Underpowered tropes?

[Vulcan]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

Except that most battlecruiers were nearly as well armored as battleships (the English Furious, Glorious, and Courageous notwithstanding).

 

It's was like the difference between a 25 and 30 PD. Sure, the 30 is higher, but it's not that much higher.

 

Now the three BC's mentioned above actually were egshells with capitol ship guns. 3" armor belt (vs most capitol ships 18-24" armor belt) is more like a light criuser, not a capitol ship. And then they didn't gain enough speed and maneuverability to make up for it... No wonder later BC's went back up to full thickness armor belts.

[Narratio]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

Another underpowered trope COULD be the Aquaman approach.

 

Looking at the classic JLA comics, in 90% of the written adventures he was an amazingly ineffectual individual. Mostly because the writers couldn't figure out a way to have the action near the Sea or a river or something. And then didn't consider how strong he would be or how his telepathy could be used. Of course that changed in the Detroit years and later, but still...

 

In a Champions game enough points are diverted into the watery stuff that they tend to come up short in everything else. Hmmmm, I've never seen an Aquaman clone dump points into detective/interogation type abilities, maybe fish don't commit smart or organized crimes... Something to think on.

[Tandem Esk]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

Shapechangers come in three kinds:

 

1) Those with Ult. Mmorph "Simple Shapeshift"

2) Those who take Sshift against all the sense Groups and every "unusual" sense they can think of, and get the GM to promise not to throw "Detect (some BS or other)", and have no points left to be effective with

3) Those that buy a few Groups and either

A) Get detected in the first 3 minutes of every scene and are hosed

Aren't really metamorphs, their "Mr. Fantastic" clones.

 

IOW, building someone who TURNS INTO something/someone else leaves your PC with nothing else s/he can do, or means your no good at it. Unless you can talk bribe your GM into using the best part of Ult. Mmorph.

[Vulcan]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

Hmmmm' date=' I've never seen an Aquaman clone dump points into detective/interogation type abilities, maybe fish don't commit smart or organized crimes... Something to think on.[/quote']

 

But they could help one find evidence/bodies dumped off the docks...

[Vulcan]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

Shapechangers come in three kinds:

 

1) Those with Ult. Mmorph "Simple Shapeshift"

2) Those who take Sshift against all the sense Groups and every "unusual" sense they can think of, and get the GM to promise not to throw "Detect (some BS or other)", and have no points left to be effective with

3) Those that buy a few Groups and either

A) Get detected in the first 3 minutes of every scene and are hosed

Aren't really metamorphs, their "Mr. Fantastic" clones.

 

IOW, building someone who TURNS INTO something/someone else leaves your PC with nothing else s/he can do, or means your no good at it. Unless you can talk bribe your GM into using the best part of Ult. Mmorph.

 

Intriguingly, our group uses Shapeshift vs. Sight & Touch + Mimicry skill to great effect. Of course, the GM doesn't spontaniously change NPC's just to mess up the Shapeshifter either...

 

Maybe your GM just hates shapeshifters.

[Kenn]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

Also from players that expect to play mentalists like energy blasters and have the same immediate impact. Mentalists take some tactics and patience to run well.

 

In my experience, every archetype except the Brick, takes tactics and patience to run well. Which is the main reason why, IMO, Bricks are often considered to be overpowered.

 

The brick can just stand there and slug away. He's built to take damage, so he doesn't worry about getting hit. Of course, if she's clever, she can be even more effective, but the brick is the one archetype that can be effective without having to think much about it.

 

Now, an Energy Projector or a Martial Artist, if their defenses are high enough, they can become quasi-bricks. But Martial Artists are primarily "glass cannon" types whose main defense is not getting hit. And avoiding getting hit, short of just buying scads of DCV levels, is something that takes being clever. This is also generally true of Energy Projectors who are certainly more effective if they can fight from further away, so they need to know how to use range, again to avoid getting hit.

 

Mentalists, Speedsters, and Metamorphs have already been discussed.

 

Any trope that requires more brains than the player is willing to actually use is going to seem underpowered.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

Another underpowered trope COULD be the Aquaman approach.

Aquaman, underpowered?? Dude, he could talk to fish.

 

Let me say that again: he could talk to fish.

 

Superman can't talk to fish. Batman can't even talk to fish. Green Lantern...well, he probably could since the ring translates anything in the universe...but the Flash can't talk to fish!

 

 

 

 

Underpowered. Hmmph.

[nexus]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

In my experience, every archetype except the Brick, takes tactics and patience to run well.

