Sell my friends on DCV

[Comic]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

So, how are we doing so far?

 

What do your friends think?

[nexus]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

Along that same line of reasoning you could also say all guns have AOE 1 Hex Accurate (instead of +5 OCV) as a way to make them undodgeable. In this way everyone has a base 3 DCV vs. guns no matter what their DEX is. Dive For Cover still works though.

 

Actually (and this slipped my mind too) you can Dodge (and apply DCV level, IIRC) against 1 Hex accurate. It just increases the DCV of the "hex" instead of your own which could model moving erratically, trying to present a smaller target profile, etc, pretty well.

[braincraft]

Re: We'll call this Plan B

 

Make it a Nerf gun' date=' or (if you're outside) a paintball gun. They'll still get the point! [/quote']

 

Nerf guns don't really have a lot of muzzle velocity. I can catch a nerf dart with my hand, but that doesn't prove anything about firearms.

[Vulcan]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

Yeah, but the average gamer doesn't have a very high DCV either...

[Shoutybloke]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

 

ballerina man being a potent combatent due to his gracefull dancing (covered in part by above average dex) giving him both higher OCV and dcv.

 

One of the toughest men I ever new was a ballet dancer (Ballerina is a feminine term IIRC)...

 

anyway, you can build a ballet dancer with dex 10 (average is 8 remember) and just a high ps dancer. also, even if he has dex 18, it's not dgoing to help much if he has str 10, no martial ats andno weapons familiarities, maxing his attacks at 2 dcs barehanded or at ocv 3 with a weapon...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

Nexus, I tried to sell your friends on DCV but no one was buying so I sold them on eBay instead.

 

Hope that's OK.

[nexus]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

Nexus, I tried to sell your friends on DCV but no one was buying so I sold them on eBay instead.

 

Hope that's OK.

 

:eek:

 

I'm not the OP!

 

What have you done!?

 

...

 

and how much did you get?

[Trebuchet]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

Actually (and this slipped my mind too) you can Dodge (and apply DCV level' date=' IIRC) against 1 Hex accurate. It just increases the DCV of the "hex" instead of your own which could model moving erratically, trying to present a smaller target profile, etc, pretty well.[/quote']I didn't know that. Where is that covered in 5ER?

[nexus]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

I didn't know that. Where is that covered in 5ER?

 

Pg 248 right hand column upper corner under the description of Accurate. I completely forgot about it. The character can only apply defensive levels if they Dodge or take another defensive option and, on the GM's option, Accurate attacks can target hit locations.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

Mechanically DCV sets the difficulty factor for targeting --> it's harder to hit some targets than others. Things that are harder to hit have a higher DCV. That's it and that's all.

 

How you choose to conceptualize and explain away where a particular "point" of DCV originates from varies by situation, circumstance, ability, and dramatic flavor -- and that's a good thing.

 

 

It CAN be described as "dodging bullets". It CAN be described as "he's good at ducking". It CAN be described as a "probability alteration field". It CAN be described as "he' doing the funky chicken". It CAN be described as a "mental projection that makes people subconsciously miss". It CAN be described as "he's very agile and nimble". And so on. In the case of a particular person, it can be any combination of such things. The end result is simply that its statistically less likely that an attacker will hit them.

 

As most things in the HERO System, there is a separation between the MECHANIC and the EFFECT.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

Pg 248 right hand column upper corner under the description of Accurate. I completely forgot about it. The character can only apply defensive levels if they Dodge or take another defensive option and' date=' on the GM's option, Accurate attacks can target hit locations.[/quote']Much obliged. That'll come in handy someday.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

It CAN be described as "he' doing the funky chicken".

 

This, this right here - this is the SFX for the next DCV Skill Level I purchase.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

This' date=' this right here - this is the SFX for the next DCV Skill Level I purchase.[/quote']

 

I look forward to you posting that character.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

i would be more concerned with the realism of making ballerinas into snipers than i would whether or not dodging occurs before or after the bullet leaves the gun.

 

It's a little-known fact that Ballerinas make the best assassins. Nobody takes them seriously until they pull that rifle out of their tutu!

