Decoupling Movement from Speed or Segement moviement

[nexus]

Does anyone have any house rules regarding this? I ask that if you just don't like the idea please don't clog up the thread pointing that out. It's not really an argument I wanted to have in this thread.

[Kenn]

Re: Decoupling Movement from Speed or Segement moviement

 

No house rules, sorry.

 

As a personal rule, though, I keep a close eye on the number of inches of running and SPD. A 4 SPD person, with just the base 6" of running can run a mile in about 3 minutes 21 seconds. At 7" we get 2 minutes and 52 seconds. I'm not sure what the world's record is for running the mile is, but I know four minutes used to be some kind of benchmark for it.

[Mike W]

Re: Decoupling Movement from Speed or Segement moviement

 

No house rules, sorry.

 

As a personal rule, though, I keep a close eye on the number of inches of running and SPD. A 4 SPD person, with just the base 6" of running can run a mile in about 3 minutes 21 seconds. At 7" we get 2 minutes and 52 seconds. I'm not sure what the world's record is for running the mile is, but I know four minutes used to be some kind of benchmark for it.

 

The world record for the Mile is around 3:35 or so.

 

As for decoupling movement and speed, I haven't had much success with it. The game just doesn't lend itself well to it. About the best I can suggest is to basically figure out how fast in real life(in mph or kph) you want the character to be able to move, work out how many inches that is and then give them enough move and SPD to cover it, then handle chases cinematically.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Decoupling Movement from Speed or Segement moviement

 

I think this has come up in the past, but I'd be at a loss to figure out what key words to search for since the forum search doesn't like three letter words. =(

 

The biggest problem to me in divorcing the two concepts is that Hero is very much a turn-based game (not "Turn," I'm talking about taking turns to go, not game terms breaking down units of time), and in any turn-based game, each player typically has a list of things they can do on their turn. In some games, they can do things on the other player's turn as well.

 

If you wanted to divorce movement and SPD, you'd basically be saying that movement is something it doesn't have to be your turn (phase) to do. In the case of Hero, you would also have to consider if it's something you want done on nobody's turn (segments between phases), which is probably the only way to do it with the variable SPD of characters. (That's assuming you want to keep SPD, and simply disconnect it from Movement.)

 

So, the first step would be to calculate the character's maximum movement per Segment.

 

Next, you would simply allow charcters to use their movement at any time during combat time, including off segments. But that sounds horribly broken to me. I think if the combatants are mainly melee, it would create some crazily long combats as people reposition (act) on phases that nobody can attack or use powers (every other act). That's a pretty huge change in the combat rules.

 

Now, it's less of a problem if you toss out the SPD chart altogether for combat and read the SPD chart as "Attacks/Actions per turn" like other, more abstract, games. Of course, that also has a pretty large impact on a lot of game rules too.

[Mike W]

Re: Decoupling Movement from Speed or Segement moviement

 

I think this has come up in the past, but I'd be at a loss to figure out what key words to search for since the forum search doesn't like three letter words. =(

 

The biggest problem to me in divorcing the two concepts is that Hero is very much a turn-based game (not "Turn," I'm talking about taking turns to go, not game terms breaking down units of time), and in any turn-based game, each player typically has a list of things they can do on their turn. In some games, they can do things on the other player's turn as well.

 

If you wanted to divorce movement and SPD, you'd basically be saying that movement is something it doesn't have to be your turn (phase) to do. In the case of Hero, you would also have to consider if it's something you want done on nobody's turn (segments between phases), which is probably the only way to do it with the variable SPD of characters. (That's assuming you want to keep SPD, and simply disconnect it from Movement.)

 

So, the first step would be to calculate the character's maximum movement per Segment.

 

Next, you would simply allow charcters to use their movement at any time during combat time, including off segments. But that sounds horribly broken to me. I think if the combatants are mainly melee, it would create some crazily long combats as people reposition (act) on phases that nobody can attack or use powers (every other act). That's a pretty huge change in the combat rules.

 

Now, it's less of a problem if you toss out the SPD chart altogether for combat and read the SPD chart as "Attacks/Actions per turn" like other, more abstract, games. Of course, that also has a pretty large impact on a lot of game rules too.