 

"Hit it until it stop moving either at range or up close" pretty much works for most archetypes in my experience. It takes a degree of subtly to use mental powers (with the exception of Ego Attack) well in combat. At least that's been my experience. And why Mentalists are considered "underpowered' because they can't stand there and blindly slug it out or otherwise just brute force their way their combat. It takes more thought and planning, IMO and patience too. Mental powers are generally all or nothing not cumulative like damage inflicting powers and sometimes telepathic "scouting" to find out psych lims, weaknesses or just waiting for the right moment to nudge things with mental illusions or mind control is required while everyone else is blasting or slugging away. Sometimes everyone is down before that chance comes which also gives the impression the mentalist is underpowered.

 

YMMV.

 

 

Which is the main reason why, IMO, Bricks are often considered to be overpowered.

 

That's never been one I've run across very much aside from online. Bricks have been considered an efficient archetype with the bennies they get from high physical characteristics but in play I haven't seen them as particularly overpowered. Of course, that's just personal experience and many people think otherwise.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

In my experience with the HERO System Mimics and Metamorphs are the most underpowered as a group. Metamorphs includes growers / shrinkers and any character that has to significantly alter their physical state to access / use their powers.

 

Also IME, Speedsters and Martial Artists definitely _are not_ underpowered as a group. They do take more management to use successfully, but are frighteningly effective when used efficiently.

 

 

Mentalists tend to either dominate or be totally ineffective depending on circumstances, the prevalence of higher than average EGO, MD, and particular power builds. They have the most potential to ruin a game, and also require the GM to provide villains of a different sort than is typical for non-mentalists. You get the Magneto's Helmet syndrome -- for a character to be effective vs a group with a mentalist, they have to have a way to resist the mentalist or else it makes no difference how powerful they are.

[Peregrine]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

I actually think Bricks and Energy Projectors tend to be of a kind, with the former generally melee combatants and the latter generally ranged combatants. Both tend to do campaign high-to-max damage and have campaign high-to-max defenses. Stereotypically, both tend to have movement powers as well; Flight for EPs (occasionally Teleport) and Leaping or Flight for Bricks.

 

Martial Artists differ from Bricks primarily in their defenses - "don't get hit" as opposed to the Brick's "take the hit". Both, however, are generally melee combatants who do campaign high-to-max damage. (In the comics, the original Legion of Superheroes' Karate Kid actually pulled a Brick Trick or two in his time; I particularly remember him doing a ground shockwave by kicking the ground.)

 

Granted, exceptions to the above are not only possible, but abounding in examples.

 

As to underpowered... I'd have to go with Metamorphs, at standard starting points (350). Given the base cost of metamorphic abilities, a metamorph at that point level would be very limited in the scope of their abilities, tending toward a one-trick pony.

[Utech]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

I haven't found any tropes to be underpowered. Different, yes. Underpowered, no.

 

Supers should not be interchangeable. Each calls for different opponents and different challenges.

[Kenn]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

"Hit it until it stop moving either at range or up close" pretty much works for most archetypes in my experience.

...

YMMV

 

My group found they needed to add "...while not getting creamed at the same time."

 

Like the player whose martial artist ALWAYS went with the offensive strike. S/he'd kick and kick and kick and wear her opponent down, but sooner or later the opponent would receive a lucky die roll and connect. And the PC martial artist would stop moving. S/he never delivered the coup de gras, but she always helped take them down.

[Vulcan]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

I usually go with defensive strike or martial throw. Offensive strike was the coup de gras.

 

A martial artist has to be played very tactically to be competetive. Either that, or have lots of defenses - and even then it helps to play tactically. That's why martial artist tend to have the scond highest SPD on the team - right behind the speedster. They need the extra actions to dodge/block and still have attacks. It's not that they are 'superhumanly fast' like a speedster, just exquisitely trained to be able to dodge/block and counterstrike.

[Revenant]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

I'll add to the size changers being underpowered. If you're tiny, the GM starts adding AoE attacks to the bad guys so they can hit you; if you're big good luck finding a situation that'll let you grow to twenty plus feet tall without destroying the building you're in by doing so.

[Heroic Halfwit]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

Mentalists...perceived by players/comicbook readers as underpowered if they're anything less than Professor X-level. And since the HERO system makes mental powers appallingly expensive, it's very rare to have a powerful PC Mentalist in a game. The big Mentalists are almost always NPCs, and the PC Mentalists almost always underpowered.

 

Mentalists...perceived by the writers of HERO Games as terribly over-powered and automatic game-unbalancers. So in the interests of "game balance," the individual elements of mental powers -- cost per die, limitations, advantages, effect -- are artificially set to price the Mentalist PC out of consideration.

