Social System

[Sean Waters]

There's a thread running at present about this and it has turned into a pros and cons thread, so I thought I'd start this as a specific system thread - to see if we can come up with something that addresses the valid concerns that many have about such a system.

 

Please don't post here about whether such a system should exist at all, but any suggestions as to why a implementation of the system is good or bad are welcome.

 

First off is the basic mechanic, and the obvious one is a 3d6 roll, but that is certainly not the only option. We could have a 'damage' based system (xd6 v some sort of defence or ablative total), or something outside the usual Hero paradigm, some sort of bidding system.

 

I'm going to ask that we do not explore the possibilities of a pure role play because, while that is always an option for those who prefer that approach, but doesn't really allow for a structured system in the same way - I think we need some 'independent random factor' - but if you can think of a role played structured system, I'd like to hear about it.

 

So, to kick off, I'm going to suggest that we use a skill based system, based on PRE/5+9 and appropriate skills as the core of such a system.

 

Any thoughts?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Social System

 

One of the things I've used is a Q&A style system.

 

The player can request to get certain information - how they intended to get it determines the skill involved; from brow beating (Interrogation or Persuasion), to fast talking (Conversation), to buddying up (Seduction), or other methods.

 

As they go more information based on the success of rolls - and/or role play elements - they can get more detailed or get different pieces to question or investigate.

 

It prevents the social scene from devolving into Single Roll Does It All and/or The Player With Talking Skills Does It All.

 

While it's important to let the player who can RP really well get information, possibly either straight up or as bonuses to rolls - sometimes another Player who has no social graces or skills wants to play the fast talker or face man - or possibly the GM just isn't all that up to it himself - wants in on the action.

 

Starting simple, with small requests at a time, and changing attitudes based on success level can also add a certain tension to the game as the target cooperates, refuses to talk, or divulges little bits at a time through the process.

 

It's certainly more interesting than "what can I get out of him? I made my roll by 4" and the GM then monologues the answers. Of course, sometimes that's exactly all you want out of a scene so keeping the dice on hand for that single roll is good to.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Social System

 

Shelley Chrystal Mactyre has been developing a new HERO "social conflict" mechanic for her long-awaited Regency HERO sourcebook: Reputation Points.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Social System

 

The player can request to get certain information - how they intended to get it determines the skill involved; from brow beating (Interrogation or Persuasion), to fast talking (Conversation), to buddying up (Seduction), or other methods.

 

As they go more information based on the success of rolls - and/or role play elements - they can get more detailed or get different pieces to question or investigate.

 

This is a lot like the, "skill challenge" mechanic from 4e D&D. It's good when you want more depth than a single die roll.

[Vulcan]

Re: Social System

 

Shelley Chrystal Mactyre has been developing a new HERO "social conflict" mechanic for her long-awaited Regency HERO sourcebook: Reputation Points.

 

That is a quite interesting system. Not sure how one would go about generalizing it for all genres, but it is thought-provoking. And since it is first and foremost based on the player roleplaying his character, I actually kinda like it!

 

However, I would point out that it is not a 'new' Social Conflcit mechanic, it is an adjunct to the existing Interaction Skill System.

[Utech]

Re: Social System

 

The simplest system to understand -- though not implement -- would be to run Social Combat using precisely the same mechanics and rules you use for Physical Combat.

 

When you make a character, make two sheets. One is for Physical Combat, the other for Social Combat. You have access to all the Powers, Skills, etc. for both sheets (limited by campaign guidelines, of course). Apply appropriate sfx and you are ready to roll.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Social System

 

That is a quite interesting system. Not sure how one would go about generalizing it for all genres' date=' but it is thought-provoking. And since it is [i']first and foremost[/i] based on the player roleplaying his character, I actually kinda like it!

 

However, I would point out that it is not a 'new' Social Conflcit mechanic, it is an adjunct to the existing Interaction Skill System.

 

Well, AFAIK Fifth Edition doesn't currently include another codified method for acquiring points that can be used to affect Interaction Skill rolls. I suppose it depends on how you define "mechanic."

[sinanju]

Re: Social System

 

If you're going to use a mechanical system, I think it should definitely make use of the character's disadvantages. Psychs (and Enrageds) in particular would be frequently used. Maybe give the character a +1 to +3 (or a -1 to -3) for the level of the disad (normal, strong or total commitment psychs, for instance) to whatever skill rolls they make.

