To gun fu or not gun fu?

[GoldenAge]

Okay... Up until this point I've been against allowing ranged martial arts into Epic City (my longstanding superhero campaign). Right or wrong I've been a proponent of "build the power" you want instead of utilizing martial arts at range.

 

Well, I've changed my mind and have decided to (tentatively) allow a PC to try out gun fu in Epic City.

 

So, can those of you who have adopted gun fu into your campaigns (as GMs or players) help me with this decision by a little pro and con conversation?

 

Also, I was hoping to review some characters that were made with ranged martial arts (Gun Fu/Gun Kata). Can anyone link me to some preexisting write-ups of practitioners of gun fu?

 

Thanks all!

[AlHazred]

Re: To gun fu or not gun fu?

 

I've been in campaigns where the GM adamantly didn't allow ranged martial arts. And I've been in campaigns where the GM didn't allow any martial arts at all. Really, MA is a tool to reflect a certain kind of fighting, one with a few more options. In other RPGs (one that recently entered its 4th edition springs to mind) there seems to be a, I don't know, fear of allowing characters to be as effective at range as they are hand-to-hand. Which is groundless.

 

Let me ask you this, what if I created a character who could send his hands through 4th dimensional space to pummel the enemy at range. Would that be acceptable? It's basically a form of Stretching. Now what if I have Martial Arts? Can I use them at range? I can see arguments both for ("Why not? Your hands are deadly weapons!") and against ("Martial Arts are precision maneuvers, and you can't see well enough to land the right blows.") but what it comes down to is simply, do you want them to be that powerful or not?

 

For the most part, all the MA do is add a few DCs (up to 4) and increase the maximum OCV and DCV your PCs are capable of; if you use hard caps for all three qualities, then whether the PCs got them by taking MA or buying the powers/skills directly is moot. The MA don't usually end up being that much of a cheaper alternative unless you allow limitations on them, which I counsel against.

 

The only problematic options are Ranged Disarm and Ranged Trip, but those are nonlethal attacks that can either take a ranged target out of sight/effectiveness, or be used at dramatic moments to thwart a villain whose about to get away with his plots by wielding the One Ring/sacrificing the virgin. In either case, it's easy enough to guard against these with a little forethought -- keep them in mind when designing your big final battles, and you'll be okay.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: To gun fu or not gun fu?

 

John Preston, Gammiton Cleric (Surbook's Stuff by Susano)

http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptationsmovie/asstd_movie/johnpreston.html

 

The Preacher (Surbook's Stuff by Susano)

http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptationsmovie/asstd_movie/preacher.html

 

Chow-Yun Fat (Surbook's Stuff by Susano)

http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptationsasianaction/chowyunfat.html

 

Roland Deschain -The Dark Tower (Surbook's Stuff by Susano)

http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptationsbook/dt/gunslinger.html

 

The Man With No Name - (a.k.a. Blondie, Joe, Manco) (Surbook's Stuff by Susano)

http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptationsmovie/asstd_movie/man.html

 

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

Gun-Kata Resources:

 

 

The Killer (Wanted! - Top Cow Productions)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanted_(comics)

 

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

Dark Champions: Heroes of Vengence

https://www.herogames.com/viewItem.htm?itemID=188242

 

Dark Champions: The Animated Series

https://www.herogames.com/viewItem.htm?itemID=194250

 

Hudson City: The Urban Abyss

https://www.herogames.com/viewItem.htm?itemID=191569

 

Predators

https://www.herogames.com/viewItem.htm?itemID=195686

 

 

 

<<>>

 

 

QM

[bubba smith]

Re: To gun fu or not gun fu?

 

what about a hero who uses a taser/ stun gun that shoots electrified corded darts would that be at range

[Peregrine]

Re: To gun fu or not gun fu?

 

I've been in campaigns where the GM adamantly didn't allow ranged martial arts. And I've been in campaigns where the GM didn't allow any martial arts at all. Really' date=' MA is a tool to reflect a certain kind of fighting, one with a few more options. In other RPGs (one that recently entered its 4th edition springs to mind) there seems to be a, I don't know, [b']fear[/b] of allowing characters to be as effective at range as they are hand-to-hand. Which is groundless.