 

I think you've done a good job here of summarizing the difficulty in separating SPD and Movement. The very nature of HERO makes it almost impossible to do without decoupling other things to the point that it no longer feels like the same game. Depending on your point of view, this may or may not be a bad thing, but reagardless of how you feel about it, it REALLY changes the game.

[Klaus Mogensen]

Re: Decoupling Movement from Speed or Segement moviement

 

One rather simple way: You buy your movement as m/s (meters per second or meters per segment, take your pick). You can only move when you have a phase; then you move for all the segments since you last had a phase. Move Through/By damage is based on your m/s movement capacity.

 

Another way: But movement as "/turn. You can move ("/turn)/SPD (rounded down) in a phase. A SPD 4 character could e.g. buy 28"/turn, moving 7" per phase. Move Through/By damage is based on your "/turn movement capacity.

 

Segmented movement would be easier if there were fewer segments. In the 6th edition discussion, I have at different times suggested a 6-segment turn (where characters with SPD > 6 act twice in some segments) and a 4-round turn (with an action-point system which allows acting twice in a round). In either of these, segmented movement would be much less of a hassle (in fact, it is an integrated part of the action-point system).

 

You can see a description of the action-point system here.

 

- Klaus

[Fitz]

Re: Decoupling Movement from Speed or Segement moviement

 

I have tried decoupling movement from SPD, and I held out hopes that it could be done elegantly, but the knock-on effects throughout the system eventually sent me back to the Old Ways. I do still think it would be better -- I don't much like the idea that being more nimble makes you run faster -- but it just required too much work for a lazy GM like me to sustain.

[Maur]

Re: Decoupling Movement from Speed or Segement moviement

 

One rather simple way: You buy your movement as m/s (meters per second or meters per segment' date=' take your pick). You can only move when you have a phase; then you move for all the segments since you last had a phase. Move Through/By damage is based on your m/s movement capacity.[/quote']

 

Which makes a lot more sense for those speedsters. Higher velocity should result in higher damage, but it doesn't quite build that way under the stock rules unless you leave your SPD alone and boost your Running to get to the same velocity.

[Beast]

Re: Decoupling Movement from Speed or Segement moviement

 

we only convert to mph or kph when out of combat

we still need speed to do the numbers

 

 

Does anyone have any house rules regarding this? I ask that if you just don't like the idea please don't clog up the thread pointing that out. It's not really an argument I wanted to have in this thread.

[Beast]

Re: Decoupling Movement from Speed or Segement moviement

 

I alsp see to decouple speed and movement you would need to figure out these things

1 movement per segment doing a half move so you can attack and need to know how many segments between attacks

2 movement per segment doing a full move/through/by and how many segments between attacks

3 movement per segment doing stage 1 of noncombat movement

4 as above stage 2 and so on

 

you will probably have to use a form of plotted movement as in Star fleet battles including persue,maintain distance,and avoid and evasive(to simulate dodge)

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Decoupling Movement from Speed or Segement moviement

 

haven't got any play tested rules but have thought about it in the past.

 

My thoughts were to assume, for the purposes of the game that the base SPD of movement was 4. Movement would then be bought per turn (just like anything else) and would cost 1pts per 4 inches.

 

Your movement would then take place per segment in (movement inches)/12.

 

I stalled when I had to sit down and think about acceleration and deceleration and where that movement sat with action phases.

 

Downside - increased SPD has no impact on movement velocity. So I thought that a +1/4 advantage that changed the 4 inches for (SPD) inches would be acceptable.

 

beyond that, nothing.

 

 

Doc

[Utech]

Re: Decoupling Movement from Speed or Segement moviement

 

Multiply your movement in inches by your Speed. Divide by 12. That is how far your character can move each phase. Attacks are still limited to phases shown on the Speed Chart. They can be held as normal.

 

Example:

Running 6"

Speed 4

6 x 4 / 12 = 2

Phase 1: You can move up to 2"

Phase 2: You can move up to 2"

Phase 3: You can move up to 2"

and

attack (or hold that attack)

Phase 4: You can move up to 2"

etc.

 

Special problems:

1. You need to keep track of total movement over several phases to ensure that you have not moved more than half your movement before making an attack. (Extra Time attacks change this, of course)
   
2. You need to keep track of total movement over several phases to know your total velocity for Move By and/or Move Through attacks.
   