 

but the simplest nod to guns are faster would be to disallow the dodge maneuver as an abort action against attacks you feel are too fast to be dodged.

 

So you would be able to, on your phase, declare dodgning in general and be harder to shoot but NOT to be able to let someone start to shoot you and then declare dodge.

 

that might give them the "difference between guns and punches" flavor they want.

 

A perfectly reasonable approach for heroic games. Supers are (usually, but not always) better than that.

 

...but you do have to wonder if it is some much harder to hit a dancing graceful fluid ballerina at dcv 6 than it is to hit the normal at dcv 3.

 

heck, sometimes a stumbling unpredictable movement is harder to hit.

 

You're confusing special effects (how it looks like it happens) and game mechanics (how it's resolves irrespective of the SFX). I can make a very high-dex, combat-effective character and proclaim he's really clumsy, but lucky. If he hits the badguy, it's because he was aiming at someone else. If the badguy missed, it's because he tripped right when the BG fired. The game mechanics just show he has a high dex and maybe some skills, the SFX only define what6 it looks like when the guy actually does what he does.

 

If you really don't want characters to be excellent in combat just because they have a high dex, then I suggest that "familiar with unarmed combat" be required to use your full dex to calculate OCV. Otherwise, you get half OCV or some such. I wouldn't penalize DCV because people instinctively do what they can to avoid danger when they're aware of it. Unfortunately, they're frequently surprised and have a DEX less than 10, so it doesn't help them much anyway. The PCs are better than that, so they should have "familiarity with combat" for free or have it required unless their character concept demands that everybody else in the party cover the poor schnook whenever a fight of any sort breaks out.

 

But to adress the OP directly, the characters aren't dodging bullets. They're just moving so as to throw off the aim of the person shooting at. I have used firearms before and can attest that it is difficult to hit a stationary, man-sized object without taking care to aim properly. It's relatively easy to hit a stationary target at close range, but if that target is junking around, bobbing and weaving and especially if he's shooting back, the shooter will be so pumped full of adrenalin that his aim will be only a charicature of accuracy. It's amazing how many bullets get expended by police and badguys when things go bad, without effect. No matter how good you are at the range, calmly shooting holews in paper, your ability to put holes in things deteriorates when you're pumped full of adrenalin, trying to stay behind cover, and overcoming your natural reluctance to be shot at so you can come out from behind cover long enough to get a clear shot.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

:eek:

 

I'm not the OP!

 

What have you done!?

 

...

 

and how much did you get?

 

Doh!

 

I can't tell you how much I got, but I can tell you they were bought buy someone called Katherine. Maybe her new friends can sell her old friends on DCV

[Vulcan]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

One of the toughest men I ever new was a ballet dancer (Ballerina is a feminine term IIRC)...

 

anyway, you can build a ballet dancer with dex 10 (average is 8 remember) and just a high ps dancer. also, even if he has dex 18, it's not dgoing to help much if he has str 10, no martial ats andno weapons familiarities, maxing his attacks at 2 dcs barehanded or at ocv 3 with a weapon...

 

Yeah, I've been in my share of street fights, but I wouldn't mess with a ballet dancer trivially....

 

I mean, think about it. They lift toss those girls around like they're nothing. Okay, the girls aren't exactly heavy, but even 80-100 lbs isn't exactly neglibile either. Only that's exactly the way they handle the girls in ballet!

 

Let's say the average ballerina weighs 100 lbs (45ish kg). That requires a 4 STR to lift, and a 7 STR to throw 6'. Add a point for allowing the ballerina to land properly and gracefully, so we're up to 8 STR.

 

Now remember that's probably his casual STR. So that ballet dancer has something like a 14-16 STR in HEROS terms...

 

Add the flexibility and agility and general stamina... I don't know, man. If he's had any combat training, he's going to be a real hard fight!

 

(Maybe not against a combat-ready HEROS character, but for a normal he might be pretty bad-ass!)