 

Let me ask you this, what if I created a character who could send his hands through 4th dimensional space to pummel the enemy at range. Would that be acceptable? It's basically a form of Stretching. Now what if I have Martial Arts? Can I use them at range? I can see arguments both for ("Why not? Your hands are deadly weapons!") and against ("Martial Arts are precision maneuvers, and you can't see well enough to land the right blows.") but what it comes down to is simply, do you want them to be that powerful or not?

 

For the most part, all the MA do is add a few DCs (up to 4) and increase the maximum OCV and DCV your PCs are capable of; if you use hard caps for all three qualities, then whether the PCs got them by taking MA or buying the powers/skills directly is moot. The MA don't usually end up being that much of a cheaper alternative unless you allow limitations on them, which I counsel against.

 

The only problematic options are Ranged Disarm and Ranged Trip, but those are nonlethal attacks that can either take a ranged target out of sight/effectiveness, or be used at dramatic moments to thwart a villain whose about to get away with his plots by wielding the One Ring/sacrificing the virgin. In either case, it's easy enough to guard against these with a little forethought -- keep them in mind when designing your big final battles, and you'll be okay.

 

[tangent]

The problem with counting Martial Maneuver damage against a hard DC cap is that you can't Haymaker a Martial Maneuver. So unless you count all Maneuver damage, including Haymaker, against the DC cap, it isn't balanced to count Martial Maneuver damage against a DC cap.

 

Here's the head-to-head comparison of Haymaker with comparable Martial Maneuvers:

 

Maneuver           Phase  Cost  OCV  DCV  Rng   Effects
Haymaker            1/2*     0      +0    -5   --     +4 DC to [i]Any Attack[/i]
Offensive Strike    1/2       5      -2    +1   --     Strike + 4 DC
Sacrifice Strike     1/2       5      +1    -2   --     Strike + 4 DC
Offensive Shot      1/2      4       -1    -1   +0    Strike + 4 DC

*This Maneuver takes one extra Segment to perform

 

Granted, Haymaker is harder to land due to the extra Segment, and the Haymakering character is a -5 DCV - both are significant disadvantages. But Haymaker costs nothing; any character can Haymaker any attack except for other Maneuvers, including Martial Maneuvers. The three Martial Maneuvers listed, each of which provides the same additional DCs, cost 4-5 points each. While each is easier to land, lacking the one Segment delay of the Haymaker, as well as having less DCV penalty, etc., the character has paid for the benefits. Net effect: if you count Martial Maneuver damage against a hard DC cap, and not Standard and Optional Maneuver damage, then characters who use Martial Maneuvers cannot "break the cap" like characters who do not use Martial Maneuvers.

[AlHazred]

Re: To gun fu or not gun fu?

 

[tangent]

The problem with counting Martial Maneuver damage against a hard DC cap is that you can't Haymaker a Martial Maneuver. So unless you count all Maneuver damage, including Haymaker, against the DC cap, it isn't balanced to count Martial Maneuver damage against a DC cap.

I'm not sure I understand your objection. In my (admittedly limited) experience, Haymaker attacks land far, far less than any other kind of attack. So much so that my players do not usually use them. MA maneuvers, on the other hand, are very popular as you can get reliable bonuses that are relatively cheap.

 

To simulate a Haymaker, you could write:

 

10 Haymaker: Hand-To-Hand Attack +4d6; Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2), Extra Time (Extra Segment, -1/2)

 

Buying off the Extra Time limitation would be 3 points; buying a Martial Arts maneuver that was +0 OCV, -1 DCV, +4DC would be 5 points (IIRC). So, you're getting a better deal with the MA.

 

That example also shows one of the reasons I don't recommend limitations on MA.

[Peregrine]

Re: To gun fu or not gun fu?

 

I'm not sure I understand your objection. In my (admittedly limited) experience' date=' Haymaker attacks land [i']far, far[/i] less than any other kind of attack. So much so that my players do not usually use them. MA maneuvers, on the other hand, are very popular as you can get reliable bonuses that are relatively cheap.

 

To simulate a Haymaker, you could write:

 

10 Haymaker: Hand-To-Hand Attack +4d6; Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2), Extra Time (Extra Segment, -1/2)

 

Buying off the Extra Time limitation would be 3 points; buying a Martial Arts maneuver that was +0 OCV, -1 DCV, +4DC would be 5 points (IIRC). So, you're getting a better deal with the MA.

