conquered Chaos, and it's a totally flat, gray, drab world.[/quote']

 

Yeah, I know, I was simplifying a bit: but only a bit. Although we are told that a total victory by law would be as dreadful as a total victory by chaos, and that a balance is necessary, the Lords of Law are uniformly, polite, and helpful - even when they try to manipulate Elric, they helpfully admit it up front. The chaotic powers are uniformly untrustworthy, violent and cruel. So theory aside, there's a strong correlation between law and what we would consider good and the reverse with Chaos. This is the same in the Corum stories: the law venerating Vadhagh and their human allies are just, peaceful and cultured. The chaos worshipping Mabden are cruel, treacherous and primitive.

 

cheers, Mark

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Alignments

 

To my mind it is not the name but the historical association.

 

Growing up there were lots of people who would 'lock' you into your chosen alignment and forbid you from doing things because that was 'against your alignment'. I'm not sure that was the fault of the rules any more than any of the other horrors I experienced as a naive young gamer.

 

I have lots of stories where that happened. But I did turn it around in one game. One player insisted on trying to steal my mage's spellbooks and my character being basically good did not punish his "good nature" attempts to get rich quick. However, he did cross the line and attempt to kill the mage rather than steal from him.

 

One web spell stopped the thief cold. The GM reminded us that there was an active volcano nearby. "Wait, you're GOOD. You CAN'T leave me to die out here." The thief whined.

 

I took a very deliberate look at my character sheet and broke character, "What's my alignment again? Oh yes, Chaotic Good."

 

(In character) "There's a fairly good chance that you will escape long before the lava comes down the mountain. And if not... Que sara sara."

 

My mage managed to catch up with the rest of the party. Knowing what transpired out of game but trying to play in character, "What happened to the thief?", the fighter asked.

 

"Oh, he got TIED UP dealing with some sticky problems." The GM ruled the party could figure what happened, which I didn't mind and rescued the thief.

 

That was the running gag for several campaigns, I would just give a wicked smile and say, "Hmm... What's my alignment again?"

 

But after that point, we never had a serious alignment related problem again.

[sbarron]

Re: Alignments

 

I have lots of stories where that happened. But I did turn it around in one game. One player insisted on trying to steal my mage's spellbooks and my character being basically good did not punish his "good nature" attempts to get rich quick. However' date=' he did cross the line and attempt to kill the mage rather than steal from him.[/quote']Repeated attempts to steal from you and then an attempt on your life is just way over the line.

 

A) I can't believe the party was ok with the thief's behavior.

What was the thief's alignment that allowed him to act like a jackass?

C) You should have used lightning bolt instead of web.

 

Being good doesn't mean you have to be a pollyanna. If someone tries to kill you, you can kill them without remorse and it will have no impact on your alignment. At least in my games...

 

"Chaotic good characters are strong indivualists marked by a streak of kindness and benevolence. They believe in all the virtues of goodness and right, but they have little use for laws and regulations. They have no use for people who "try to push folk around and tell them what to do." Their actions are guided by their own moral compass which, although good, may not always be in perfect agreement with the rest of society. A brave frontiersman forever moving on as settlers follow in his wake is an example of a chaotic good character."

[John-Walton]

Re: Alignments

 

Being good doesn't mean you have to be a pollyanna. If someone tries to kill you' date=' you can kill them without remorse and it will have no impact on your alignment. At least in my games...[/quote']

 

but still, what is the value of an alignment system in Fantasy Hero ?

it seems to be an artifact of D&D style thinking, prejudicial to old payers,

and probably confusing to new ones.

 

does it help the players role-play ?

does it help the GM award exp. pts ?

does it define clans and factions?

 

even if you answer yes to the above questions or others,

IMHO the Disads on the sheets do a better job of defining things.