Underpowered tropes?

[Houston GM]

Last week there was a thread about bricks being overpowered (or they were perceived as such by the original poster), and I recently read another thread that talked about speedsters being perceived as underpowered.

 

Are there archetypes or tropes that are generally perceived as being underpowered? I recently made a speedster, and I'd like to take a crack at some of the other tropes that people think are underpowered.

 

Since I intend to personally test claims that "X is underpowered," I'm not all that worried about whether the perceptions are accurate.

[CoreBrute]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

I get the impression from people at my group that people who can change into living animals are underpowered (Think Animorphs or Menagerie). Even going dinosaur may not be seen as powerful.

 

Another power seen as underpowered is the Antman syndrome i.e Shrinking and/or talking to animals.

 

Put them to the test.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

typically, I think Growth-based bricks are a little underpowered, since they wind up with all the Strength, but have to shell out a lot on extra defenses because they are very, very easy to hit.

[Marcus]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

Id say growth bricks are expensive, but potentially terrifying, as their growth often also excuses AOE on STR... of all the tropes, they seem the one most likely to be allowed to violate any sort of game cap on damage classes (inasmuch as AOE on game-cap STR sends you way over damage classes, especially once one considers move through, potential shrunk-to-grown punches, etc.)

 

Ive found the 'batman' style martial artist skillmonkey to be the hardest to make sing on points. Martials already, for better or worse, cost more points than bricks... and they tend to be annoying to GMs, because of the tendancy to, well, get missed alot.

 

As for speedsters, in my experience, they are hard to balance. The combination of high speed and low defenses, coupled with the power of moveby and mutliplied by all their actions, means the line between 'why are we all here' and 'Ahh, the flash is unconcious, it must be tuesday' is very slender.

[assault]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

For what it's worth, I don't regard either speedsters or martial artists as underpowered.

 

The only real problem in some cases is rationalising decent ranged attacks for them, but that isn't strictly necessary anyway.

 

Part of the problem with some characters of these types could be that people are overdoing the "glass cannon" aspect. Try bumping up their defences, and cutting back on their DEX and SPD.

[bubba smith]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

Id say growth bricks are expensive, but potentially terrifying, as their growth often also excuses AOE on STR... of all the tropes, they seem the one most likely to be allowed to violate any sort of game cap on damage classes (inasmuch as AOE on game-cap STR sends you way over damage classes, especially once one considers move through, potential shrunk-to-grown punches, etc.)

 

Ive found the 'batman' style martial artist skillmonkey to be the hardest to make sing on points. Martials already, for better or worse, cost more points than bricks... and they tend to be annoying to GMs, because of the tendancy to, well, get missed alot.

 

As for speedsters, in my experience, they are hard to balance. The combination of high speed and low defenses, coupled with the power of moveby and mutliplied by all their actions, means the line between 'why are we all here' and 'Ahh, the flash is unconcious, it must be tuesday' is very slender.

i'd say martiaL artists, unless theY had wuxia level abilites would seem underpowered compared to most supers who'd look down on them as comparative wanna-bes

oh btw assault, i know what glass JAW means whats a glass CANNON?

[Korvar]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

Glass Cannon = Big attack, but taken down easily.

[CoreBrute]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

Glass Cannon, (I think) is when a ranged attacker has a huge amount of damage but if some thug with a baseball bat hits him he's out in one shot.

[bubba smith]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

thanks korvar and corebrute

[Kenn]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

I think it varies by campaign and play group.

 

It also depends on how close the "source material simulation" is.

 

A human martial artist is more competitive with a brick in a "70s Live Action TV Supers" game where 20 STR and a 4DC martial kick does similar damage as the 40 STR strongman.

 

In a high-powered supers game, the differences between high end human and super human are more pronounced. How do you give Batman enough armour on the batsuit to be competitive with Thor, without turning Batman into Iron Man?

[The Main Man]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

It seems that power is being measured based on defenses...

[assault]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

It seems that power is being measured based on defenses...

 

It's a useful indicator of it, although not the only one.

 

Basically, all characters get hit sooner or later, and if your character is out of the fight, nothing else matters.

 

For what it's worth, though, I often use Damage Reduction as the main defensive power for characters that "aren't bulletproof", but which need to be viable at high power levels. The combination of it and lowish defences is a good way of simulating how characters like Batman and Cyclops function - when they get hit, they get hurt - but they don't get splattered.