 

That example also shows one of the reasons I don't recommend limitations on MA.

 

The heart of my objection is this:

1. A character who is at the hard DC cap without Martial Maneuvers can exceed that cap using Standard Maneuvers, Haymaker in particular.

2. A character who is at the hard DC cap using Martial Maneuvers when the Martial Maneuver damage counts against the hard cap cannot exceed the hard cap under any circumstances.

 

As to "getting a better deal with the MA", that's a given. Any Martial Maneuver is cheaper than the equivalent power; the same goes for any Standard Maneuver.

 

For an apples-to-apples comparison, here's what HD says (BTW, you forgot the -5 DCV on your Haymaker power build):

 

Cost    Power
5       Haymaker: Hand-To-Hand Attack +4d6 (20 Active Points); 
Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (-5 DCV; -2), 
Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2), Extra Time (Extra Segment, -1/2)

10      High Damage Martial Maneuver: Hand-To-Hand Attack +4d6 (20 Active Points); 
Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (-1 DCV; -1/2),
Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2)

 

(I chose Extreme Side Effect for -5 DCV and Minor Side Effect for -1 DCV)

 

So every character effectively gets a 5 point power (Haymaker) for free; someone who purchases a 5 point Martial Maneuver effectively gets a 10 point power. Net result: the relevant Maneuver (Standard or Martial) costs 5 points less than the comparable power. Yet the Standard Maneuver can be used to exceed a hard DC cap and the Martial Maneuver can't?

[AlHazred]

Re: To gun fu or not gun fu?

 

If one of my players argues this vehemently about the nitty-gritty of his character's powers, I click to his Skills tab and start commenting about how comparatively few Skills he has, and better places to put his 5 points.

 

TBH, you're correct in that a non-MA guy can exceed the damage cap by 4 DC. However, the Extra Segment and -5 DCV limitations on it drastically cut back its effectiveness; I've seen four Haymakers used in my last five years of gaming Hero, and exactly one of them landed. One other missed the roll, and the other two were foiled by the Hero getting KOed or moved before it landed. And those were in Heroic level games; with superheroic-level opposition, and a more limited ability to choose your own battles (key strategy in Heroic-level games) I don't think the Haymaker is enough of a benefit to prevent me from including MA in my damage cap.

 

All that being said, we've derailed this topic enough. The subject is Ranged MA and factors pro and con that the OP should be aware of.

 

I will add one caveat to my original response: beware of Energy Projectors who max out their damage-dealing potential and design their own MA. Check possible min-max combos carefully for balance against your other distant-damage-dealing dudes.

[Peregrine]

Re: To gun fu or not gun fu?

 

If one of my players argues this vehemently about the nitty-gritty of his character's powers, I click to his Skills tab and start commenting about how comparatively few Skills he has, and better places to put his 5 points.

 

TBH, you're correct in that a non-MA guy can exceed the damage cap by 4 DC. However, the Extra Segment and -5 DCV limitations on it drastically cut back its effectiveness; I've seen four Haymakers used in my last five years of gaming Hero, and exactly one of them landed. One other missed the roll, and the other two were foiled by the Hero getting KOed or moved before it landed. And those were in Heroic level games; with superheroic-level opposition, and a more limited ability to choose your own battles (key strategy in Heroic-level games) I don't think the Haymaker is enough of a benefit to prevent me from including MA in my damage cap.

 

All that being said, we've derailed this topic enough. The subject is Ranged MA and factors pro and con that the OP should be aware of.

 

That's OK. I wasn't necessarily trying to convince you. I was presenting an alternative perspective for public consideration, to introduce the idea.

 

I will add one caveat to my original response: beware of Energy Projectors who max out their damage-dealing potential and design their own MA. Check possible min-max combos carefully for balance against your other distant-damage-dealing dudes.

 

I agree, and raise you: "Check possible min-max combos carefully" should be standard GM vetting for all characters, regardless.

[AlHazred]

Re: To gun fu or not gun fu?