 

If you want a challenge, try building a PC Mentalist that ISN'T underpowered -- on standard starting points.

 

Okay. Try this one. If the GM allows mentalists to "combine attacks" this character should be an offensive nightmare, with plenty of stuff ruin a GM's day. It's just something I threw together so forgive the lack of full development.

 

[b]John "Jack" Harris - Iron Will[/b]
[b][u]VAL[/u]   [u]CHA[/u]   [u]Cost[/u]   [u]Total[/u]   [u]Roll[/u]      [u]Notes[/u][/b]
10    STR     0   10      11-       HTH Damage 2d6  END [1]
10    DEX     0   10      11-       OCV 3 DCV 3
33    CON     32   33      16-
15    BODY    20   15      12-
15    INT     5   15      12-       PER Roll 12-
25    EGO     30   25      14-       ECV: 8
10    PRE     0   10      11-       PRE Attack: 2d6
10    COM     0   10      11-
2    PD      0   2/17             2/17 PD (0/15 rPD)
4    ED      0   4/18             4/18 ED (0/14 rED)
4    SPD     20   4                 Phases:  3, 6, 9, 12
6    REC     0   6
36    END     0   36
50    STUN    1   50
6    RUN      0   6"                END [1]
2    SWIM     0   2"                END [1]
2    LEAP     0   2"                2" forward, 1" upward
[b]CHA Cost: 108[/b]
[b][u]Cost[/u]   [u]POWERS[/u][/b]
25     [b][i]Dominant Will[/i][/b]: Elemental Control, 50-point powers - END=
14     1)  [b][i]Dominant Mind[/i][/b]: Mind Scan 8d6, +7 ECV (54 Active Points); Concentration (0 DCV; Character is totally unaware of nearby events; -3/4), Stops Working If Mentalist Is Knocked Out (-1/4) - END=5
26     2)  [b][i]Iron Will[/i][/b]: Force Field (15 PD/14 ED), Hardened (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (51 Active Points) - END=0
14     3)  [b][i]Mind over Body[/i][/b]: (Total: 50 Active Cost, 28 Real Cost) +15 CON (30 Active Points); Costs Endurance (-1/2), No Figured Characteristics (-1/2) (Real Cost: 15) [b]plus[/b] +20 STUN (20 Active Points); Costs Endurance (-1/2) (Real Cost: 13) - END=5
14     4)  [b][i]Strength of Will[/i][/b]: Healing BODY 5d6 (50 Active Points); Self Only (-1/2), Extra Time (Delayed Phase, -1/4) - END=5
13     Endurance Reserve  (100 END, 5 REC) Reserve:  (15 Active Points); REC:  (5 Active Points); Personal REC (-1/2) - END=0
17     [b][i]Divided Consciousness[/i][/b]: Duplication (creates 4 350-point Duplicates), Cannot Recombine (+0) (80 Active Points); Feedback (All Duplicates Take Damage When Struck; -1), Concentration (0 DCV; Character is totally unaware of nearby events; -3/4), Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (One Body; -1/2), Gestures (Requires both hands; -1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4), Incantations (-1/4) - END=8
81     Multipower, 81-point reserve - END=
7u     1)  Telepathy 14d6 (70 Active Points) - END=7
7u     2)  Mental Illusions 14d6 (70 Active Points) - END=7
8u     3)  Mind Control 13d6, Telepathic (+1/4) (81 Active Points) - END=8
7u     4)  Ego Attack 7d6 (70 Active Points) - END=7
[b]POWERS Cost: 233[/b]

[b][u]Cost[/u]   [u]SKILLS[/u][/b]
     Champions Everyman Skills
0      1)  Acting 8-
0      2)  Climbing 8-
0      3)  Concealment 8-
0      4)  Conversation 8-
3      5)  Deduction 12-
0      6)  AK: New York City (Everyman Skill) 11-
0      7)  KS: Player's Choice 8-
0      8)  Language:  English (idiomatic) (4 Active Points)
0      9)  Paramedics 8-
3      10) Persuasion 11-
0      11) PS: Psychologist (Everyman Skill) 11-
0      12) Shadowing 8-
0      13) Stealth 8-
0      14) TF:  Common Motorized Ground Vehicles, Everyman Skill
2      15) SS:  Psychology 11-
[b]SKILLS Cost: 8[/b]
[b][u]Cost[/u]   [u]PERKS[/u][/b]
1      Fringe Benefit:  License to practice a profession
[b]PERKS Cost: 1[/b]