 

So Rogue Cop (Rep: Brutal & Sadistic, Extreme) gets bonuses to interrogation. If the subject is Cowardly, he gets minuses to resist; if he's a tough guy, or has Code: Never Talk he gets bonuses. Depending on the situation and characters involved, the characters' respective disads could swing things strongly one way or the other...or be a wash.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Social System

 

So, to kick off, I'm going to suggest that we use a skill based system, based on PRE/5+9 and appropriate skills as the core of such a system.

 

Any thoughts?

 

 

Hmm. You want us to talk mechanics? Fantastic!

 

Beyond skills both COM and EGO could be core to the system as would social disads. How would you envisage the use of added characteristics and disads? Modifiers as appropriate?

 

And why PRE/5+9? Why not PRE/3??

 

I quite like the idea of 10 as a target number, just like physical combat. If you roll over 10 on 3D6 you succeed. Everything else modifies. If modifiers take the target number to 18 or above then there is no chance of succeeding; if they take it to 3 or below then it is an automatic success.

 

The question may be degrees of success - I think there has to be degrees of success but I don't like the 'damage' system. I would prefer it was either co-option of another mechanic - like adding disads through an aid/drain style mechanic or degrees of success guidance as in PRE attacks.

 

Doc

[Vulcan]

Re: Social System

 

Well' date=' AFAIK Fifth Edition doesn't currently include another codified method for acquiring points that can be used to affect Interaction Skill rolls. I suppose it depends on how you define "mechanic." [/quote']

 

No, but the core of her rules is still the 5E Interaction Skills. She formalized a set of modifiers to encourage appropriate roleplaying for the setting - something most GM's do on the fly instead.

[Vulcan]

Re: Social System

 

The simplest system to understand -- though not implement -- would be to run Social Combat using precisely the same mechanics and rules you use for Physical Combat.

 

When you make a character, make two sheets. One is for Physical Combat, the other for Social Combat. You have access to all the Powers, Skills, etc. for both sheets (limited by campaign guidelines, of course). Apply appropriate sfx and you are ready to roll.

 

I think that would be incredibly cumbersome and make roleplaying take just as long as combat - it would really bog down the game, in my opinion.

 

YMMV, of course.

[Vondy]

Re: Social System

 

Hmm. You want us to talk mechanics? Fantastic!

 

Beyond skills both COM and EGO could be core to the system as would social disads. How would you envisage the use of added characteristics and disads? Modifiers as appropriate?

 

And why PRE/5+9? Why not PRE/3??

 

I quite like the idea of 10 as a target number, just like physical combat. If you roll over 10 on 3D6 you succeed. Everything else modifies. If modifiers take the target number to 18 or above then there is no chance of succeeding; if they take it to 3 or below then it is an automatic success.

 

The question may be degrees of success - I think there has to be degrees of success but I don't like the 'damage' system. I would prefer it was either co-option of another mechanic - like adding disads through an aid/drain style mechanic or degrees of success guidance as in PRE attacks.

 

Doc

 

Without addressing the idea of adding Presence Combat Value (PCV) to the system:

 

You could have three levels of effect that roughly mirror the three levels of effect for mental powers. However, instead of using scads of dice you use a combination of MoS and Pass/Fail on the rolls to determine the level of effect achieved. This could be adjudicated quickly with a little chart. If you want it to occur in stages you could require one roll to progress through each level, or you could require a combination of a high MoS and a failure on the part of the target to achieve more than one level of success with a single roll. This system would allow for some sort of breakout roll. It would also allow for modifiers that would flow from disads, established character traits, circumstance, relevant in-character knowledge, previous successes and failures between those in the contest, and the like. Resistance with appropriate FX would apply to the target's rolls. You might include a meta-rule: a failure to initially achieve a level of effect, or a clear breakout roll means no further attempts will succeed for this scene (or whatever seems dramatically apropos). For outlandish effects or effects that go heavily against the grain of the target you could require a really high skill roll (say 18+) and/or apply heavy penalties. For an example look at the seduction modifier in TUS. "Dream On" comes in at -8. The real issue here is getting GM/Player consensus on what modifiers are apropos for this character in this situation. There are a number of ways to approach this, but its a separate discussion.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Social System

 

Whilst walking the dog (I do a lot of my thinking while walking the dog) I was pondering how I'd do a social system, and I started thinking about how to cover all the bases: a system that allows for quite extreme results, like getting someone to commit murder, but doesn't force PCs to such extreme acts against their player's will - but still allows for PCs to be influenced by social skills.

 

I thought about social combat, but I'm always a bit concerned about that: it is an attractive idea but it does make for some potentially odd results, if it is analagous: a gang of you is better at seduction than just one? Also how do you model the normals in th eworld in such a way that they do not automatically cave in to anyone with a decent PRE?