 

I agree' date=' and raise you: "Check possible min-max combos carefully" should be standard GM vetting for all characters, regardless.[/quote']Yes, but I do it twice with that combo of Powers/MA. Some people can be very sneaky.

[GoldenAge]

Re: To gun fu or not gun fu?

 

John Preston' date=' Gammiton Cleric (Surbook's Stuff by Susano) [/b']

http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptationsmovie/asstd_movie/johnpreston.html

 

The Preacher (Surbook's Stuff by Susano)

http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptationsmovie/asstd_movie/preacher.html

 

Chow-Yun Fat (Surbook's Stuff by Susano)

http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptationsasianaction/chowyunfat.html

 

Roland Deschain -The Dark Tower (Surbook's Stuff by Susano)

http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptationsbook/dt/gunslinger.html

 

The Man With No Name - (a.k.a. Blondie, Joe, Manco) (Surbook's Stuff by Susano)

http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptationsmovie/asstd_movie/man.html

 

QM

 

Interestingly, 4 out of 5 of these characters are built as I would have suggested BEFORE I agreed to allow Gun Fu in my campaign. Thanks for the start!!!

 

However, I'd love to see some more characters built with ranged martial arts (specifically with hand guns) Thanks! (Q: you always seem to come through )

[GoldenAge]

Re: To gun fu or not gun fu?

 

I've been in campaigns where the GM adamantly didn't allow ranged martial arts. And I've been in campaigns where the GM didn't allow any martial arts at all. Really' date=' MA is a tool to reflect a certain kind of fighting, one with a few more options. In other RPGs (one that recently entered its 4th edition springs to mind) there seems to be a, I don't know, [b']fear[/b] of allowing characters to be as effective at range as they are hand-to-hand. Which is groundless.

 

Let me ask you this, what if I created a character who could send his hands through 4th dimensional space to pummel the enemy at range. Would that be acceptable? It's basically a form of Stretching. Now what if I have Martial Arts? Can I use them at range? I can see arguments both for ("Why not? Your hands are deadly weapons!") and against ("Martial Arts are precision maneuvers, and you can't see well enough to land the right blows.") but what it comes down to is simply, do you want them to be that powerful or not?

 

For the most part, all the MA do is add a few DCs (up to 4) and increase the maximum OCV and DCV your PCs are capable of; if you use hard caps for all three qualities, then whether the PCs got them by taking MA or buying the powers/skills directly is moot. The MA don't usually end up being that much of a cheaper alternative unless you allow limitations on them, which I counsel against.

 

The only problematic options are Ranged Disarm and Ranged Trip, but those are nonlethal attacks that can either take a ranged target out of sight/effectiveness, or be used at dramatic moments to thwart a villain whose about to get away with his plots by wielding the One Ring/sacrificing the virgin. In either case, it's easy enough to guard against these with a little forethought -- keep them in mind when designing your big final battles, and you'll be okay.

I love the Marvel Comics character The Spot (he just had a great reintroduction in Amazing Spiderman I think)! And I would certainly allow such a character in my campaign. In fact, we already have a martial art villain called Ring (he uses 5 bronze rings) who is built on the invisible stretching that does not cross intervening space.

 

I'm a story guy... So I rarely put hard limitations on characters (though there are some arbitrary game limitations in Epic City in order to enhance game play). So, to place limitations on MA characters (while not restricting others) wouldn't work (for me). But I totally understand where you're coming from. Thanks!

[GoldenAge]

Re: To gun fu or not gun fu?

 

I'm not sure I understand your objection. In my (admittedly limited) experience' date=' Haymaker attacks land [i']far, far[/i] less than any other kind of attack. So much so that my players do not usually use them. MA maneuvers, on the other hand, are very popular as you can get reliable bonuses that are relatively cheap.

 

To simulate a Haymaker, you could write:

 

10 Haymaker: Hand-To-Hand Attack +4d6; Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2), Extra Time (Extra Segment, -1/2)

 

Buying off the Extra Time limitation would be 3 points; buying a Martial Arts maneuver that was +0 OCV, -1 DCV, +4DC would be 5 points (IIRC). So, you're getting a better deal with the MA.

 

That example also shows one of the reasons I don't recommend limitations on MA.

