Caps and averages for your campaigns

[SuperJerry]

I started my game as a high powered game. 400 points with 200 in disadantages, with a 20d6 normal damage cap and 6 1/2 killing damage cap, no active point limit (I thought I had a 100 active point limit but was doing it wrong). I did this as a returning GM because I remembered always feeling like I had to leave something out because of points and I wanted my players to push the "wonderous" feeling of their character as much as they'd like.

 

I've since seen the error of my ways and am going to ask them to remake their characters with 200 points + 150 in disads and the 30 experience points they earned and I think they'll be okay with it.

 

I was hoping you could help give me a feel for what kind of averages I should look for in things like Dex, OCV/DCV, Speed, Active points, Average to high damage dice, Defenses, etc., etc. So what are the averages and the limits for your campaign? I'm assuming of course that at least most of you use the 200 + 150 disads.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Re: Caps and averages for your campaigns

 

I started my game as a high powered game. 400 points with 200 in disadantages, with a 20d6 normal damage cap and 6 1/2 killing damage cap, no active point limit (I thought I had a 100 active point limit but was doing it wrong). I did this as a returning GM because I remembered always feeling like I had to leave something out because of points and I wanted my powers to push the "wonderous" feeling of their character as much as they'd like.

 

I've since seen the error of my ways and am going to ask them to remake their characters with 200 points + 150 in disads and the 30 experience points they earned and I think they'll be okay with it.

 

I was hoping you could help give me a feel for what kind of averages I should look for in things like Dex, OCV/DCV, Speed, Active points, Average to high damage dice, Defenses, etc., etc. So what are the averages and the limits for your campaign? I'm assuming of course that at least most of you use the 200 + 150 disads.

 

Hard to say...but I'd say active points in the 50-75 point range depending on the power level you want....60 is usually a good starting maximum for starting active points in any power. Defenses....depends on the character...but I'd say 30 or below barring something extraordinary.

 

Rob

[DevilInSatin]

Re: Caps and averages for your campaigns

 

Why re-invent the wheel?

 

Just use the "Character Types Guidelines Table" and the "Character Ability Guidelines Table". They're in the rulesbook, and in "Champions" on page 126.

 

Unless you want something unusual in your campaign (damage higher than defenses, high 'ristics, etc.), those are well balanced (because they're very time-tested. ).

[Trebuchet]

Re: Caps and averages for your campaigns

 

Our campaign started in 1992 as a 200 + 150 Disads, but most of the characters now have 60+ XP and one just topped 100 XP. Power creep has been minimal; characters have focused more on broadening combat capabilities (versatility is its own strength) and acquiring useful non-Combat Skills. We don't use caps anymore since we all have a pretty good idea of where our characters should be relative to one another and proposed changes have to be discussed and approved by all 5 GMs, but our averages are about:

 

DEX: 23 (Low 20; high 43)

SPD: 5.5 (Low 4; high 9)

Active Points: 65 (High 95)

Damage Dice: 13d6 (Low 10d6; high 16d6 - Pushing, Haymakering, and/or Move Through not included)

Defenses: 26 (Low 12; high 33 and 25% Resistant and Hardened)

CON: 25 (Low 18; high 33)

 

We worry more about protecting each others' schticks than the numbers.

[Marcus]

Re: Caps and averages for your campaigns

 

Our campaign started in 1992 as a 200 + 150 Disads, but most of the characters now have 60+ XP and one just topped 100 XP. Power creep has been minimal; characters have focused more on broadening combat capabilities (versatility is its own strength) and acquiring useful non-Combat Skills. We don't use caps anymore since we all have a pretty good idea of where our characters should be relative to one another and proposed changes have to be discussed and approved by all 5 GMs, but our averages are about:

 

DEX: 23 (Low 20; high 43)

SPD: 5.5 (Low 4; high 9)

Active Points: 65 (High 95)

Damage Dice: 13d6 (Low 10d6; high 16d6 - Pushing, Haymakering, and/or Move Through not included)

Defenses: 26 (Low 12; high 33 and 75% Resistant and Hardened)

CON: 25 (Low 18; high 33)

 

We worry more about protecting each others' schticks than the numbers.

 

Hmm... 100 XP in... 16 years... thats pretty restrained character growth. Im not sure how my players would respond to 6 XPs a year.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Caps and averages for your campaigns

 

Treb, IIRC your games had one cap that I always found interesting, limiting the sum of DC's + SPD, which enforced a requirement that capacity for above average damage required reduced frequency with which it could be applied.