 

So, what I thought I'd do is change everything

 

I've just finished writing it out. The trait system came from thinking about the seven deadly sins, and the rest of it is actually mor of a streamlining of the existing system: I'm down to 4 social skills

 

It does all come down to a roll at the end of the day, but:

 

1. There is plenty of room for role playing to modify the roll

2. Even a social combat system is just a more complicated way of making what is essentially a binary decision (and you could probably analyse any physical or social combat and give approximate odds anyway - i.e. convert an entire combat into a single success or faiure roll)

3. It's easier

 

Anyway, here it is, and I've added an attachment of it in .pdf form.

 

OK, so here is a social system for Hero. Let’s get rid of the current Hero social skills, shall we? Then we’ll need something to replace them with...there is a lot here but it should be straightforward to administer in practice.

Social Skills

Social skills provide certain ‘abilities’ and ALSO the ability to resist those skills when used against you. The skills cost 3/2 OR you can buy them simply to resist the ability at 2/1. All the skills are PRE based but you can substitute INT for Argument or Distraction or COM for Distraction or Socialise. You can also buy skill levels at 1 point for limited purposes: for instance if you want to be a femme fatale, you can take +4 Seduction levels, which then apply to any social skill where you are able to use that approach – usually Socialise and Distraction, but possibly also some Persuasion attempts (let’s get a room...). Rarely will they be relevant to a use of Argument skill.

Argument – getting someone to agree with a proposition. If the proposition is false then you take at least -2 on your roll.

Distraction – causing someone to remain engaged with you

Persuasion – getting someone to agree to do something

Socialise – causing someone to enjoy your company

NB I refer to ability level below. That is CHAR/5+skill levels.

Other Skills

These are effectively information gathering skills which can assist you in understanding other characters’ personality and motivations.

Sympathy – the ability to understand what someone else is feeling

Empathy – the ability to feel what someone else is feeling

Specialisations

Pick one for free (usually ‘personal’ and buy others at 2 points each if you do not have an appropriate specialisation you take a -3 on the skill attempt. You can create new specialisations if you wish.)

 

Personal

Public

Command

Sales

Intimidation

Bureaucracy

 

Personality traits

(4 levels as a disadvantage: mild, moderate, strong or total – 5/10/15/20)

This is a new and separate category of disadvantage. You can take as many traits as you like. You shouldn’t add new ones as it is best to have a relatively limited list. If you want another aspect of personality use a Psychological Limitation – see below.

 

‘Positive’ traits

Compassion

Loyalty

Love

Mercy

Humour

Gravity

Justice

Sacrifice

‘Negative’ traits

Greed

Gluttony

Envy

Pride

Anger

Lust

Sloth

Fear

 

Preferences and Prejudices

You can take one or more disadvantages, which form a separate category of disadvantage, which indicate your preferences and prejudices. Each one is worth 1 point, and you can have as many as you like. If a preference or prejudice applies to a social skill attempt against you then the attempt gets a +2 bonus or a -2 penalty as appropriate. If it applies to a social skill attempt you are making then that attempt gets a +1 bonus or -1 penalty as appropriate. You should note whether the preference or prejudice relates to INT or COM based skills: for instance if you prefer redheads (COM) then they get a +2 bonus when using distraction or socialise, and you get a +1 bonus when using those skills against a blonde – but your preference is based on COM so it has no effect on the use of the argument social skill. You should not take contradictory preferences and prejudices and generally should not take more than one preference or prejudice in a particular category, for instance if you prefer blondes then you wouldn’t normally also prefer redheads.

Other Disadvantages

You can also use the Psychological Limitation category to create aspects of personality. Each level of intensity acts as a bonus to social skill rolls against you of +2:

Psychological Limitation: Follows orders - anyone using the Command specialisation gets a +4 on their rolls (Common – assuming in an organisation where you are given orders, strong) 15 points

Psychological Limitation: Lonely – anyone using distraction or socialise gets a +2 on their rolls (common, moderate) 10 points

Using the system

When you create a character there is another category of disadvantage you can buy. You take as many traits as you like at whatever intensity you like. Each intensity gives you a vulnerability to that kind of approach, and if someone uses it against you then they get a +2 bonus on their roll. For example if you have a Strong Mercy Trait, someone trying to persuade you to do something and appealing to your mercy gets +6 on their roll – and you will do things in the name of mercy that someone without a Mercy trait would not do. You do not have to take any traits at all, but I’d strongly encourage it.

Pick an appropriate social skill, there are only four of them, but they cover a wide range of situations. If you do not have any social skills you can make a PRE, INT or COM roll (as you would for the skill) but at -3.

