Expanding Normal Characteristic Maxima

[Katherine]

This is a House rule my group was thinking of adopting. Normal Characteristic Maxima would make the character with it more mundane almost like an extra. They'd have to use all the Heroic rules for Endurance, Wounding, Impairment, Disabling, Bleeding and all as well as having the doubled costs for Characteristics over 20. Does this sound feasible?

[Lucius]

Re: Expanding Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

I have a suggestion.

 

Drop "Normal Characteristic Maxima." It was a bad idea to begin with.

 

Have a Disad called "Mere Mortal" or "Only Human." They'd be subject to Heroic rules, as you suggest. Their attacks don't do Knockback, but they can still take Knockback from superbeings.

 

Unless they buy off the Disadvantage, they can't take "superhuman" characteristics (wherever you decide to set the limit of "human.")

Not "pay double points for." Can't have, except possibly in limited forms (like a battlesuit.)

 

Nor can they have superhuman powers (again, without buying off the Disadvantage) that are innate to themselves - they can use a Focus, they can be the beneficiaries of a magickal spell or maybe even a biotech "booster drug" but they can't have permanent abilities that don't make sense for a "Normal Human."

 

Consider strictly enforcing, and maybe even expanding, the rules on Environmental Effects. Normal Man will suffer in the heat, cold, etc. If he goes too long without food or rest maybe enforce starvation or Long Term Endurance rules, or just make him make CON rolls to avoid passing out.

 

If the character has ways around the restrictions of being normal, allow a lesser version of the Disadvantage. This would apply if, for example, the character had a lot of abilities "Only in Hero ID."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Only in Palindromedary ID

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Expanding Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

This is a House rule my group was thinking of adopting. Normal Characteristic Maxima would make the character with it more mundane almost like an extra. They'd have to use all the Heroic rules for Endurance' date=' Wounding, Impairment, Disabling, Bleeding and all as well as having the doubled costs for Characteristics over 20. Does this sound feasible?[/quote']

 

It sounds like no one would ever take it voluntarily, thus making it pointless.

[Vondy]

Re: Expanding Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

I recommend dropping it entirely and just building characters to concept and campaign guides.

[Katherine]

Re: Expanding Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

It sounds like no one would ever take it voluntarily' date=' thus making it pointless.[/quote']

 

The reason the idea came up was because two players wanted it for the upcoming Cabal 12 game so that's not an issue.

[Lucius]

Re: Expanding Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

You might consider, rather than including the Heroic END rules in the Disad, letting them take a limitation on STR, Movement, and all powers, so they cost more END

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Superheroic palindromedary

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Expanding Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

This is a House rule my group was thinking of adopting. Normal Characteristic Maxima would make the character with it more mundane almost like an extra. They'd have to use all the Heroic rules for Endurance' date=' Wounding, Impairment, Disabling, Bleeding and all as well as having the doubled costs for Characteristics over 20. Does this sound feasible?[/quote']

 

 

 

That's pretty much what we've done for over a decade but I've made a separate physical limitation named as Lucius talked about called "mere mortal" that makes you use heroic rules instead of super heroic.

My group quite willingly takes it if in concept because they feel it defines a normal human if that's what they want to be. usually as mentioned combined with a only in HERO ID". Even if your group doesn't. It could be useful for NPCs

[pinecone]

Re: Expanding Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

This is a House rule my group was thinking of adopting. Normal Characteristic Maxima would make the character with it more mundane almost like an extra. They'd have to use all the Heroic rules for Endurance' date=' Wounding, Impairment, Disabling, Bleeding and all as well as having the doubled costs for Characteristics over 20. Does this sound feasible?[/quote']

 

Sure...I'd name it "Mook!" yadda, yadda....but it's so fierce would anyone take it?

[Vondy]

Re: Expanding Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

Sure...I'd name it "Mook!" yadda' date=' yadda....but it's so fierce would anyone take it?[/quote']

 

She said players had expressed an interest. Go figure.

[Katherine]

Re: Expanding Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

They like playing normal (or very close to it) people in games like this. Both mostly play mortals in our WOD and Exalted games.

[Vulcan]

Re: Expanding Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

That's pretty much what we've done for over a decade but I've made a separate physical limitation named as Lucius talked about called "mere mortal" that makes you use heroic rules instead of super heroic.

My group quite willingly takes it if in concept because they feel it defines a normal human if that's what they want to be. usually as mentioned combined with a only in HERO ID". Even if your group doesn't. It could be useful for NPCs

 

In some settings it might almost be an advantage! For example, when mutants are hated and hunted and there are robots that can detect mutants, being a 'mere mortal' puts you beneath their notice...