I think I agree here. I haven't seen a Haymaker in my game since 2005

 

There's also Multiple Power Attacks and Sweeps/Rapic Fire to think about. Can you lump a Haymaker into a Multiple Power attack? You can certainly attack with multiple attacks within your martial art (as long as they don't replicate each other).

[GoldenAge]

Re: To gun fu or not gun fu?

 

what about a hero who uses a taser/ stun gun that shoots electrified corded darts would that be at range

 

I like this idea and will suggest it to my PC (this IS a good-guy campaign after all)

[bubba smith]

Re: To gun fu or not gun fu?

 

glad i could be of service

[Kenn]

Re: To gun fu or not gun fu?

 

There is one character in the Champions of Justice where the player and I (I GM) agreed to actually slightly depower the character's energy blasts and then add ranged martial arts.

 

The rationale is that Powerball's shtick is that he is an ex-major league baseball pitcher, and that he actually is THROWING the balls of energy he produces. As such, we concluded the martial art was a way to represent his skill and different pitches that can be thrown.

 

4 Fast Ball +0 OCV, +0 DCV, Range +2, Strike+3 DC

4 Breaking Ball +1 OCV, +0 DCV, Range +0, Strike+3 DC

4 Change Up +2 OCV, -2 DCV, Range +2, Strike+1 DC

0 Weapon Element: baseball (default element)

1 Weapon Element: personal energy blasts

4 +1 Ranged Damage Class

 

 

The fastball is more accurate over distance. The breaking ball has that little dip at the end which might make hitting the target easier. The change up is slower, but could be even more surprising.

 

This was a rebuild to better represent the concept rather than a new development. So far we're pleased. It hasn't had that much impact one way or another.

 

http://www.rcuhero.net/hsheets/powerball.htm

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: To gun fu or not gun fu?

 

Jelly Bryce

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/957612/posts

 

 

<<>>

 

 

QM

[lobsterGun]

Re: To gun fu or not gun fu?

 

You are right to avoid gun foo.

 

If your player wants to play a master of firearms, skill levels and extra damage dice are the only fair way to go. and by fair, I mean fair to the other players...the ones that you made pay full price for their powers.

 

Here's why: Two ways to write up a 6d6 EB with +2 vs range.

 

30pts 6d6 EB "Ray Beam"

4 pts +2 Ranged Skill Levels with "Ray Beam"

---

34 pts

 

vs

 

15pts 3d6 EB "Ray Beam"

4 pts Basic Shot (+2 Ranged Skill Level, +3 DC)

---

19 pts

 

You could argue that the non-marital arts example should cost more because it can be used with Haymaker, but is that worth 15 points? If I were the guy that you let buy the martial arts version I'd spend the points on +5Dex and not even bother to kiss Haymaker goodbye on her way out the door.

 

You could also argue that the problem with ranged martial arts affects normal martial arts too. You would get no argument from me on that point. Martial Arts has always been broken in the hero system for the same reason as noted above.

 

16pts +4d6 HA "Mighty Fist" (total 6d6)

5pts (10 pts) +2 DCV -1 limitation "only after Mighty Fist"

---

21 pts

 

vs

 

8pts 2d6 HA

4pts Martial Strike (comes with +2 DCV and +2d6 HA)

---

12 pts

 

 

If you're playing in a talented normal game, Martial arts is a good fit for the simple reason that super powers aren't available, but once you cross the boundary into super land you should leave MA at the border - they have no place there.

[Vulcan]

Re: To gun fu or not gun fu?

 

As much as I love the MA system in HEROs (and I primarily play Martial Artists myself! ) I have come to a similar conclusion. They are just a little bit too point-efficient compared to the power builds they duplicate.

[incrdbil]

Re: To gun fu or not gun fu?

 

If one of my players argues this vehemently about the nitty-gritty of his character's powers, I click to his Skills tab and start commenting about how comparatively few Skills he has, and better places to put his 5 points.

 

TBH, you're correct in that a non-MA guy can exceed the damage cap by 4 DC. However, the Extra Segment and -5 DCV limitations on it drastically cut back its effectiveness; I've seen four Haymakers used in my last five years of gaming Hero, and exactly one of them landed.

 

side note: I'm always fascinated by the different experiences related here. I'm used to seeing Haymakers in almost every gaming session.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: To gun fu or not gun fu?

