gravitic well

[Scifi_Toughguy]

I want a big brick-like leg breaker that is (warning: comic book logic and physics imminent) so dense (mutant perhaps) he can exert his own gravitational pull. This is my proposed build.

 

Telekinesis: STR 40 AoE Radius (+1) Personal immunity (+1/4) 135 AP, No Range (-1/2) Affects Whole Object (-1/4) Real cost 77

 

As always comments and critiques are welcome. I also am a bit fuzzy on how the radius will turn out. According to my understanding it'll be calculated on 75 AP so does that make it a 7.5 hex radius of affection?

[Maur]

Re: gravitic well

 

Well, you seem to be missing a limitation or something to describe that it can only be used for pulling towards the character. Plus it would have a falloff in STR the further from him you were...

[Scifi_Toughguy]

Re: gravitic well

 

Good points. I'm thinking I should redefine it as less density SFX and more of a minor control over gravity as I want him to be able to repel as well.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: gravitic well

 

Good points. I'm thinking I should redefine it as less density SFX and more of a minor control over gravity as I want him to be able to repel as well.

 

Other possible limitations, in that case, could be 'only to push/pull' and 'does no damage', since it sounds like he can't crush the objects with the grav-field.

 

On an unrelated note, I would be more tempted to buy this as an Explosion, as it seems logical that the attractive/repulsive force would be weaker the further away from the source it is ... but that's an RL physics thing.

[Scifi_Toughguy]

Re: gravitic well

 

Hmm, all good points. I believe I shall ammend the entry. Not sure how to value the collie's suggested limitations.

 

Telekinesis: STR 40 Explosion (-1DC/2") +3/4, Personal immunity +1/4 120 AP; Affects whole object -1/4, No Range -1/2, only to push/pull -1/4, Does no damage -1/2 (real cost 48)

[Doc Democracy]

Re: gravitic well

 

I was always slightly against the use of TK for modelling gravity. Having read a few other threads on the use of TK and seen official answers, it is not a good power to model gravity with.

 

An area effect TK will only affect the total weight that the TK could lift. So 40STR TK lifts about 6 tonnes. Using TK it actually gets less effective the more things that are in the gravity well.

 

That might not be an issue - after all it is the equivalent of 64 agents (and I presume despite not being able to move the 65th agent in the area that they all have to fight against a 40STR to get free).

 

Just thought I'd point this out....

 

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: gravitic well

 

That is a good utilitarian build, although, for gravity sfx I tend to favour UAA flight for the simple reason that the mass/strength of the target should not matter much - they are going to move as if you'd dropped them off a building. Also a 40 STR TK can only affect 6400kg, not 6400 kg per target. Whilst UAA suffers a similar problem (you have to buy up the mass/nunber of targets you can affect - probably - it bears consideration.

[Scifi_Toughguy]

Re: gravitic well

 

My initial read on the power was a supress against movement. The problem is, I didn't think you can slap a supress on that category.

[Beast]

Re: gravitic well

 

since tk is a constant power

you could make it a damage shield

also you could have it only do damage if the target is against you

of course you are going to make a great vaccum cleaner

[Sean Waters]

Re: gravitic well

 

My initial read on the power was a supress against movement. The problem is' date=' I didn't think you can slap a supress on that category.[/quote']

 

Oh I'm sure you can:)

 

Running, Flight (which, to me, includes swinging and gliding as a subset), Swimming and the actual movement part of tunelling (but not the tearing through walls bit) is a well enough defined group. Wouldn't affect most manifestations of EDM or teleport, but I'd certainly allow it.

 

One interesting approach is to simply supress strength - on the basis you need it to combat increased gravity. Bit too disconnected for my tastes, but it might work...

[Scifi_Toughguy]

Re: gravitic well

 

Beast: I'm really not looking to damage anyone with it, its mainly to affect movement.

 

Mr. Waters: If I model it as a supress against movement powers, then there is no push/pull. I'm not sure but that aspect of it (the push and pull) seems like something I want in there.

[Tonio]

Re: gravitic well

 

Actually, the fact that TK doesn't work as well against more massive objects doesn't have to be a problem. More massive objects are also affected more by local gravity, which usually makes them tougher to move. Also, while it's not accurate, it can "feel" right to have more massive objects move slower because of inertia. So while TK won't accurately model real-world gravity, it can be a decent model for comic-book gravity.

[Vulcan]

Re: gravitic well

 

Hmm, all good points. I believe I shall ammend the entry. Not sure how to value the collie's suggested limitations.

 

Telekinesis: STR 40 Explosion (-1DC/2") +3/4, Personal immunity +1/4 120 AP; Affects whole object -1/4, No Range -1/2, only to push/pull -1/4, Does no damage -1/2 (real cost 48)

 

If it's always centered on the character, don't forget 'No Range (-1/2).

[Scifi_Toughguy]

Re: gravitic well

 

That be the second one there once you hit the limitations.