The GM will decide if the situation requires a specialisation – there are a few examples given and you can create new ones too, for example you might have a ‘teaching’ or ‘performance’ specialisation. If you do not have a specialisation that fits the situation then you perform the skill check at -3.

Decide if a trait applies. There are a couple of skills that help you to understand what traits others may have: sympathy (which is INT based) and Empathy (which is PRE based). You need to engage someone socially (usually with a distraction or persuasion attempt, and then make a sympathy or empathy roll. A successful sympathy roll tells you something of interest about the character’s personality. Each point you make the roll by gives you knowledge of one of the target’s traits – not the intensity, just the name OR some idea of what sort of threat or incentive might work for this person. A target can resist the use of sympathy with their own sympathy or empathy ability level, which acts as a straight penalty to your roll. You do not get false information.

Empathy is similar, can be more useful – but is also more risky. First it can only be resisted with empathy, not sympathy. Second a successful use will give you both the trait and intensity. However, because you feel what the target feels, for the rest of the scene you are treated as if you have the same trait at the ‘mild’ level.

Whenever you engage someone with a social skill they may use their own social skills to resist. This does not apply as a penalty to your roll. Instead, you make your roll and declare how much you made it by. If you did not make it by at least the opponent’s ability level then the attempt fails but...you do not know it failed, so the opponent may appear to go along with you but is not actually convinced. Of course if you fail the roll then you KNOW you can not necessarily trust what they tell you or do, but this adds a little uncertainty, even to apparent success.

Getting someone to do/believe/agree with something that works with a disadvantage +2 per level of intensity

Getting someone to do/believe/agree with something they are inclined to do anyway: +2 on skill roll

Getting someone to do/believe/agree with something they are indifferent to: +0 on skill roll

Getting someone to do/believe/agree with something they don’t want to do or that will cause them some inconvenience: -2 on skill roll. The attempt will be at -4 unless you engage a trait that the target has.

Getting someone to do/believe/agree with something they are opposed to doing or that will cause them a real problem: -4 on skill roll. The attempt will be at -8 unless you engage a trait that the target has.

Getting someone to do/believe/agree with something they strongly disagree with, or that will have dire consequences for them: -8 on skill roll. The attempt will automatically fail unless you engage a trait that the target has.

Getting someone to do/believe/agree with something that works against a disadvantage -2 per level of intensity

Incentives: +1 to +4

Threats: +1 to +4

The GM can always consider other situational modifiers too, for instance a penalty might be imposed for repeat attempts, or someone might be rushing to work and so much less willing to become distracted or to socialise.

The GM can always rule that there are certain things that someone simply will not do, but that should be rare – almost anyone can be made to do almost anything if the right pressures are applied, and can set an appropriate base time for any attempt at a social skill – getting someone to do something they are strongly opposed to doing is likely to require preparatory steps and extra base time. Obviously if you have an appropriate trait then that can change the position considerably.

Argument and persuasion usually take at least a minute and you may well get a bonus of +2 for each step up the time chart you take, although you won’t always have the time. Using them in a single turn takes a -2 penalty and using them in a single phase takes a -4 penalty and may not be possible at all – a phase, or even a turn may not be long enough to convey an idea. An extended attempt does not have to be continuous – you can go away and come back: taking a month to persuade someone of something would get mighty tiring for both of you if you didn’t. Mind you, taking your time is an art in itself. You have to make a Distraction roll at every time slot to keep someone engaged for more than a minute.

Distraction and socialise go on as long as you need them to, but the base time is a minute. You get a +4 to use Distraction for a phase, and a +2 for a turn, but take -2 per step up the time chart. Keeping someone distracted for a full day can be tricky. Generally socialise does not get time bonuses or penalties, but is very situational: if someone has an appointment to get to they might leave even though they are enjoying your company. The GM might let you make a Socialise complementary roll to a Distraction attempt – if someone is enjoying your company it is easier to keep them engaged.

You should be able to do anything Hero can currently do with this system. So, for instance, what is now the Oratory skill becomes Argument or Persuasion with the Public specialisation. Bribery becomes a Distraction roll followed by an Empathy or Sympathy attempt, and the knowledge thus gained is then used as a bonus to a Persuasion roll. Seduction becomes a socialise roll with the Personal specialisation, possibly with a Persuasion roll later. Bureaucratics becomes a Persuasion or Argument roll with the Bureaucracy specialisation.

