Mind Control - how much is glowing eyes worth?

[Barton]

In movies and TV a classic way to "show" mind control is the effected person's eyes are glowing red. This would be a what in HERO terms? As a limitation worth -1/4 Visible? I think -1/2 is the right value personally.

Okay gang discuss and debate...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Mind Control - how much is glowing eyes worth?

 

I would say -0 to -1/4 since you seem to be indicating that it is only visible to the sight group.

 

Visible is a (-1/4) Limitation by the book but it has more consequences:

 

Per: Hero System Fifth Edition Rule Book, page 202; Revised, page 309

 

Characters can buy this Limitation only for Powers which are normally invisible. A Visible Power can be perceived like any other Power: by three Sense Groups.

[eightiesboi]

Re: Mind Control - how much is glowing eyes worth?

 

I would say -0 to -1/4 since you seem to be indicating that it is only visible to the sight group.

 

Visible is a (-1/4) Limitation by the book but it has more consequences:

 

Per: Hero System Fifth Edition Rule Book, page 202; Revised, page 309

 

The same page has an example mind control power "Argent Control" with a -1/4 Visible limitation where the limitation is Both the character's and victim's eyes turn a solid silver color, and an example ego attack with a -1/4 Visible limitation with text that says, A silvery-green beam of energy lances out from the character's forehead and hits the target's head.

 

Based on these examples, I would ask the player to better describe the "glowing" eyes. If the glow is something that is barely noticeable, or can be concealed with a pair of sunglasses, I would make it a 0 lim. If it was bright and impossible to ignore, I would give it a -1/4.

 

(Note that the examples listed in 5ER seem to contradict the rules on the same page, which clearly state that mental powers with this limitation must be visible to three groups in addition to the mental group.)

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Mind Control - how much is glowing eyes worth?

 

And here I thought mental powers, by nature, were invisible to the sight group? Well, to be fair, I tend to bend this rule regardless, since I consider getting wailed by the attack (touch/tactile) to count, and then it's usually Visible and Audible.

 

For example: The big chain goes SWOOSH SWOOSH SWOOSH and you can see it in a split second before it unpolitely forces your head to turn 90 degrees.

 

I swear there's a power set where that doesn't apply. Hrm. *wanders off to puzzle*

[Crissa]

Re: Mind Control - how much is glowing eyes worth?

 

What, so you have to be able to hear, smell, and taste the possession? From how far?

 

That's pretty severe.

 

-Crissa

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Mind Control - how much is glowing eyes worth?

 

What, so you have to be able to hear, smell, and taste the possession? From how far?

 

That's pretty severe.

 

-Crissa

 

Well, mental powers are already visible to the Mental Sense Group so just 2 others are necessary if the Visible Limitation is taken.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mind Control - how much is glowing eyes worth?

 

First of all you take a pair of scissors and cut out the 'power visibility' rules, the ones about number of senses and such. Keep them, though, you'll be needing them later.

 

Next you carefully tape in some blank paper to to the holes.

 

Write, in your best handwriting, on the paper 'If a power is visible, it is obvious to proximate observers that it is being used, and by whom.', and you are good to go.

 

Job done.

 

Oh, those rules about visibility make great cat litter. If you don't have a cat it looks like keeping them was a huge waste of time.

 

What?

[eightiesboi]

Re: Mind Control - how much is glowing eyes worth?

 

Well' date=' mental powers are already visible to the Mental Sense Group so just 2 others are necessary if the Visible Limitation is taken.[/quote']

 

Actually, unless I am misreading it, 5ER says that mental powers with the "Visible" limitation must take 3 *additional* groups (that is, not including the mental sense group).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Mind Control - how much is glowing eyes worth?

 

Actually' date=' unless I am misreading it, 5ER says that mental powers with the "Visible" limitation must take 3 *additional* groups (that is, not including the mental sense group).[/quote']

 

Just goes to show what happens when I try going on memory alone.

 

Good catch.

[Vondy]

Re: Mind Control - how much is glowing eyes worth?

 

Something the visibility rules don't take into effect is that humans (the base template) rely more heavily on their vision than other senses and that powers visible to the sight group, from a common sense perspective, can not only be easily detected, but their source, as well can be almost immediately and easily identified. Our sight perception is our default targeting sense (in game terms). As a result, IMO, the sight group should be worth more than other sense groups when adjudicating the value of the limitation. If it were me I'd give the -1/4 for just "visible to the sight group."

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: Mind Control - how much is glowing eyes worth?

 

What, so you have to be able to hear, smell, and taste the possession? From how far?

 

That's pretty severe.

Well, Linda Blair looked different, sounded different, and I'm pretty sure you could smell that pea soup upchuck from a distance...

[Spence]

Re: Mind Control - how much is glowing eyes worth?

 

• 5th Rev page 98 – “As discussed on page 102, almost all Powers that cost END to use must have a perceivable special effect (even if bought to 0 END cost; the text notes exceptions).”
   
  5th Rev Page 98 – “A perceivable power can be perceived by three different Sense Groups (see Senses In The Hero System, page 348). These normally include the Sight Sense and the Hearing Sense Group – observers can see and hear any use of the power. The Third Sense Group depends on the power’s special effects.”
   
  5th Rev page 98 – “Under special circumstances, the GM may rule that a power cannot be perceived by Hearing or Sight. However, characters cannot use this as a cheap way to get the equivalent of the Invisible Power Effects Advantage for free.”
   
  5th Rev page 119 – “All Mental Powers are invisible to characters who do not themselves have a Mental Power or Mental Awareness. However, the target of a mental attack can sense the source of the attack and knows he’s been attacked with.”