[Vondy]

Re: Expanding Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

They like playing normal (or very close to it) people in games like this. Both mostly play mortals in our WOD and Exalted games.

 

I understand that part - I just wouldn't model a "normal" that way.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Expanding Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

I've used a "Mere Mortal" Limitation much like this for a while, but only for NPCs, as a default Limitation for "normal people" in a superheroic game, to distinguish them both from true superhumans, and the humans with sufficiently extraordinary talent and training to hang with them. Never had a player want to use it for a PC, though.

[Tech]

Re: Expanding Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

I know many people don't like NCM (my group does like it). It sounds feasible as long as it is indeed a disadvantage.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Expanding Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

To be Devil's Advocate for a moment...

 

I like NCM; I always have. I like knowing what the 'guideline' is to differentiate from human capability and super/inhuman capability. That said, based on what you've described, Katherine, I would go with something more akin to 'mere mortal' than 'NCM' and raise the cost from 20 to 25, especially if they're in a Supers campaign.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Expanding Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

I know many people don't like NCM (my group does like it). It sounds feasible as long as it is indeed a disadvantage.

 

What makes NCM a disadvantage? Have you ever seen a character who has spent 20 or more points on characteristics whose cost would then be doubled take this disadvantage? How is it any more a Disadvantage to a character with, say, CON 23 and no other stats in excess of NCM than "pays double for mental powers" would be to a Brick with Mental Awareness?

 

"Mere Mortal" would at least be a disadvantage, changing the rules that would otherwise apply to the character in question regardless of how he spent his points.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Expanding Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

I think that NCM is a useful metagame construct, but I also think that it is sadly under-utilised. Although I rarely use it at all, mainly playing in superheroic games, I think that it could be a lot more use in heroic games if it worked a little differently. First off make the NCM break point for cost doubling 15, then allow a characteristic set to exceed the normal up to 20 points before the doubling starts.

 

By characteristic set I mean this: you pick one or more characteristics which have a cost for +1 point of 3, so DEX would be one example, STR+CON would be another, EGO+PRE would be another - the point is that the 'group' adds up to 3 character poitns for a +1 increase. This means that a character will top out (usually) at 15 points for a primary characteristic but 1 to 3 of them can go up to 20 without cost doubling. That should encourage a more varied characteristic profile - at present characteristics are usually the most efficient way of increasing overall effeciveness so are often quite high across the board for most characters.

 

You could even change the NCM profile, not as a disadvantage, but as a campaign requirement: low powered games might have 13/18 as their break points, whereas higher powered games might go to 18/25, for example.

 

You could even do something similar for superheroic games, perhaps with a broader spread: 20/50, for example, would allow for generally high characteristics, in the top human range, with a few genuinely superhuman characteristics.

 

Obviously that only works well for primaries, but you could do something similar with figured characteristics if you liked the idea.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Expanding Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

I'm not desperately keen on the 'Mere Mortal' approach, cunning and inventive as it is, because I'm not that hot on the idea of running multiple rules sets in the same game.

 

Of course you could simply treat 'Mere Mortal' as a version of the 'real' limitation but for people, making them generally more frangible and, for instance, not being able to move their centre of mass up more than a metre with a jump no matter if they do have a 20 STR. No superhuman pushes, having to clutch the offending limb and suck at their teeth for a good minute after slamming a finger in the door. You know the sort of thing.

 

Mind you that also sounds like quite a lot of work for the GM, which I'm largely not in favour of.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Expanding Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

To Sean's comment, it also makes the character "unheroic". If the goal is to play heroes, the Mere Mortal disadvantage seems counter to that goal.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Expanding Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

I'm not desperately keen on the 'Mere Mortal' approach, cunning and inventive as it is, because I'm not that hot on the idea of running multiple rules sets in the same game.

 

Of course you could simply treat 'Mere Mortal' as a version of the 'real' limitation but for people, making them generally more frangible and, for instance, not being able to move their centre of mass up more than a metre with a jump no matter if they do have a 20 STR. No superhuman pushes, having to clutch the offending limb and suck at their teeth for a good minute after slamming a finger in the door. You know the sort of thing.

 

Mind you that also sounds like quite a lot of work for the GM, which I'm largely not in favour of.

 

 

To Sean's comment' date=' it also makes the character "unheroic". If the goal is to play heroes, the Mere Mortal disadvantage seems counter to that goal.[/quote']

 

I'm in agreement with both of you gentlemen, which is why I've always confined it to NPCs; mostly innocent bystanders and "mooks," but sometimes DNPCs. It's a default Disadvantage for the average person on the street in my games. I find it a useful mechanism to emphasize the players' feeling of "superness" when running their characters. Since it only comes into play when I as GM want to use it, it doesn't really add to my rules burden.