3. Haymakers are pretty much useless.
   
4. Leaping requires you to declare a target hex and spend several phases in the air.
   
5. Teleporting characters can make multiple short-range ports or (if you'll allow), declare a target hex and spend several phases 'saving up' movement until they've banked enough to make their port.
   

[nexus]

Re: Decoupling Movement from Speed or Segement moviement

 

.

*decoupled movement suggestion snipped for length*

 

First, thanks for the suggestions and you raise some good points.

 

[*]Haymakers are pretty much useless.

 

Agreed,That's a definite drawback and a fairly big one. Haymakers are a very cinematic maneuver.

 

[*]Leaping requires you to declare a target hex and spend several phases in the air.

 

I actually kind of like this. It gives a mechanical reason why most Bricks don't bound from place to place to all the time despite their "free" Leaping from a high Strength being higher than than their Running some cases.

 

[*]Teleporting characters can make multiple short-range ports or (if you'll allow), declare a target hex and spend several phases 'saving up' movement until they've banked enough to make their port.

 

That is a little wonky. I guess Teleport could also be the exception. You can only use it on your Phase but you can cover the total distance in one "pop".

[Klaus Mogensen]

Re: Decoupling Movement from Speed or Segement moviement

 

The main argument against segmented movement seems to be that there are too many segments in a turn, making it too time-consuming. Well, here is a fix for that:

 

• A turn is subdivided into 4 rounds of 3 seconds/segments each.
  
• Characters with SPD > 4 will act more than once in some rounds, but cannot act twice in the same segment (first action in the first segment of the round, second action in the second segment of the round, third action in the third segment of the round).
  
• You can move once per round, regardless of SPD (usually in conjuntion with an action phase, if you have one that round).
  
• The cost of movement is unchanged (still e.g. 2 points per " of Running).
  
• This gives a fixed conversion rate of 5"/round = 12 kph.
  
• In the low end of the Time Table, replace "1 phase" with "1 round".
  

This gives a new, simplified SPD chart:

 

- Klaus

[Maur]

Re: Decoupling Movement from Speed or Segement moviement

 

And now we're heading towards GURPS and the 1 second round, heheh.

[Adventus]

Re: Decoupling Movement from Speed or Segement moviement

 

The current world record in the mile is 3:43.13, set by Hicham El Guerrouj of Morocco on July 7, 1999.

 

The current women’s record is 4:12.56 by Svetlana Masterkova of Russia, set on August 14, 1996.

[Outsider]

Re: Decoupling Movement from Speed or Segement moviement

 

Instead of going to segmented movement, how about just buying movement per turn and dividing by SPD to get how much a character can use per phase. SPD thus no longer increases a character's movement. If a character wants to move faster, he should buy a movement power.

 

A base character gets 12" of Running per Turn, is SPD 2, and therefore moves 6" each of his phases.

 

If he bought his SPD up to 4, he'd move 3" per Phase (12"/4 SPD) since he still has only 12" of Running per turn.

 

 

Adjustments needed elsewhere :

 

Movement powers cost half as much. 1" of Running, Flight, Teleport costs 1 CP. 1" of Swimming, Leaping, Gliding costs 1/2 CP.

 

Damage added for movement to a Move Through is calculated using the characters movement per turn divided by 6 instead of 3. For move By it is divided by 10 instead of 5.

 

Endurance cost of moving is paid per turn at 1 END per 5" moved during the turn.

 

 

 

How it works out in the real world

 

Normal Person (Base Character) :

12"/Turn = 60"/Minute = 3600"/Hour = 7200"/Hour (non-combat) = 14.4 kph = 9 mph.

 

Fast Person (Running bought to maximum non-double cost value) :

20"/Turn = 100"/Minute = 6000"/Hour = 12000"/Hour (non-combat) = 24 kph = 15 mph

 

Abnormally Fast Person (Running bought to 150% NCM (hard cap for "normals"))

30"/Turn = 150"/Minute = 9000"/Hour = 18000"/Hour (non-combat) = 36 kph = 22.5 mph

 

So...