Opposed Rolls

Sometimes the players might want to distract a guard, for example. The guard can either use his own skills to resist or it might be more appropriate to use the skills of the commander who put him on guard duty: make a roll for that person against the guard (who may well, for instance, be psychologically inclined to obey orders) and the player has to beat that roll to succeed. Of course this is quite amenable to approach: whilst the guard may be difficult to distract or socialise with whilst on duty you could perhaps use a social skill which doesn’t directly conflict with orders: perhaps an Argument roll to convince the guard that you have new orders from his commander. Of course, unless it appears possible that you have such orders then it is unlikely he will accept what you say.

REALLY IMPORTANT BIT – not every social situation requires a roll: if the target is already going to do what you are suggesting, no roll is necessary: you don’t have to roll to convince someone it is raining when they are standing in a downpour.

REALLY, REALLY IMPORTANT BIT – be creative. Even if you have sunk a lot of points into Persuasion that may not always be the best way to tackle a problem, and the GM should carefully police skill boundary spread. You can not use Persuade to get someone to enjoy your company, or accept a proposition or even to remain engaged with you, even though Persuade allows you to get people to do stuff – not that stuff! Also remember that sometimes for a social skill to work you need to set it up: If you want to get the girl to go out to dinner with you then you’ll get bonuses if you’ve smartened yourself up and bought her flowers.

MOST IMPORTANT BIT – have fun – it is only a game.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Social System

 

That's an amazingly interesting system. I wish I had a game I could fully thrash it about with to see how it plays out.

--and I'm unable to REP you for it... drat--

 

You know, you should have thrown your ideas (even the ones I think you're a crackpot over) into the 6E Forums, they're well presented. Ah well.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Social System

 

That's an amazingly interesting system. I wish I had a game I could fully thrash it about with to see how it plays out.

--and I'm unable to REP you for it... drat--

 

You know, you should have thrown your ideas (even the ones I think you're a crackpot over) into the 6E Forums, they're well presented. Ah well.

 

Thank you. I just might post this one in 6E - it kinda grabbed me and I had to run with it. I must have a trait...

[ghost-angel]

Re: Social System

 

Sadly - this one missed the deadline. . .

[Sean Waters]

Re: Social System

 

Sadly - this one missed the deadline. . .

 

- I just went over there and noticed they were all locked.

 

Maybe 7th

[Vulcan]

Re: Social System

 

That's a really nice, well-thought-out system. Not sure I'd enjoy playing it, but I have been wrong about such things before.

 

At any rate, nice job, Sean! Have some rep.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Social System

 

That's an amazingly interesting system. I wish I had a game I could fully thrash it about with to see how it plays out.

--and I'm unable to REP you for it... drat--

 

I got him.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Social System

 

Pretty cool Sean and like I said, I get nervous when you disappear for a while - tension builds up...

 

I thought about social combat' date=' but I'm always a bit concerned about that: it is an attractive idea but it does make for some potentially odd results, if it is analagous: a gang of you is better at seduction than just one? Also how do you model the normals in th eworld in such a way that they do not automatically cave in to anyone with a decent PRE?[/quote']

 

Well, group persuasion is a feature of real life - peer group pressure and mob mantality are well known.

 

I like the feature in Deadlands where the GM can set a baseline of fear that everything else relates to - at high fear levels the really bad critters are a bit more effective in scaring people. Your system might benefit from a context modifier. Seducing a nun might be completey impossible within a normal context or within a holy milieu. Change that to a dreamlike situation where the world is being turned upside down (for whatever reason) and the task may become feasible (nuns are human you know - not ultimate paragons of virtue).

 

 

So' date=' what I thought I'd do is change everything [/quote']

 

Are you retaining PRE and PRE attacks?

 

 

It does all come down to a roll at the end of the day, but:

 

1. There is plenty of room for role playing to modify the roll

2. Even a social combat system is just a more complicated way of making what is essentially a binary decision (and you could probably analyse any physical or social combat and give approximate odds anyway - i.e. convert an entire combat into a single success or faiure roll)

3. It's easier

 

You might also want to think about a quick resolution as well for when you dont want to run throughthe whole system.

 

Might also be worth thinking closely about the effects of long term preparation. If you work hard on a seduction then you prepare in advance - good first and second dates make a big difference to a seduction attempt on the third date. Maybe that ties in with the context idea where early rolls are about changing context rather than achieving the main end. Obviously trying to rush changes of context might work against you so perhaps you set time scales for base - quicker intervals give penalties, longer ones give bonuses.

 

Anyway' date=' here it is, and I've added an attachment of it in .pdf form.[/quote']

 

Beyond that I would like to try this out...

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: Social System

 

................