 

Sometimes dealing with a Mere Mortal can make a difference to a scenario, though. For example, in my supers games I use House Rules which make Mere Mortals easier to kill with one shot than supers. In hostage situations I used to notice a disturbing tendency among some players to take reckless actions in which the hostages might get hurt, since by HERO rules people are so difficult to kill quickly that the players assume they'll have time to save them afterward. Knowing there's a good chance the hostages will die outright if the PCs make a mistake causes them to treat hostages as gingerly as they should.

[pinecone]

Re: Expanding Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

Yeah I might go with a battery of disadds....Normal char max (depends on how limiting....Only one legundary stat is like 10 pts...) Vuln Falling and KB, Phylim: Uses all damage rules( Bleeding, hit locations...) so they get "full value" for "Mooking out"

 

And avoid the pain of the stuff they don't take...(For example having hit locations in a Supers game almost ensures a rapid death. "Grond hit you...in...the Face!"

 

I enjoy playing "nonSuper" super heros (Bat clones etc) But without some comix physics it's real hard to do....

[pinecone]

Re: Expanding Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

I think that NCM is a useful metagame construct, but I also think that it is sadly under-utilised. Although I rarely use it at all, mainly playing in superheroic games, I think that it could be a lot more use in heroic games if it worked a little differently. First off make the NCM break point for cost doubling 15, then allow a characteristic set to exceed the normal up to 20 points before the doubling starts.

 

By characteristic set I mean this: you pick one or more characteristics which have a cost for +1 point of 3, so DEX would be one example, STR+CON would be another, EGO+PRE would be another - the point is that the 'group' adds up to 3 character poitns for a +1 increase. This means that a character will top out (usually) at 15 points for a primary characteristic but 1 to 3 of them can go up to 20 without cost doubling. That should encourage a more varied characteristic profile - at present characteristics are usually the most efficient way of increasing overall effeciveness so are often quite high across the board for most characters.

 

You could even change the NCM profile, not as a disadvantage, but as a campaign requirement: low powered games might have 13/18 as their break points, whereas higher powered games might go to 18/25, for example.

 

You could even do something similar for superheroic games, perhaps with a broader spread: 20/50, for example, would allow for generally high characteristics, in the top human range, with a few genuinely superhuman characteristics.

 

Obviously that only works well for primaries, but you could do something similar with figured characteristics if you liked the idea.

 

Some interseting thoughts, I've often thought of changing NCM to max 15, plus one stat to 20 (or maybe 25 "legendary") so that each player could "shine" the Barbarian has the ST 20 -25 the "spaniard" has the Dex 23 etc....

[jtelson]

Re: Expanding Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

What makes NCM a disadvantage? Have you ever seen a character who has spent 20 or more points on characteristics whose cost would then be doubled take this disadvantage? How is it any more a Disadvantage to a character with' date=' say, CON 23 and no other stats in excess of NCM than "pays double for mental powers" would be to a Brick with Mental Awareness?[/quote']

 

I go back and forth on this one in my head. I usually end up on the side of it being a disad in the same way that even if I'm planning on playing a character who won't kill, that a Code Against Killing is still a valid disad.

 

Disads pretty much fall into two catagories, generate downstream challenges (Hunteds, Social Limits, some Psych or Phys Limits)or removing/limiting downstream options (Most Psych and Phys Limits). NCM falls into the later.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Expanding Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

I go back and forth on this one in my head. I usually end up on the side of it being a disad in the same way that even if I'm planning on playing a character who won't kill' date=' that a Code Against Killing is still a valid disad. [/quote']

 

So why isn't there a disadvantage for any subset of abilities costing double? "Mental powers cost double" is a disadvantage as much as "characteristics over these limits cost double".

 

Disads pretty much fall into two catagories' date=' generate downstream challenges (Hunteds, Social Limits, some Psych or Phys Limits)or removing/limiting downstream options (Most Psych and Phys Limits). NCM falls into the later.[/quote']

 

"Can't walk" is limiting when your character would need to walk. Code vs Killing is limiting when the character must pull punches to avoid risk of killing his targets. When is NCM more limiting than simply not having purchased characteristics above the maximum?

[Katherine]

Re: Expanding Normal Characteristic Maxima

 

So why isn't there a disadvantage for any subset of abilities costing double? "Mental powers cost double" is a disadvantage as much as "characteristics over these limits cost double".

 

There's no reason there couldn't be it just hadn't been thought or implemented. It seems like a reasonable Physical Disadvantage to me.