 

I'm not a big fan of caps overall. I do like a conceptual framework of averages, such as average damage being, say, 12DC, average defenses being, say, about 25 and average SPD being, say, 5 - 6 and the typical character having maybe three roughly equal powered attack options. Average OCV and DCV might be about 9 each.

 

A typical character would likely be above average in a couple of areas, however there would normally be tradeoffs. Having defenses into the 30's might require a lower DCV. Higher than average attacks might trade off with lower OCV, reduced SPD and/or less flexibility in attacks. An Archer with campaign average attacks, high OCV and many attack options might have lower defensive abilities than the average.

 

I tend to be nervous that campaign caps quickly become campaign standards. Everyone has a 12 DC attack, 25 PD and ED, a SPD of 6 and an OCV and DCV of 10, so all the characters look the same. I'd rather see more variety, beyond "my 12 DC is an Energy Blast and my 25 PD and ED comes mainly from a Force field", "my 12 DC is STR and my 25 PD and ED comes from PD/ED", and "my 12 DC is in mental powers and my 25 PD and ED comes mainly from an armored costume".

 

Sad to say, class systems do this well by forcing roles on various characters, or at least encouraging them.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Caps and averages for your campaigns

 

Hmm... 100 XP in... 16 years... thats pretty restrained character growth. Im not sure how my players would respond to 6 XPs a year.

There were several years in which we only got in one game session. Things have become more regular since about 2004; and we manage 10 or 11 sessions a year now.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Caps and averages for your campaigns

 

Treb' date=' IIRC your games had one cap that I always found interesting, limiting the sum of DC's + SPD, which enforced a requirement that capacity for above average damage required reduced frequency with which it could be applied.[/quote']I probably should have noted that. It's actually DC + SPD <= 20; although we've been considering raising it as the campaign progresses. It's also considered a guideline and not a hard and fast rule.

 

I'm not a big fan of caps overall. I do like a conceptual framework of averages, such as average damage being, say, 12DC, average defenses being, say, about 25 and average SPD being, say, 5 - 6 and the typical character having maybe three roughly equal powered attack options. Average OCV and DCV might be about 9 each.

 

A typical character would likely be above average in a couple of areas, however there would normally be tradeoffs. Having defenses into the 30's might require a lower DCV. Higher than average attacks might trade off with lower OCV, reduced SPD and/or less flexibility in attacks. An Archer with campaign average attacks, high OCV and many attack options might have lower defensive abilities than the average.

 

I tend to be nervous that campaign caps quickly become campaign standards. Everyone has a 12 DC attack, 25 PD and ED, a SPD of 6 and an OCV and DCV of 10, so all the characters look the same. I'd rather see more variety, beyond "my 12 DC is an Energy Blast and my 25 PD and ED comes mainly from a Force field", "my 12 DC is STR and my 25 PD and ED comes from PD/ED", and "my 12 DC is in mental powers and my 25 PD and ED comes mainly from an armored costume".

This was our experience as well; which is why when we switched from 4th Edition Hero to 5th we dropped the caps we originally had required. Happily, it increased the diversity in the team; a couple of characters (including mine) actually got slightly weaker in combat.

[Arkham]

Re: Caps and averages for your campaigns

 

My campaign is odd, being a mystic supers game rather than normal supers. This means most of the archetypes are not represented and the DC/AP/DEX ranges are both closer together, and have the potential to be vastly different depending on what people are doing with their VPPs. ( All but 2 of the characters have VPPs, and one of those without has an expansive Multiform )

Averages:

Dex: 16 ( 1 @ 9, 1 @ 11, 2 @ 18, 1 @ 23 )

SPD: 5 ( All the characters have a speed 5, even the zombie. )

Active Points: 75 ( This is the rough one. 3 characters have 15 DC attacks normally, 1 has no attacks other than an EGO+PRE Transfer but has a VPP that can be boosted through various methods, and one character has roughly 12 DC attacks, but also has 75 AP mental powers. The 3 VPPs can further swing the Damage Classes into weird directions. )

Defenses: 25ish. Widely varied. From 18PD/15rPD before VPP, to 25rPD+75% DR, to the fairly 'normal' 30 point force field. But again, with so many Magical VPPs, there is no way to know exactly how defended the characters will be when they actually start fighting. It tends to end up with the PCs rising to the occasion instead of facing the opposition with what they start with.