 

I like the feature in Deadlands where the GM can set a baseline of fear that everything else relates to - at high fear levels the really bad critters are a bit more effective in scaring people. Your system might benefit from a context modifier. Seducing a nun might be completey impossible within a normal context or within a holy milieu. Change that to a dreamlike situation where the world is being turned upside down (for whatever reason) and the task may become feasible (nuns are human you know - not ultimate paragons of virtue).

 

 

...............................

 

You might also want to think about a quick resolution as well for when you dont want to run throughthe whole system.

 

Might also be worth thinking closely about the effects of long term preparation. If you work hard on a seduction then you prepare in advance - good first and second dates make a big difference to a seduction attempt on the third date. Maybe that ties in with the context idea where early rolls are about changing context rather than achieving the main end. Obviously trying to rush changes of context might work against you so perhaps you set time scales for base - quicker intervals give penalties, longer ones give bonuses.

 

 

 

Beyond that I would like to try this out...

 

Doc

 

Thank you for your comments, Doc. I'll see how the idea works with some of the things you mention...

 

Nun Seduction ():

 

You can make a straight roll to seduce Sister Sabela.

 

You would use Persuade, as you do not want to simply have her enjoy your company, but you want to enjoy hers (euphemistically).

 

That is a PRE based roll. Say you are pretty charming and have a 15 PRE, and you have the 'personal' specialisation as default, so the base roll is 12-.

 

You march up and use the immortal line, "I'd like to see your dirtiest habit!"

 

Now, let's see how that works...

 

Sister Sabela has various positive traits: Compassion, Loyalty, Mercy and Sacrifice, all at the Moderate level, but she also suffers from Pride at a moderate level.

The GM could decide that there is simply no way Sister Sabela would have sex with you, but is in a generous mood, and says instead that is something that she is opposed to doing/will cause them a real problem. You have not engaged a trait that she has so your roll is at -8.

You have not even spent the statutory minute chatting her up, so your roll is at a further -4.

Sister Sabela has the trait of Loyalty and that is specifically to the Church and her God, so she takes her vow of chastity very seriously. As the trait is moderate that is an additional -4 to the roll.

We are at -16 and counting. Personally I’d rule that if you go below a 3- chance then you can not succeed: don’t allow a natural 3 to succeed automatically. We have not even got into modifiers about the fact that she doesn’t know you, or have any feelings for you.

The only reason she doesn’t give you a slap is because it is not in her nature.

OK, now we take a bit more time and effort over the attempt...

1. INTRODUCTION You want to become known to Sister Sabela, and you want her to have a positive attitude toward you. You make up a pretext to talk to her. First off you need a reason to talk to her at all, so you start going to church and make sure you say hello whenever you can. You might spend a month on that, although if you want to rush things it could be as little as a single service. She is a Nun, so you decide you will ask if there are any local charities as you have some time to donate. You could chat to others in the church and find out about her, if she runs the soup kitchen, or a discussion group. You can research the tenets of faith. This will all involve various background, research or social interaction rolls. For instance you might engage a church member (socialise skill) and get them to tell you about Sister Sabela, but without them realising she is the point of the conversation (Persuade at -2). You could even talk to her directly, but that might backfire.

2. APPROACH You know a bit about her now so it is time to talk to her directly. This is when you will be using your Empathy or Sympathy skills to see if any guesses you may have been able to make about her traits (or ‘hot buttons’ as you insist on calling them) are accurate.

3. STRATEGY To work on her you need to spend time with her, so a round of socialise and distraction rolls is probably in order. Now you need to apply a strategy to reel her in. Perhaps you work on her pride, convincing her that, even if she were to encounter temptation she would be too strong for it, opening the possibility of getting close to temptation just to see. This time her trait is working for you. Perhaps you want to work on a sob story – you might have some terminal but non-contagious disease and she look so much like your dead wife, who you miss so terribly, and what with her gone and the illness you are seriously contemplating suicide....that should engage her compassion and possibly sacrifice traits. Loyalty to the church and her vows is going to be a toughy, so some sort of theological argument about whether giving in to the pleasures of the flesh is really that much of a sin (argument rolls).

4. DENOUMENT Arrange a starry night, a bottle of communion wine and, perhaps a failed suicide attempt...it could all backfire at any moment with a bad roll or two, but it just might work...

The thing is you can make a social effects system a single roll, if you really don’t want to be bothered (I spend three months working on Sister Sabela...what do I have to roll) OR you could go through a whole series of rolls each possibly gaining a little ground, or losing it (and bear in mind that Sister Sabela might have her own agenda too – she’s pretty empathic...) OR you could role play it. But frankly if you want to role play seducing a nun you should probably be calling a premium rate telephone number not playing Hero J

Looking at it there is a bit too much overlap on the positive traits, and I’d welcome suggestions as to alternatives, although I am keen to keep the number relatively manageable – otherwise it will be difficult to engage a trait if they get too obscure.