[b][u]Value[/u]  [u]DISADVANTAGES[/u][/b]
20     Normal Characteristic Maxima
10     Age:  60+
10     Distinctive Features:  Psychic (Not Concealable; Always Noticed and Causes Major Reaction; Detectable Only By Unusual Senses)
10     Vulnerability:  1 1/2 x Effect Fear based (Common)
15     Social Limitation:  Secret ID (Frequently, Major)
15     Dependent NPC:  Susanne and Chole (wife and daughter) 8- (Normal; Group DNPC: x2 DNPCs)
15     Psychological Limitation:  Paranoia (Very Common, Moderate)
15     Psychological Limitation:  Claustrophobia (Uncommon, Total)
10     Psychological Limitation:  Vengeful (Uncommon, Strong)
10     Social Limitation:  Obligations to clients (Occasionally, Major)
20     Hunted:  US Government 8- (Mo Pow, NCI, Capture)
[b]DISADVANTAGES Points: 150[/b]
Base Pts: 200
Exp Required: 0
Total Exp Available: 0
Exp Unspent: 0
Total Character Cost: 350

 

Background:

Jack Harris did not have an easy life, cursed with both a highly active mind and a horrible living situation. He quickly developed a series of serious psychopathologies, chief among these was his basic paranoia. At an early age, he experienced his first dissociative event, running away in a psychic fugue, adopting the name "Samuel" when he was only 7 years old. The escapade lasted only a few days, but it was followed by longer duration fugues. Eventually, he was placed in a supervised mental institution, where he was subjected to the usual abuse of such wards of the state. Each time, a new personality developed to take the pain. For three years he endured this abuse, until a reporter from the Enquirer doing a followup on a celebrity on a drug induced psychotic spree somehow found himself under the arms of Akram Asylum. Jack, along with the other patients were released, but none claimed him. Perhaps, because one of his alternate personalities had provided the identifying information, or perhaps because his parents free of him these past three years, no longer cared. Whatever the case, Jack soon found himself on the streets, eeking out an existence raiding dumptsers, avoided gangers, pimps, and cops. All of whom seemed, if not always in actuaility, out to get him.

 

He took to spending long hours in the Public Library, a refuge that was both warm, relatively safe, and afforded some surcease from the constant battle for survival on the streets. It was while reading Shakespeare, that he came to the resolution to heal himself, poring over every book available on psychology, parapsychology, spiritualism, mysticism, magic, whatever might possibly provide him some control over his own shattered mind. His efforts were only partially successful. He managed to incorporate many of his alters applying the broad knowledge that he had gained, though some still remained resistant.

 

It was at the Library where he met Dr. Professor Ludwig Inglefeld, a teaching fellow at New York University. Jack had the only copy of Adler's original manuscript on the archetypes, and Professor Inglefeld needed it to complete his work "The collective unconscious and the archetypes: How Batman ditched the walking stick in favor of a utility belt." In the ensuing disputation over who had rights to the book, the Professor asked Jack was lecturing. From this chance meeting, Jack was ultimately enrolled in NYU with the sponsoring of Professor Inglefeld, culminating in a PhD in clincial psychology.

 

Jack's life was much improved. He met Susanne while researching his doctoral thesis, married, and secured his professional license. He has yet to fully integrate all of his alters, but he has managed to keep them secret and come to an accord with these remaining alters. By concentrating his will, he is able to summon them such that they share his conciousness though each is free to act as it sees fit. [etc. etc.]

 

It's not a fully thought out concept, and a bit on the squishy side, but a real offensive juggernaut, particularly if the GM allows the Duplicates to combine attacks to stack for mental effects. Even if that is not allowed, being able to take 5 actions per phase without resorting to Sweep or Rapid Fire can be devastating. 5x 7d6 Ego Blast should knockout anyone without very significant mental defense.

 

I'd probably shift some points around buy a vehicle, wealth or something similiar to help him get around, add "Soc. Lim. Dirty Secret, suffers from Multiple Personality disorder" etc. But I believe that the above construction is both effective, rules as written legal, and effective.

[Ice9]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

In my experience with the HERO System Mimics and Metamorphs are the most underpowered as a group. Metamorphs includes growers / shrinkers and any character that has to significantly alter their physical state to access / use their powers.

Is this including Multiform? Because I've always found Multiform to be a gateway to more power than you could possibly need. Shapechange+VPP is also a pretty solid combination.

 

Speedsters, I agree, are balanced on a thin edge - they often end up either too fragile, or as deadly as the rest combined. And it doesn't help that SPD tends to be an "arms race" kind of stat - once someone bumps theirs, everyone has to follow or be left waiting for their turn a lot.