 

In terms of attacks, non-wuxia martial artists probably shouldn't hand out quite as much damage as the highest power characters of other types - but they can have Martial Throw, equipment, vehicles and other "stuff" which will still keep them relevant. And, of course, at lower power levels the gap can be smaller or non-existent.

 

In the earliest JLA stories, Batman was usually seen flying the Batplane. Supersonic flight and missiles, yay!

[Houston GM]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

NOMINEES for UNDERPOWERED TROPE (And my initial thoughts)

 

Growth-based bricks

In my opinion, the low DCV isn't the biggest issue. The bigger problem is that they lose the majority of their offense if you put them inside (or anyplace where they can't Grow). It seems like you lose your combat effectiveness in a common circumstance. That's easier to work around for villains than heroes.

 

'batman' style martial artist skillmonkey

That seems to be an issue of trying to be good at too many things at once. If you're a martial artist, and a skillmonkey, and a gadgeteer (a combination of three tropes), you won't be the best at any one of them (unless you're playing with more points than the competition).

 

Antman syndrome i.e Shrinking and/or talking to animals

Looking at Hummingbird and Shrinker, there's definitely some potential for combat effectiveness. Talking to animals seems to be primarily a non-combat information-gathering power. I like characters to have some form of non-combat effectiveness. (How fun is it to play Grond when you're not in a fight?) As long as I can find a way to build the power that's not hideously expensive, talking to animals is a reasonable power to include.

 

people who can change into living animals

We may have a winner for the "underpowered" category here. This concept is probably going to be inefficient with points, and it puts limits on combat effectiveness (CV, DCs, defenses) that will be a lot more harsh than the campaign-imposed limits.

 

 

OTHER POWER ISSUES MENTIONED

 

speedster / martial artist: lack of ranged attacks

I gave my speedster superleaping. Now he is the ranged attack. Missile reflection also works wonders for martial artists.

 

Martial artists annoy GMs because they get missed a lot.

Eh, not really. If I want to hit the martial artist, I'll use AEs, Explosions, BOECV, Accurate, invisible attackers (to halve DCV) or a dozen other tricks.

 

power is being measured based on defenses

if your character is out of the fight, nothing else matters

Regardless of your build, there will be a way to take you out. If I can take you out of the combat for a phase or more, I've effectively stunned you. If I can take you out of the combat for 2 turns or more, I might as well have put you in GM's discretion. I gave my mentalist an EGO-based entangle (60 active points). After running the numbers, I realized I could one-shot Grond or a tyrannosaurus rex with that attack.

 

SPD drains, well-phrased Mind Control commands, Megascale knockback, Major Transforms, etc. If you're out of the fight, it really doesn't matter how they did it.

 

 

Thanks for the ideas. I'm already looking at ways to put together a decent shrinking/growth brick type.

[assault]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

power is being measured based on defenses

if your character is out of the fight, nothing else matters

...

SPD drains, well-phrased Mind Control commands, Megascale knockback, Major Transforms, etc. If you're out of the fight, it really doesn't matter how they did it.

 

The point is that these powers are relatively rare compared to conventional EBs, KAs, Strength, Martial Arts and so on.

 

Any character can be taken out by the GM. That's a given.

 

But there are dangers that are far more common than others - fire, traffic accidents, guns, explosions, conventional attacks like the ones I listed, and so on. It's the ability of characters to deal with these that is a legitimate measure of power.

 

This main significance of this issue is that characters can't be completely one-sided and entirely reliant on not being hit. If they do, they will be subject to random mischance in a way that other characters will not. All characters can be taken out by the GM - but these ones can be taken out by accident.

 

Worse yet, they can be accidentally killed - like a 1st level DnD character, rather than a superhero.

[Vulcan]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

Funny - my 11 DEF 15 (effective) DCV martial artists was often the last man standing in our games...

 

Although that may be because our GM things 24-28 DEF is Brick-level high in a 70 AP game...

[assault]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

Funny - my 11 DEF 15 (effective) DCV martial artists was often the last man standing in our games...

 

CV is a very useful defence. You just need to be aware that:

(1) there are ways to neutralise it, and

(2) it sometimes fails, anyway.

 

When these effects don't apply, it can be pretty sweet. As it should be, of course. After all, a whole lot of very neat characters in the source material work this way.

 

They just don't usually get totally splattered when it doesn't work.

 

Although that may be because our GM things 24-28 DEF is Brick-level high in a 70 AP game...