[Maur]

Re: gravitic well

 

That is a good utilitarian build' date=' although, for gravity sfx I tend to favour UAA flight for the simple reason that the mass/strength of the target should not matter much - they are going to move as if you'd dropped them off a building. Also a 40 STR TK can only affect 6400kg, not 6400 kg per target. Whilst UAA suffers a similar problem (you have to buy up the mass/nunber of targets you can affect - probably - it bears consideration.[/quote']

 

Well, if the object is in the air then you really only have to overcome air resistance to move it via gravity. If it's on the ground, then you have to overcome all that mass' friction from contact with the ground. So, in general it will take a larger force to move a more massive object.

[Vulcan]

Re: gravitic well

 

Whoops! Missed that.

[Scifi_Toughguy]

Re: gravitic well

 

Its all good. Thanks for watching out for me.

[Sean Waters]

Re: gravitic well

 

Well' date=' if the object is in the air then you really only have to overcome air resistance to move it via gravity. If it's on the ground, then you have to overcome all that mass' friction from contact with the ground. So, in general it will take a larger force to move a more massive object.[/quote']

 

Well we might have to wait for a unified theory, but gravity does not seem to work the same way as other forces. Gravity does not, for instance, seem to use energy, nor to decay. If something is in a gravity field then friction is certainly a major factor, but gravity acts (if I recall physics at all) with a bigger force on a more massive object, which is why small and large objects fall at the same rate. not sure that is true of, eg, electromagnetic force.

[Maur]

Re: gravitic well

 

Well we might have to wait for a unified theory' date=' but gravity does not seem to work the same way as other forces. Gravity does not, for instance, seem to use energy, nor to decay. If something is in a gravity field then friction is certainly a major factor, but gravity acts (if I recall physics at all) with a bigger force on a more massive object, which is why small and large objects fall at the same rate. not sure that is true of, eg, electromagnetic force.[/quote']

 

Gravity decays with distance as it is inversely proportional to r^2. All objects get the same pull (imparted acceleration) provided they are in a vacuum. This is why a feather and a quarter don't fall at the same rate. The feather has more air resistance than the quarter, but the Earth is pulling on them both just the same.

 

Force due to gravity = G*m1*m2/r^2 = m1*Gc (assuming r is sufficiently small to make gravity seem to be constant)

 

G = Gravitational constant

m1 = mass of object 1

m2 = mass of object 2

r = distance separating objects

Gc = acceleration imparted on object 1 by gravity force of character c

 

Force of friction (static) = u*N = u*m1*g

 

u = static coefficient of friction

N = Force normal

m1 = mass of object 1

g = acceleration of gravity at Earth's surface (9.8m/s^2)

 

So, the force of gravity created by a superhero must overcome the force of friction to get an object into motion. Which means that:

 

m1*Gc > u*m1*g

Gc > u*g

 

to make the object move. If u = .2, then your acceleration constant needs to be 2m/s^2 or greater to make something move. This is why you walking by a car doesn't cause you to fall into the car (or it to come after you).

[Sean Waters]

Re: gravitic well

 

Gravity decays with distance as it is inversely proportional to r^2. All objects get the same pull (imparted acceleration) provided they are in a vacuum. This is why a feather and a quarter don't fall at the same rate. The feather has more air resistance than the quarter, but the Earth is pulling on them both just the same.

 

Force due to gravity = G*m1*m2/r^2 = m1*Gc (assuming r is sufficiently small to make gravity seem to be constant)

 

G = Gravitational constant

m1 = mass of object 1

m2 = mass of object 2

r = distance separating objects

Gc = acceleration imparted on object 1 by gravity force of character c

 

Force of friction (static) = u*N = u*m1*g

 

u = static coefficient of friction

N = Force normal

m1 = mass of object 1

g = acceleration of gravity at Earth's surface (9.8m/s^2)

 

So, the force of gravity created by a superhero must overcome the force of friction to get an object into motion. Which means that:

 

m1*Gc > u*m1*g

Gc > u*g

 

to make the object move. If u = .2, then your acceleration constant needs to be 2m/s^2 or greater to make something move. This is why you walking by a car doesn't cause you to fall into the car (or it to come after you).

 

Well when I said 'decay' I was meaning it doesn't go away over time. I'm not sure that we normally talk about decaying with distance, although you are quite right, it does.

 

It's years since I've done any of this stuff, but even now I'd assume that if you had a mass great enough to have its own appreciable gravity - enough to pull stuff to it so as you'd notice - sitting on the top of the Earth then the effect would be, in effect, to shift the centre of mass of the planet.

 

I'm not sure that anything dense enough to actually have such a noticeable gravitational force, and be the size of a character in Hero, could comfortably exist near a planet or, indeed, at all, and, if it did, the gravitational force would be tailing off a lot slower than a normal explosion radius. Of course with something that dense, you can get a lot closer to the centre of mass so you can probably get some pretty intense gravitational effects. Maybe even tidal ones: there would be significantly different gravitational forces on each side of a target's body due to the thickness of it, which would almost certainly prove fatal to most people as it would seriously impede blood flow.

 

We can safely assume, therefore, that we are not applying the laws of gravity as we know them. That being the case we needn't bother trying to be realistic, but, hey, it's a foible... we can at least strive for rubber realism.

 

Now we are hindered in our endeavours by not having an actual mechanic for gravity in Hero. We know the effect, but we don't know how that is built.