 

So these paragraphs establish the criteria but also seem to contradict each other. In my worlds I apply them this way. The most critical item is in Hero nothing gets something for nothing. So you don’t get IPE for free, but on the other hand you don’t get to ‘see’ mental power if you don’t have any mental capabilities. In my games a non-mental or metal bought as a physical (telekinesis bought as a tractor beam) have a definable and visible connection between attacker and target as well as the audio component.

 

For example:

 

Situation One - Everyone is in plain sight. Villain is targeting the hero Target while the Bystander looks on. Villain is using his Tractor Beam to latch onto Target and Crush him. When Villain attacks his eyes light up and a line of space between him and Target wavers and distorts with the powerful energies unleashed along with a high pitched whine and the Tractor Beam generator go to full power. Observer instantly knows and can see that Villain attacked Target.

 

Situation Two - Now let’s say that Villain is standing around the corner. Observer can see Target but not Villain. When Villain attacks with his Tractor Beam Observer cannot see him. However he can hear a whining noise from around the corner and see a beam of distortion reach out and strike Target.

 

Now let’s take both Situations with a Mental power, The same telekinesis but as a mental attack vice device.

 

Situation One – When Villain attacks his eyes glow but there is no visible or audio connection to Target. All Observer see’s is Target crumbling under an invisible attack. If Observer is fairly smart he can connect Villains glowing eyes to an attack, but the glowing eyes could also just be normal for Villain.

 

Situation Two – Observer would see nothing to indicate Villain was around the corner. He would just see Target go down.

 

Because of this I wouldn’t give glowing eyes anything. I would also make some kind of non-connective manifestation mandatory. The key phrase for me is However, characters cannot use this as a cheap way to get the equivalent of the Invisible Power Effects Advantage for free.

 

But that is just me

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Mind Control - how much is glowing eyes worth?

 

something else worth noting...

 

Just because a power is visible to a certain sense does not automatically mean that another character with that sense notices its use.

 

In many cases the other character would still need to make a Perception Roll with appropriate modifiers to notice the power's use.

[Spence]

Re: Mind Control - how much is glowing eyes worth?

 

something else worth noting...

 

Just because a power is visible to a certain sense does not automatically mean that another character with that sense notices its use.

 

In many cases the other character would still need to make a Perception Roll with appropriate modifiers to notice the power's use.

 

Very true....

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mind Control - how much is glowing eyes worth?

 

Refering back to the OP, often in the 'literature' the eyes glow momentarily red. If this is what you are after then I'd say that is worth +0. If the eyes of the mind controlled remain red, I'd give you a +1/4 - that is the sort of thing that is going to be noticed.

[Vondy]

Re: Mind Control - how much is glowing eyes worth?

 

Refering back to the OP' date=' often in the 'literature' the eyes glow [i']momentarily[/i] red. If this is what you are after then I'd say that is worth +0. If the eyes of the mind controlled remain red, I'd give you a +1/4 - that is the sort of thing that is going to be noticed.

 

 

Often, in comics and film, the use of special effects for powers is a cue for the viewer/reader who is sitting "beyond the fourth wall" and not something that is, or would realistically be, noticeable to those "on stage." Its intended to let us know something is happening (remember the industry assumption: all viewers are idiots).

 

In some cases its something characters "on stage" notice, but not always. Sometimes other characters seem patently oblivious to said effects even when a normal person would be saying "what the hell was that?!"

 

As such, if someone wants to model it and have it be visible as a chincey genre shtick, more power to them, but in terms of genre simulation - it isn't strictly necessary and may not make sense once the assumption of "viewers are idiots" is removed.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mind Control - how much is glowing eyes worth?

 

Often, in comics and film, the use of special effects for powers is a cue for the viewer/reader who is sitting "beyond the fourth wall" and not something that is, or would realistically be, noticeable to those "on stage." Its intended to let us know something is happening (remember the industry assumption: all viewers are idiots).

 

In some cases its something characters "on stage" notice, but not always. Sometimes other characters seem patently oblivious to said effects even when a normal person would be saying "what the hell was that?!"

 

As such, if someone wants to model it and have it be visible as a chincey genre shtick, more power to them, but in terms of genre simulation - it isn't strictly necessary and may not make sense once the assumption of "viewers are idiots" is removed.

 

Excellent point. Ultimately I suppose it comes down tot his: does the player WANT peopel to notice that he is mind controlling someone? If so that is worth a limtiation - if it is just a cue for idiot viewers, it is not.

[Spence]

Re: Mind Control - how much is glowing eyes worth?

 

I just re-read the post. I misread the original question. I was thinking of the person 'using' the mind control. Not the person 'being' mind controlled.

 

So....nevermind

[nexus]

Re: Mind Control - how much is glowing eyes worth?

 

IMO, it depends on the nature of the campaign. In a "typical" superheroic style encounter it might not matter much that the target is obviously mind controlled especially if the MC isn't telepathic in nature maybe -0 to -1/4th In a campaign where subtly comes into play more often the player is giving up the covert options for Mind Control in a big way so perhaps -1/2.

 

 

[off topic]

Excellent point. Ultimately I suppose it comes down tot his: does the player WANT people to notice that he is mind controlling someone? If so that is worth a limitation - if it is just a cue for idiot viewers' date=' it is not.[/quote']

 

The amusing thing about the "viewers are idiots" assumption is that many times when a show or story doesn't assume the viewers can't infer what's going on the viewers often assume the writers are idiots and made a mistake or are being lazy.

[/off topic]