CON: 22 ( 2 @ 10, 2 @ 20, 1 @ 50 )

 

2 characters can Regenerate from Dead. Only 1 character has KB Resistance, and that is on an activation roll with a drawback.

 

The only set standards during creation was a rough 15 damage class limit on reusable attacks, and a list of powers that cannot be used either at all, or without them being your 'main schtick'.

No resurrection aside from self-only.

No healing more than 1/2 the damage of any given attack unless it is either self-only, or has significant drawbacks that would keep you from sitting in the ER all day putting doctors out of work.

No clairsentience unless it is a major schtick, or an easily accessible focus.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Caps and averages for your campaigns

 

The last game I ran (which went for over 2 years) started at 250 pts. and got upto to roughly 450 pts. When we at the 350 pt. level, the maximum AP cap was set at 60 with a few "homebrew" calculations on what added up to 60.

 

- Attack powers were limited to 60 AP. Most characters in the group had a max AP attack.

 

- Defenses were limited to 30 AP regardless of what powers you stacked to get there (we decided that they are worth twice as much based on how they are affected by adjustment powers), so PD and ED could max out at 30 each. Resistance was not counted, so 30 PD/ 30 ED Resistant Defenses were possible. The goup averaged around 27 PD and ED, but other Defense Powers like Missile Deflection, Force Walls, and Damage Reduction were common.

 

- Other stats like CON and REC followed the same rule, maxing out at 30. Average Con was 25ish and most had REC in the 15ish range IIRC.

 

- Base DEX and Speed were not counted, making DEX 30/ SPD 7 the camapign max. Average DEX and Speed for the group was roughly 25/ 5.5.

 

- CVs maxed out at 12 (we decided that one OCV or DCV averaged out at 5 pts. per point regardless of how you got there, this was based on the cost of Negative Combat Skill Levels). Our average CVs were probably around 10.

 

I think we were pretty close to typical. Our combats varied from fast 1 Turn battles to long 3-4 Turn wars. I hope that helps.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Caps and averages for your campaigns

 

I like the idea of combining a 12 DC limit with a 75 Active Point limit. The math allows you to have a 10d6 EB with a +1/2 Advantage or a 12d6 EB with 1/2 End.

 

Something no one has mentioned yet but might be worth noting...

 

Just because a character is capable of 15+ DC's doesn't mean that they will use that much force in most situations.

 

Example: Superman. I recently began building the classic 'Silver/Post-Crises/Animated Justice League members and ended up with a 75 top STR for Supes. In most situations his code vs. killing will preclude him from using a straight 15d6 punch vs. all but the most obviously resilient opponents. He would be pulling and/or using less dice or alternatives to direct attacks in most situations.

[Markdoc]

Re: Caps and averages for your campaigns

 

Hmm... 100 XP in... 16 years... thats pretty restrained character growth. Im not sure how my players would respond to 6 XPs a year.

 

That was my thought too! My current game is 3 years old in a week or so and the one player who's been at every session has just topped 80 XP.

 

There were several years in which we only got in one game session. Things have become more regular since about 2004; and we manage 10 or 11 sessions a year now.

 

Ah - that's comforting to know We try to play every two weeks and manage more like 14-16 games a year. Hmmmm.... that's about 1.8 XP per session ....sounds about right.

 

cheers, Mark

[HawksmoorSD]

Re: Caps and averages for your campaigns

 

The way I set up for my game used a rule of x. Our Offensive and Defensive X was at 22 and consisted of the following

 

Offensive X

Attack Power : 8 to 12 DCs, 10 average

OCV : 6 to 10 with levels, 8 average. That allowed for dex 15 to 25 which was our starting range.

Spd : 3-5, 4 average

 

Defensive X

DCV: Same as OCV

T Def : 15 to 25 T Def to start. Divide by 3 for purpose of the X gives a range of 5 to 8.

Stun: Divide by 5.

 

We normally didn't sweat the end use and as a house rule we used the idea that supers do 2x effect vs real world and real world things do .5 effect to supers. That gave us a lot of good ranges and a lot a fun games for all of 250 pts. Life was good.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Caps and averages for your campaigns

 

For a 350 game, I typically go with a 12DC Cap (not active points; you can have a 12d6 zero END attack if you want, that's still 12 Damage classes) and 30 Defenses to start with, but from there, you can spend your XP pretty much however you want; I only use starting caps. If you want to throw all your points into your EB, go for it.