 

Sucker, as we shall call High Gravity Lad, should have an interesting effect if above a target: the normal force of gravity is going to be partially or fully cancelled, or maybe even locally reversed, but of course neither of the effects suggested really do that.

 

I, and this is my only point, prefer UAA flight: with the right power modifiers it can be made to behave quite like gravity cancelling or reversal. I think it is much more difficult to get close with TK. It might be a more accurate representation, in an unmodified form, for a lateral pull to evercome friction, but in almost every other circumstance it is inferior, and UAA flight can be modified to work there too. For instance, if you use a gravity power to make someone float or rise into the air, it makes no sense to me that they should be able to stop that by applying strength, at least once they are beyond the reach of any handy levers or anchors.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: gravitic well

 

Star Hero defines 1G as being equivalent to 5 STR Telekinesis. I'd go with that, myself, and handwave the rest.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: gravitic well

 

Star Hero defines 1G as being equivalent to 5 STR Telekinesis. I'd go with that' date=' myself, and handwave the rest.[/quote']

 

This is the difference between science and comics. 5 STR TK would not cut it without handwaving.

 

Now 5 STR TK acting on a freely falling body might produce the necessary acceleration but it would not move enought stuff to work under TK rules and it wouldn't do much in a superhero game that I probably wouldn't give the dense character as a free power stunt using mega density increase.

 

This might be the best way forward. Agree with the player that he asserts his own gravity field and that objects of x kilos or less will be drawn towards him. It has downsides as well as good ones - imagine trying to have a good time on the beach when the sand continually flows over him...

 

A zero point colour aspect to the character.

 

Doc

[GoldenAge]

Re: gravitic well

 

I have a similar character called Black Hole. He has the ability to become something akin to an actual black hole. He must concentrate to create a gravity well centered on himself. He also can control the gravity to the extent that he can concentrate it on specific individuals... thus tugging but not moving innocents while pulling the baddies toward himself (cuts down on collateral damage - the character would otherwise be useless anywhere other than a corn field ). Once the bad guys reach him they encounter the complete effects of Black Hole's gravity well and are literally pummeled by gravity (Damage Shield). He can also blast out arcs of energy within his gravity well = Energy Blast.

 

I put together an Elemental Control in an attempt to depict the power set. I'm not sure if its working. Any thoughts would be welcome!!!

 

 

Black Hole EC

 

1) 70 STR TK: AE Radius x2 = 14” (+1 1/4); Selective (+1/4); Pull toward body only (-1), No Range (-1/2), Reduced by Range (-1/4), Concentrate throughout = 0 DCV (-1)

 

2) Force Field: (30 rPD, 30 rED); Hardened (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2); Activation 8- (-2)

 

3) Damage Shield: 12d6 EB; Continuous (+1); Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2); Concentrate to turn on - 0 DCV (-1/2), Activation 14- (-1/2)

 

4) Energy Blast: 14d6 AE Radius (+1); Selective (+1/4); No Range (-1/2), Reduced by Range (-1/4) -- Range = 7” Sphere from BH

 

Additional Powers -

 

3d6 Flash: Normal Sight Group; AE Radius (+1); Selective (+1/4); No Range (-1/2), Reduced by Range (-1/4), Linked to EB (-1/2)

 

Change Environment: Photo-Negative sight and high winds blowing inward toward Black Hole - within range of Telekinesis and Energy Blast; Linked to TK (-1/2), No Range (-1/2), No Conscious Control (-1)

[Utech]

Re: gravitic well

 

Here's a shot out of left field...

 

Try Change Environment with Explosion and No Range. Work with the GM to establish a Mass Roll (similar to a Characteristic-based Roll).

 

GM rules that anyone moving into the "gravity well" has to

1. make a Mass Roll at -??? or
   
2. apply at least ??? inches of a movement power away from the mutant hero.
   

Anyone who fails to meet these conditions begins to "slide" toward the mutant hero. If they strike the hero (or anything else) it is as though they are performing a 0 STR Move Through.

 

Establishing the Mass Roll is a real trick, I understand. Consider basing it on the Strength Table. Something along these lines:

6.4 KG = 3-

8 KG = 4-

12.5 KG = 5-

16 KG = 6-

25 KG = 7-

37 KG = 8-

50 KG = 9-

75 KG = 10-

100 KG = 11-

150 KG = 12-

200 KG = 13-

300 KG = 14-

400 KG = 15-

600 KG = 16-

800 KG = 17-

1200 KG = 18-

1600 KG = 19-

etc.

 

Naturally, you can buy your Change Environment to slap a penalty on the Mass Roll. Your GM can (and should) add additional bonuses or penalties if the object in question is, say...

 

• on a sheet of ice
  
• bolted down
  
• hovering
  
• on rollers facing the right way
  
• on rollers facing the wrong way
  

etc.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: gravitic well

 

This is the difference between science and comics. 5 STR TK would not cut it without handwaving.

 

Right, but when I first got into the HERO System, it was a game about comic book superheroes. Over time it's turned into a game of cinematic action.

 

It's never been, to my knowledge, been a science roleplaying game.