[Vulcan]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

It's amazing how many bullets get expended by police and badguys when things go bad' date=' without effect. No matter how good you are at the range, calmly shooting holews in paper, your ability to put holes in things deteriorates when you're pumped full of adrenalin, trying to stay behind cover, and overcoming your natural reluctance to be shot at so you can come out from behind cover long enough to get a clear shot.[/quote']

 

Take Ron White's example of how a cop fired seventeen rounds at a Suburban at point-blank range... and missed with ALL of them!

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

several existing mechanics can be used to to model the apparent inaccuracies of handguns.

 

target practice sometimes uses Set and Brace.

target practice is seldom vs. moving targets.

especially ones that can shoot back (and make PRE Attacks).

 

The character that can get a 6" grouping at 50' with 15 rounds from his 9mm pistol in the range might still miss a complete normal at 10' 25-50% of the time.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

They don't think it makes sense especially when it dealing with things like guns and other high speed attacks, that it's silly for normal humans to be able to dodge bullets. That should be a super power in their opinion.

 

Ever played a first person shooter that had sniper rifles?

 

N00bs get head shotted all the time. l33ts, not so much.

 

The attack is pretty much instantaneous, all characters move at the same speed, they're all the same color and the same size.

 

The difference is that the l33t players don't move in straight lines and not in the open, don't silhouette themselves, yadda yadda yadda.

 

That's DCV.

[Rapier]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

It CAN be described as "dodging bullets". It CAN be described as "he's good at ducking". It CAN be described as a "probability alteration field". It CAN be described as "he' doing the funky chicken". It CAN be described as a "mental projection that makes people subconsciously miss". It CAN be described as "he's very agile and nimble". And so on. In the case of a particular person' date=' it can be any combination of such things. The end result is simply that its statistically less likely that an attacker will hit them.[/quote']

 

Or it could mean that he is a teeeeeeeny, tiiiiiiiiiny little snippet of rabid weasel fluff.

 

DCV is a measure of the difficulty to hit. It doesn't matter if that difficulty comes from some action of the target (like dodging, or a probability altering field) or his size or his distance from the attacker.

 

In fact, I could very easily be convinced that DCV has nothing to do with actually hitting the target as it is dealing with the difficulty of aiming at something. But that is semantics...don't they make an AntiVirus?

[nexus]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

Another way to look at DCV is that it means that your character is, by whatever means, sfx and abilities they have available, is making them selves as difficult to hurt or at least incapacitate as they can in their current situation. It assumes your character is competent and intelligent (or at least battle savvy) by default which suits a heroic and cinematic game

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

Another way to look at DCV is that it means that your character is' date=' by whatever means, sfx and abilities they have available, is making them selves as difficult to hurt or at least incapacitate as they can in their current situation. It assumes your character is competent and intelligent (or at least battle savvy) by default which suits a heroic and cinematic game[/quote']

 

IOW they are doint their best to be a "difficult target".

[Utech]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

IOW they are doint their best to be a "difficult target".

Which, for some character sfx, can mean that they just stand there, take blows, and ignore them.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

Which' date=' for some character sfx, can mean that they just stand there, take blows, and ignore them.[/quote']

 

I dunno, SFX can only go so far IMO. For a power like that I'd either use Armor, or perhaps Missile Deflection. Maybe a type of Desolidification.

 

I don't think that "I'm tough and your blows *do* hit me but don't phase me" isn't a good SFX for a high DEX/high DCV -- after all, why would sticking you in place with an Entangle that prevents you from moving make you less able to "take blows and ignore them"? Especially if the SFX is supposed to be "I just stand there and take it"?

[Utech]

Re: Sell my friends on DCV

 

I don't think that "I'm tough and your blows *do* hit me but don't phase me" isn't a good SFX for a high DEX/high DCV -- after all' date=' why would sticking you in place with an Entangle that prevents you from moving make you [i']less[/i] able to "take blows and ignore them"? Especially if the SFX is supposed to be "I just stand there and take it"?

 

So expand the sfx just a bit. Explain that the high DCV represents free use of your shield to take the blow and ignore it. Or that you are using your magic to nullify incoming attacks. Or that you need to be able to freely move your hands to bring your cool bracers into play.

 

Such a character, once Entangled, would be less able to take blows and ignore them.