 

The game I'm presently brainstorming will be a lot lower, probably 8 DC and 20 defenses ... since supers are going to be few, I need to have the PCs at a power level where normals are still at least a semi-credible threat.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Caps and averages for your campaigns

 

I use a soft cap DC class system set at 12 damage classes each DC pass the cap doubles in cost. low end is 8 high end is 15. average is about 10. characters are around 350-400 points starting.

[Alibear]

Re: Caps and averages for your campaigns

 

12-15 dice normal attacks. Many have one shot (per run) much bigger attacks in the 18-20 dice range.

[SuperJerry]

Re: Caps and averages for your campaigns

 

Thanks for the input guys. I appreciate it

[Marcus]

Re: Caps and averages for your campaigns

 

There were several years in which we only got in one game session. Things have become more regular since about 2004; and we manage 10 or 11 sessions a year now.

 

Ahh, that makes sense. Congrats on being able to hold the game together that long... our games hereabouts seem to have a shelf life, and wonce they get 'quiet', they never come back to life.

[Tech]

Re: Caps and averages for your campaigns

 

So what are the averages and the limits for your campaign? I'm assuming of course that at least most of you use the 200 + 150 disads.

 

Hooboy, I have to think about that for that's not an easy question when you have a 20+ year old Champions campaign. We don't have a cap on active points (I can hear some gasps.) What will be listed comes from an experienced bunch of veteran players (and some newer) in a seasoned campaign. Do not try to use this for a beginning campaign. Ok, here we go:

_____________________________________

 

-Base Points: Our Base points runs from 100-200 points, depending on the nature of the character and disadvantages. So, yes, we use a variable Base. Why? The concept is more important than anything else, so if you don't want to get bloated on disadvantages, you may increase your base from 100 upwards to a max of 200.

 

-Active Points: variable but generally 50-60 points. However... there are some powers in excess of 80 AP, one at around 150 AP (used once) and one at over 210 AP (used once).

 

-Damage: generally 10 or 11d6 but ranges from 2.5d6 to 20d6.

 

-Dexterity: around 23 generally. Ranges from 18 to 32.

 

-Con: these go all over the place. If pressed for an answer, I'd say generally around 23 but we have them ranged from 13 to 45.

 

-PD and ED: ranging from 5-40, but in general around 23-25

 

-Speed: generally 5 or 6, but we have heroes with Speeds from 4 to 10.

 

-OCV/DCV: in general 8. However, OCV (without levels) range from 6 to 11; DCV (without levels) range from 6 to 11. With levels and dodging, the max DCV is 16, possibly 17 (but not sure about that)

 

-Skill rolls: around 12 or less. Ranges from '8 or less' to '20 or less'.

 

 

Again, character concepts are more important to us than point totals. We play fast-and-loose with rules if your concept requires it because the game (and campaign) is for the players to have fun while using their characters.

[HawksmoorSD]

Re: Caps and averages for your campaigns

 

Its not a cap but I figured I'd toss this at you guys. During one of our games to come up with something a little new I popped off with the idea that most characters on most teams aren't built off the same amount of points. A perfect example of this would be Thor and Hawkeye.

 

Anyways what I suggested was everyone had 140 points base + 100 pts disads. To that we added 1d6 x 10 points to the base, so our range ended up from 250 to 300 pts. We ended up with a nice range of characters and backgrounds.

 

YMMV .02 pie and so on.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Caps and averages for your campaigns

 

A perfect example of this would be Thor and Hawkeye.

 

 

What, that Hawkeye would clearly be more expensive due to all his skills?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Caps and averages for your campaigns

 

Its not a cap but I figured I'd toss this at you guys. During one of our games to come up with something a little new I popped off with the idea that most characters on most teams aren't built off the same amount of points. A perfect example of this would be Thor and Hawkeye.

 

Anyways what I suggested was everyone had 140 points base + 100 pts disads. To that we added 1d6 x 10 points to the base, so our range ended up from 250 to 300 pts. We ended up with a nice range of characters and backgrounds.

 

YMMV .02 pie and so on.

 

That works fine in a comic book, where a single writer has absolute control over the actions of all characters, and the results of those actions, thus everything falls by the needs of the narrative. If the writer wants/needs the Hulk to curbstomp Thor then get one-shotted by Hawkeye, he can do that.

 

In an RPG, it's a lot harder to juggle characters of extremely disparate power levels. Now, for your game, it's not THAT disparate ... 50 points isn't a huge gap. I'd argue that Thor is more than 50 points more expensive than Hawkeye however. You also don't mention if characters with more points got higher DC/defense caps or not, or if those extra points just made for more options and utility powers.