 

Just as a side note, Martial Arts reduce Knockback, as do Killing Attacks, so a RKA (if you are using actual guns) Martial Maneuver will rarely get any extra damage from KB. That may not mean much in Heroic level games, but in some Super games I've seen KB almost double the damage of an attack.

 

Answering these questions may help you come to a decision: Do you allow regular Martial Maneuvers? Why or why not? If you do allow them, have you found them to be a problem? If you have not found them to be a problem, then why assume Ranged ones will be?

 

I’d say allow it with the player understanding that you have concerns about it and may require a rewrite if you feel it’s unbalanced. I think that’s much fairer than dismissing it out of hand, especially if you allow regular MAs.

 

Oh, and lobsterGun, “Basic Shot” only adds 2DC not 3 so the comparison should be 29 points to 19, not 34 to 19. Also +2 Penalty Skill Levels Vs Range is only 3 points, not 4, so that makes it 28 to 19.

Actually, since it takes 2 Martial Maneuver DCs to add 1 Damage Class to a Killing Attack, if you are talking about actual “gun-fu” (in other words, using “guns” traditionally built as RKAs) that makes the comparison more like 23 to 19.

[fbdaury]

Re: To gun fu or not gun fu?

 

 

Here's why: Two ways to write up a 6d6 EB with +2 vs range.

 

30pts 6d6 EB "Ray Beam"

4 pts +2 Ranged Skill Levels with "Ray Beam"

---

34 pts

 

vs

 

15pts 3d6 EB "Ray Beam"

4 pts Basic Shot (+2 Ranged Skill Level, +3 DC)

---

19 pts

 

Except that your math is totally off:

(30) 6d6 EB

(3) 2 Range penalty skill levels with EB (RNG bonuses are PSLs vs. range,

not +OCV)

-----------------------

(33)

 

vs.

 

(4) Basic Shot (+0 OCV +0 DCV +2 RNG +2 DC/not +3 DC)

(6) Minimum six more pts in ranged MA maneuvers (10 pt minimum

for all MA forms to be used)

(4) +1 DC with all Ranged MA attacks

(15) 3d6 EB

-----------------------

(29)

 

And, to me, the 4 point difference seems a fair savings for missing out on

a possible +4d6 for Haymakering the blast, since it would be easier to do

so from 8" away, especially if the target is not watching you at the time.

 

If you're going to compare two things on basis of points cost alone, try to

use the proper costs please.

 

You could also argue that the problem with ranged martial arts affects

normal martial arts too. You would get no argument from me on that point.

Martial Arts has always been broken in the hero system for the same

reason as noted above.

 

16pts +4d6 HA "Mighty Fist" (total 6d6)

5pts (10 pts) +2 DCV -1 limitation "only after Mighty Fist"

---

21 pts

 

vs

 

8pts 2d6 HA

4pts Martial Strike (comes with +2 DCV and +2d6 HA)

---

12 pts

 

Again your math is off:

(13) +4d6 Hand Attack (-1/2)

(5) +2 DCV, only after HA (-1)

--------

(18)

 

vs.

 

(7) +2d6 Hand attack (-1/2)

(4) Mar Strike ( +0 OCV +2 DCV +2 DC)

(6) Mandatory 6 additonal points MA maneuvers

------------------

(17)

 

 

 

If you're playing in a talented normal game, Martial arts is a good fit

for the simple reason that super powers aren't available, but once

you cross the boundary into super land you should leave MA at the

border - they have no place there.

 

And who are you decide what does and does not belong in the Super-

heroic genre? Much like Strength being underpriced or mental powers

being innately unbalancing, there are certain wrinkles in the game

system that any GM needs to wrk around but it is not your, or

anyone else's place to tell other GMs what they can and cannot use

in the Champions genre- I for one appreciate the way MAs are handled

in the Hero system.

[lobsterGun]

Re: To gun fu or not gun fu?

 

Except that your math is totally off:

(30) 6d6 EB

(3) 2 Range penalty skill levels with EB (RNG bonuses are PSLs vs. range,

not +OCV)

-----------------------

(33)

 

vs.