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Social System

 

Thank you for your comments, Doc. I'll see how the idea works with some of the things you mention...

 

Nun Seduction ():

 

You can make a straight roll to seduce Sister Sabela.

 

You would use Persuade, as you do not want to simply have her enjoy your company, but you want to enjoy hers (euphemistically).

 

That is a PRE based roll. Say you are pretty charming and have a 15 PRE, and you have the 'personal' specialisation as default, so the base roll is 12-.

 

You march up and use the immortal line, "I'd like to see your dirtiest habit!"

 

Now, let's see how that works...

 

Sister Sabela has various positive traits: Compassion, Loyalty, Mercy and Sacrifice, all at the Moderate level, but she also suffers from Pride at a moderate level.

The GM could decide that there is simply no way Sister Sabela would have sex with you, but is in a generous mood, and says instead that is something that she is opposed to doing/will cause them a real problem. You have not engaged a trait that she has so your roll is at -8.

You have not even spent the statutory minute chatting her up, so your roll is at a further -4.

Sister Sabela has the trait of Loyalty and that is specifically to the Church and her God, so she takes her vow of chastity very seriously. As the trait is moderate that is an additional -4 to the roll.

We are at -16 and counting. Personally I’d rule that if you go below a 3- chance then you can not succeed: don’t allow a natural 3 to succeed automatically. We have not even got into modifiers about the fact that she doesn’t know you, or have any feelings for you.

 

Whether the number is 2-, 0- or something else, I agree with there being a point at which success (and, at the other extreme, failure) is simply not possible. This situation seems well past that point - and rightly so.

 

Having a social conflict resolution system does not mean that tasks aren't at various levels of difficulty, and charming Sister Isabella into a quickie in the cloak room during Sunday Mass is at a level of difficulty similar to shooting a single fly off the back of a pig with a handgun from 500 meters away.

 

The only reason she doesn’t give you a slap is because it is not in her nature.

OK, now we take a bit more time and effort over the attempt...

 

And expect a hefty penalty every time you interact with the Sister in future. So let's assume you were a bit more subtle than popping into church, sitting next to the girl in the penguin dress and interrupting her prayer with "Hey baby, howsabout you and me slip out to the cloakroom and dance the horizontal tango? C'mon, I'll give you a real religious experience you'll never forget!"

 

1. INTRODUCTION You want to become known to Sister Sabela' date=' and you want her to have a positive attitude toward you. You make up a pretext to talk to her. First off you need a reason to talk to her at all, so you start going to church and make sure you say hello whenever you can. You might spend a month on that, although if you want to rush things it could be as little as a single service. She is a Nun, so you decide you will ask if there are any local charities as you have some time to donate. You could chat to others in the church and find out about her, if she runs the soup kitchen, or a discussion group. You can research the tenets of faith. This will all involve various background, research or social interaction rolls. For instance you might engage a church member (socialise skill) and get them to tell you about Sister Sabela, but without them realising she is the point of the conversation (Persuade at -2). You could even talk to her directly, but that might backfire.[/font']

2. APPROACH You know a bit about her now so it is time to talk to her directly. This is when you will be using your Empathy or Sympathy skills to see if any guesses you may have been able to make about her traits (or ‘hot buttons’ as you insist on calling them) are accurate.

3. STRATEGY To work on her you need to spend time with her, so a round of socialise and distraction rolls is probably in order. Now you need to apply a strategy to reel her in. Perhaps you work on her pride, convincing her that, even if she were to encounter temptation she would be too strong for it, opening the possibility of getting close to temptation just to see. This time her trait is working for you. Perhaps you want to work on a sob story – you might have some terminal but non-contagious disease and she look so much like your dead wife, who you miss so terribly, and what with her gone and the illness you are seriously contemplating suicide....that should engage her compassion and possibly sacrifice traits. Loyalty to the church and her vows is going to be a toughy, so some sort of theological argument about whether giving in to the pleasures of the flesh is really that much of a sin (argument rolls).

4. DENOUMENT Arrange a starry night, a bottle of communion wine and, perhaps a failed suicide attempt...it could all backfire at any moment with a bad roll or two, but it just might work...