 

Mentalists - I wouldn't say they're weak in general, but certain powers are, at least in combat. Because of the whole +20 thing, Mind Control seems more suited to "jedi mind tricking" guards than taking over actual foes. Mental Illusions is potential gold though, Mental Awareness beats a lot of tricks, and Ego Attack is useful against high-defense types. Something like telekinesis/pyrokinesis/probability manipulation is essential though, unless you want to spend some fights on the sidelines.

 

Robots, incidentally, and inorganic characters in general, can be somewhat screwed by the necessity of taking expensive Life Support. Sure, you don't have to take it, but it's going to look pretty lame when your android falls over from knockout gas. Especially problematic if your archetype is something that's already points-hungry like Speedster.

 

Of course, Multiform, Duplication, and Summoning can free up enough points to make practically anything valid or even mind-boggling strong (see Iron Will above), as long as your trope doesn't preclude those.

[tesuji]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

I find shapeshifters to be OK but a fairly complex build. A "brute form" (multiform) with a real shapeshifter form for all the various stealth and recon etc seems to work great now that the lesser form can pay the multiform.

 

mentalists have been dependent on two things - the GM and the PLAYER.

 

The GM mau, some have, suddenly up the typical medntal def of the npcs, in which case the mentalist can be screwed. this seems to be the thinking that if they dont have mental def they are all screwed and thinking of it like PD/ED.

 

The PLAYER also has to be subtle. The failing mentalists in my games always used it with brute power - always needing a rgo +20ish result for success. This left the ego roll breakouts fairly simple.

 

The successful mentalists used their enemy flaws against them,selves and typically needed only an EGO roll or an EGO+10 to get what they want and that diff makes for a -2 to -4 diff in the breakout roll. That matters a lot.

 

Sure, its possible to tell the enemy brick to punch his buddy.

 

But maybe getting him to haymaker is easier, and then while he is rearing back, everyone blasts like crazy at his lower dcv with rapid fire attacks etc.

 

getting a greedy bad guy to "while everyone is distracted by the fight, go grab some more loot" isn't a hard sell and it takes him out of the furrball just fine.

 

the successfull mentalists put a little more thought into their "suggestions" and "illusions" and didn't just throw big shots at the bad guys and hope the dice were kind.

[Badger]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

In my experience, every archetype except the Brick, takes tactics and patience to run well. Which is the main reason why, IMO, Bricks are often considered to be overpowered.

 

The brick can just stand there and slug away. He's built to take damage, so he doesn't worry about getting hit. Of course, if she's clever, she can be even more effective, but the brick is the one archetype that can be effective without having to think much about it.

 

Now, an Energy Projector or a Martial Artist, if their defenses are high enough, they can become quasi-bricks. But Martial Artists are primarily "glass cannon" types whose main defense is not getting hit. And avoiding getting hit, short of just buying scads of DCV levels, is something that takes being clever. This is also generally true of Energy Projectors who are certainly more effective if they can fight from further away, so they need to know how to use range, again to avoid getting hit.

 

Mentalists, Speedsters, and Metamorphs have already been discussed.

 

Any trope that requires more brains than the player is willing to actually use is going to seem underpowered.

 

Ha, another for me to hate playing bricks.

 

Tactics, most of the time is my favorite part of the battle. Probably because I seem to be the type of player no matter the game (from rpgs to more conventional sports or board games) that thinks of plans "so damn crazy, it just might work" (even when it doesnt, which failed plans sometimes do seem to come in bunches, at least I had a helluva lot of fun. :thumbup: )

[Badger]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

Aquaman' date=' [i']underpowered?? [/i]Dude, he could talk to fish.

 

Let me say that again: he could talk to fish.

 

Superman can't talk to fish. Batman can't even talk to fish. Green Lantern...well, he probably could since the ring translates anything in the universe...but the Flash can't talk to fish!

 

 

 

 

Underpowered. Hmmph.

 

 

Yes, but I dont care to talk to fish. I just wanna eat them.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

Aquaman' date=' [i']underpowered?? [/i]Dude, he could talk to fish.

 

Let me say that again: he could talk to fish.

 

Superman can't talk to fish. Batman can't even talk to fish. Green Lantern...well, he probably could since the ring translates anything in the universe...but the Flash can't talk to fish!

 

 

 

 

Underpowered. Hmmph.

 

And it must be a highly valued ability.

 

Why else would mobsters be experimenting with so many 'volunteers' trying to find ways to talk to the fishes?