 

(4) Basic Shot (+0 OCV +0 DCV +2 RNG +2 DC/not +3 DC)

(6) Minimum six more pts in ranged MA maneuvers (10 pt minimum

for all MA forms to be used)

(4) +1 DC with all Ranged MA attacks

(15) 3d6 EB

-----------------------

(29)

 

 

 

Man, I did not come here to get into a flame war, I hope I didn't offend you.

 

These were just simple back of the wrong envelope calculations. For some reason I was thinking HA was 4 points per level.

 

But in any case, if we add more martial maneuvers to the character, then we have to pay for them... and that just ends up making the point disparity worse.

 

Lets add Martial Dodge and Martial Escape to round out the Martial Arts Package.

 

Note: I reduced the EB to 5d6 to remove the damage class from the equation.

 

(25) 5d6 EB

(3) 2 Range penalty skill levels with EB (RNG bonuses are PSLs vs. range, not +OCV)

(4) : +2 DCV with one maneuver : Simulated Martial Dodge

(8) : +25 strength -1 1/2 only for escaping -1/2 No figured characteristics : Simulated Martial Escape

-----------------------

(40)

 

vs.

 

(4) Basic Shot (+0 OCV +0 DCV +2 RNG +2 DC)

(4) Martial Dodge

(4) Martial Escape

(15) 3d6 EB

-----------------------

(27)

 

 

If we do the same thing to the HtH example we get a similar result.

[fbdaury]

Re: To gun fu or not gun fu?

 

Not offended by your math but by your claim that the current MA system does not belong in Champions, as it allows players to have characters like Shang Chi, Lady Shiv, Iron Fist, ect. in their games without it being too cost prohibitive for what they are getting.

 

However, if you want to go High-End Martial Artists, there are much more abusive ways to go than MAs- the Martial Art Multipower being a perfect example:

 

(60) Art of the Golden Grasshopper (60 active point reserve)

(8m) Grasshopper Strikes- +8d6 Hand Attack (-1/2), 0 end cost (+1/2)

(8m) Grasshopper Strength- +40 Str, 0 end cost (+1/2), only for exert

strength effects (grabs/disarms/etc, -1/2)

(5m) Grasshopper Dodge- +5 DCV levels

(6m) Grasshooper Grace- +6 hand to hand combat skills levels

(9m) Grasshopper Spines- 2d6 hka at 0 end cost (+1/2)

(6m) Grasshopper Chirp- 10d6 hearing group flash, 0 end (+1/2); No

Range (-1/2)

(7m) Grasshopper Tap/Bite- 5d6 NND (variable*, +1), Variable SFX

(NND defenses, limited group, +1/4); No Range (-1/2)

---------------------------------------------------------------

Now, for the above 109 points (I did mention High-end), you should reasonably be able to model almost every MA maneuver- the UMA contains a total of 172 points worth of maneuvers and this pool should be able to cover just about every one- for less points and to better effect as well, as you may add the Haymaker to any of these powers and with the potential to adjust the OCV and DCV to where you would reasonably hit with that attack. Do I think this is abusive? Heck no, I like it! Do I think that it's a bit much for most heroes? Heck yes- that's why lesser effects are modeled with MA maneuvers. But that's just me, YMMV.

[Kal'El Wayne]

Re: To gun fu or not gun fu?

 

Personally, all martial arts skills are disallowed in my game. But you can replicate them with 'powers'.

 

I am making packages for everything (usually 20-50 pnts each) for players who are new to Hero and don't want to work out every single point value.

 

I divide the packages up, into things like 'Background' (Cop, Professor, Spy, etc), 'Hero training' (Avengers, JLA, League Of Extraordinary Gentlemen, etc) and, most importantly, 'Powers' (Brick, Speedster, Gadgets, etc).

 

Powers is divided up into types of power: Martial arts, Gadgets, Magic, Superhuman, etc.

 

Martial Arts is divided up into a variety of 'styles': Iron Fist, Jade Dragon, etc. One of these 'styles' is an example of Gun Fu.

 

These styles have additional packages for improved mastery of the style.

 

So the first package of Gun Fu (Actually called 'Brothers of the Gun') is similar to Grammaton Clerics, with cool moves to evade traditional trajectories of fire while maximising kill zones.

 

The second level is like 'Wanted', the movie. It can shoot round corners and shoot bullets out of the air.