 

So Bricks end up sucking up lots and lots of damage, eventually exceeding their ability to deal with it. Been there, done that.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

Funny - my 11 DEF 15 (effective) DCV martial artists was often the last man standing in our games...

 

Although that may be because our GM things 24-28 DEF is Brick-level high in a 70 AP game...

 

My simplistic answer in such cases is "what defenses do the Bad Guys have?" If my character can't be comparable to the bad guys, why not? Are we Junior Heroes, fighting villains with far more experience and power, as part of the campaign theme? Or are we just playing with a GM who doesn't want the PC's to be Super?

[Vulcan]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

CV is a very useful defence. You just need to be aware that:

(1) there are ways to neutralise it, and

(2) it sometimes fails, anyway.

 

I'm well aware of that, thank you. One might even say... painfully aware.

 

When these effects don't apply, it can be pretty sweet. As it should be, of course. After all, a whole lot of very neat characters in the source material work this way.

 

They just don't usually get totally splattered when it doesn't work.

 

He had a pretty good run, until he was executed by mutant-hating government thugs - while he was already unconscious from a lucky shot. However, given the character's role in the game and some of his NPC contacts, there is a chance he might be brought back from the dead at some point.

 

Not sure whether to hope for that or not, though. Recent game events could very well have turned him from a reluctant hero back to a full-fledged villian again...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

re: underpowered speedsters

 

I think a great deal of this stems from having to buy more SPD than any other character in a game where the average SPD is too high.

 

I built Flash as part of the Classic JLA and if you compare him to published Champions Universe speedsters he seems underpowered. But in the context of the rest of the JLA he IS "The Fastest Man Alive".

 

...

 

Hard Caps can also artificially create situations where certain character types appear underpowered as well.

[Kenn]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

re: underpowered speedsters

 

I think a great deal of this stems from having to buy more SPD than any other character in a game where the average SPD is too high.

 

I built Flash as part of the Classic JLA and if you compare him to published Champions Universe speedsters he seems underpowered. But in the context of the rest of the JLA he IS "The Fastest Man Alive".

 

I agree. I think the typical SPD of most CU characters is too high. And yes, it does force characters who logically should have high SPD rankings to spend too much to generate the needed effect.

 

I'd rep you but I need to spread it around first.

[nexus]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

Glass Cannon' date=' (I think) is when a ranged attacker has a huge amount of damage but if some thug with a baseball bat hits him he's out in one shot.[/quote']

 

Also known as "Eggs with Hammers" in our group.

[Vulcan]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

That's "Egg with a sledgehammer" in our games. And it usually applies to my characters.

[Haven Walkur]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

Mentalists...perceived by players/comicbook readers as underpowered if they're anything less than Professor X-level. And since the HERO system makes mental powers appallingly expensive, it's very rare to have a powerful PC Mentalist in a game. The big Mentalists are almost always NPCs, and the PC Mentalists almost always underpowered.

 

Mentalists...perceived by the writers of HERO Games as terribly over-powered and automatic game-unbalancers. So in the interests of "game balance," the individual elements of mental powers -- cost per die, limitations, advantages, effect -- are artificially set to price the Mentalist PC out of consideration.

 

If you want a challenge, try building a PC Mentalist that ISN'T underpowered -- on standard starting points.

[nexus]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

I haven't had the many PCs mentalists but the ones that have shown up haven't been "underpowered". I think some of that perception comes from GMs putting the difficulty for mental powers too high (Mind Controlling someone to do almost anything is a always 20+ difficulty, for example) and passing out tons of mental defense the instant a mentalist appears in the game. Also from players that expect to play mentalists like energy blasters and have the same immediate impact. Mentalists take some tactics and patience to run well. The All or Nothing nature of mental powers can be frustrating. If anything I've seen cleverly played mentalists disassemble more scenarios than ones that have felt underpowered. And without the somewhat cheesy extreme of never leaving the base and attacking through mind scan from several miles away.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Underpowered tropes?

 

I favor the term BattleCruiser. All of the firepower and mobility of a battleship, none of the staying power.

 

If you think mentalists are underpowered, you're doing it wrong. Stop trying to get people to do things they are violently opposed to doing and start playing them smarter. Clever and subtle manipulation is how mentalists work, not brute force.

 

At least on starting points.

 

You know what is the scariest thing in a Dark Champions game? A mentalist.