The thing is you can make a social effects system a single roll, if you really don’t want to be bothered (I spend three months working on Sister Sabela...what do I have to roll) OR you could go through a whole series of rolls each possibly gaining a little ground, or losing it (and bear in mind that Sister Sabela might have her own agenda too – she’s pretty empathic...) OR you could role play it. But frankly if you want to role play seducing a nun you should probably be calling a premium rate telephone number not playing Hero J

 

And let's recognize that, while charming Sister I into a quick romp on the altar during Sunday Service isn't likely gonna happen, the statement "She is a nun and therefore it is utterly impossible to ever persuade her to violate her vow of chastity under any circumstances" is no more cinematic or realistic - all we've done is move from one extreme to the other.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Social System

 

Whether the number is 2-, 0- or something else, I agree with there being a point at which success (and, at the other extreme, failure) is simply not possible. This situation seems well past that point - and rightly so.

 

Having a social conflict resolution system does not mean that tasks aren't at various levels of difficulty, and charming Sister Isabella into a quickie in the cloak room during Sunday Mass is at a level of difficulty similar to shooting a single fly off the back of a pig with a handgun from 500 meters away.

 

 

 

And expect a hefty penalty every time you interact with the Sister in future. So let's assume you were a bit more subtle than popping into church, sitting next to the girl in the penguin dress and interrupting her prayer with "Hey baby, howsabout you and me slip out to the cloakroom and dance the horizontal tango? C'mon, I'll give you a real religious experience you'll never forget!"

 

 

 

And let's recognize that, while charming Sister I into a quick romp on the altar during Sunday Service isn't likely gonna happen, the statement "She is a nun and therefore it is utterly impossible to ever persuade her to violate her vow of chastity under any circumstances" is no more cinematic or realistic - all we've done is move from one extreme to the other.

 

I do admit to a certain amount of tongue in cheekness about running with the example In most cases I quite agree that the attempt will simply fail (although there's no reason to tell the player that...) but I would suggest that context is vital, for a start - if you're doing an Austin Powers type game then nun seduction is probably entirely appropriate, baby.

 

More importantly though, and of much more general applicability is the simple point that not all nuns are alike. Whilst we can expect an average nun to be very serious about her vows and not to entertain such an idea, there are always exceptions to every rule, each person has their own personality, strengths and weaknesses. Some might see a convent as a welcome retreat from the world of sexual politics, whilst others might be regretting their decision to take Holy Orders and be looking for a way out.

 

Then you might have a much darker world: I was always impressed by the Queensryche album 'Operation Mindcrime' - lyrics for 'Spreading the Disease'.

 

One advantage of a system of personality and 'trait' building as a way of defining a character and what they might or might not do is that it gets you thinking about the motivations behind various actions people take. Despite the identical penguin suit exteriors, underneath, not all nuns are equal, which is the serious point behind the rather silly example.

[Vondy]

Re: Social System

 

I went to look this up in The Ultimate Skill. It mentions the seducing a nun example (incidentally). If you read page 64-67 you'll find a discussion of options for interaction skills, which discusses 1) making effects equate to mind control levels, and 2) a chart with target MoS for various kinds of effect. If you use this chart in conjunction with the exceptional skill rules and the various modifer tables in the skill write ups you have an optional system in place already. To run with Sean's Nun example: At an MoS of 10 you are assumed to have made a critical success and can overcome what amounts to total psychological limitations or what would amount to out of character results. Indeed, the more outlandish effects become problematic (for the one making the attempt), especially if you're forced into an opposed contest over it. For instance, Don Juan has a Seduction skill of 20-. He decides to seduce Sister Sarah who has Very Devout (Common, Total) - as opposed to a nun fighting her passions, for instance (Bonus?). He must achieve an MoS of 10, which with a straight roll of 20- would mean a roll of 10-. Not bad, except Sister Sarah would constitute "Dream On" on the Seduction modifer chart which imposes a penalty of -8. Don Juan now needs to roll 2- on 3d6 to pull it off. The GM can either say "impossible" or allow it on roll of "3" if he uses such a rule. Insofar as the players feel they can trust the gamemaster's judgement in terms of mods (and just common sense about what will and fly with the players in question - the "should" rather than "can") I don't have firm objections to such rules being used on player characters. I do think, however, it should remain optional rather than being the system default.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Social System

 

Unless you are running a comedy campaign and several PCs are running a nun seduction pool, reducing this all to a single roll, rather than a series of steps tends to rob the whole thing of the drama which would be the only point of doing something like this in the first place.

 

I don't think that any social skill should ever be as instant as mind control: they are different beasts. You can buy mind control on an activation roll or with RSR if that is what you want, but if you buy Persuasion on 34 or less, you don't just snap your fingers and have people fall into bed with you.

 

Unless it s a comedy campaign.