12"/Turn = 1 mile in 400 seconds (6 minutes, 40 seconds)

20"/Turn = 1 mile in 240 seconds (4 minutes, 0 seconds)

30"/Turn = 1 mile in 160 seconds (2 minutes, 40 seconds)*

 

 

*Note that this is still significantly faster than the actual world record of about 3 minutes 43.13 seconds mentioned in the post above mine. But running at 30"/turn means the runner covers 100 meters in 10 seconds, which is pretty close to right for the world's record over that distance. Of course, in the real world people who run world record miles don't actually sprint all the way...

[Klaus Mogensen]

Re: Decoupling Movement from Speed or Segement moviement

 

Instead of going to segmented movement, how about just buying movement per turn and dividing by SPD to get how much a character can use per phase. SPD thus no longer increases a character's movement. If a character wants to move faster, he should buy a movement power.

 

Adjustments needed elsewhere :

 

Movement powers cost half as much. 1" of Running, Flight, Teleport costs 1 CP. 1" of Swimming, Leaping, Gliding costs 1/2 CP.

 

Damage added for movement to a Move Through is calculated using the characters movement per turn divided by 6 instead of 3. For move By it is divided by 10 instead of 5.

Here, you use SPD 2 as a standard. I think SPD 4 works better as an average for player characters - in the high end for heroic campaigns, but in the low end for superheroic campaigns. So 2"/turn of Flight, etc., would cost 1 point, and movement damage would have a divisor of 12.

 

Endurance cost of moving is paid per turn at 1 END per 5" moved during the turn.

No need for that - just pay when you move, 1 END per 5" moved, same as now.

 

- Klaus

[Outsider]

Re: Decoupling Movement from Speed or Segement moviement

 

SPD 4 might be a more 'average' speed for PCs and supers, but basing it off SPD 4 results in people moving way too fast. With just 1 extra inch of running over base, a SPD 4 character will run at about the speed of an Olympic sprinter. If he buys 10" of running (Normal Characteristic Maximum*), then he runs at a whopping 30 mph, and does the 100 meters in 7.5 seconds. I won't even add up what happens if he pays double for a few more inches of Running, or another pip of SPD...

 

 

The reason I moved to paying END per turn instead of paying per phasehas to do with rounding. 12" of movement at SPD 4 = 3" per Phase = 1 END per Phase = 4 END total, when really someone moving 12" should only pay 2 END. Of course, one could just call this a balancing factor for the 2" (0 END) half move, which, if 4 are done in a row, move the character 8" without paying any END...

 

*Normal Characteristic Maximum is the most a character can have and not be remarkable/abnormal. It isnt an iron-clad cap for non-super ability. I usually set the iron clad cap at 150% of NCM.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Decoupling Movement from Speed or Segement moviement

 

Decoupling SPD from movement is as simple (as has been said) as buying movement per turn (at some suitable cost divider: /2, or /4, or whatever).

 

So, assuming /4, a character who wants to run at 40" per turn pays 80/4=20 points for the privilege. You can mess with the ratio if you like.

 

That way the cost of movement is the same for everyone.

 

Then what do you do about actual movement? Either MPT (Move Per Turn)/SPD per phase or MPT/12 per segment. The segment thing will get awkward quick; I'd use MPT/SPD per phase.

 

THEN what do you do about velocity damage? Well, use MPT/12 (for what was v/3) and MPT/20 (for what was v/5), and pro-rate it if you are not using full velocity in a given phase.

 

KB can get a tad weird. Try to ignore that.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Decoupling Movement from Speed or Segement moviement

 

Actually one really really simple fix is to require everyone in the campaign to have the same speed They can voluntarily slow down (or if affected by powers) and they can speed up by the use of powers.

 

Having the same speed for all characters makes may of the problems simply go away.

 

Velocity based damage is still odd, because clearly a character with 6" of movement and a SPD of 6 is in fact running at a higher velocity than a character with 6" of movement and a SPD of 4, so calculate all damage on MPT, for example:

 

(PS how do I display a .jpg I have as a thumbnail in the actual post?)

[Klaus Mogensen]

Re: Decoupling Movement from Speed or Segement moviement

 

(PS how do I display a .jpg I have as a thumbnail in the actual post?)

• First click the "Attachments" icon (the paper clip) to upload a file to the site.
  
• Then click the "Insert Image" icon (yellow with a mountain) to insert the URL of the uploaded file.
  

- Klaus