Finding something Hero System can't model...

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

While both can do that' date=' D&D 4e covers it explicitly. And, annoying as I find it in this case, an explicit declaration beats an implicit declaration.[/quote']

 

The thread title is "Finding something Hero System can't model", not “Finding something in another system that Hero System can do just fine but that I don’t want to take time to model”…

[Utech]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

I'm sure there are tons of things it can't model but I find it amusing how the examples offered immediately have builds offered for them' date=' often quite simple ones.[/quote']

 

I suppose. I'm still not satisfied about suggestions for a character made of living light (or sentient magic itself, if you prefer) who completely lacks a body and the Strength characteristic. All suggestions so far have fallen short.

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

I was speaking of the rules as-is. Not the rules as-can. D&D 4e explicity supports all attributes as potential 'to-hit' and 'damage' modifiers. Hero System implicitly supports anything possible without breaking the rules - Which does include using characteristics as OCV and DC modifiers.

 

Hero System is still far more flexible.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

I suppose. I'm still not satisfied about suggestions for a character made of living light (or sentient magic itself' date=' if you prefer) who completely lacks a body and the Strength characteristic. All suggestions so far have fallen short.[/quote']

 

 

Is the concept of 'completely lacking a body' another way of saying invulnerability (a character that can't die)? If so, that's just a campaign specific house rule away from being handled.

 

Every 'energy based body' I've ever read about in fiction (comics and otherwise) has always shown some way to affect that energy (affects desol vs. desol, transdimensional vs. targets on different dimension, etc..).

[Utech]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

Is the concept of 'completely lacking a body' another way of saying invulnerability (a character that can't die)?

No. It means that it completely lacks a body. If it's alive it can die.

 

Every 'energy based body' I've ever read about in fiction (comics and otherwise) has always shown some way to affect that energy (affects desol vs. desol' date=' transdimensional vs. targets on different dimension, etc..).[/quote']

 

I have no problem with having a way to damage the energy. Drain, EB or RKA vs ED would work great. Likewise, attacks vs ECV would work. Heck, lots of things would work.

 

But this is all side-stepping what I asked about. Can the Hero System model a character made of living light (or living magical energy, if you prefer) that has absolutely no physical body and absolutely no Strength Characteristic? I haven't seen a build that does this.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

No. It means that it completely lacks a body. If it's alive it can die.

 

 

 

I have no problem with having a way to damage the energy. Drain, EB or RKA vs ED would work great. Likewise, attacks vs ECV would work. Heck, lots of things would work.

 

But this is all side-stepping what I asked about. Can the Hero System model a character made of living light (or living magical energy, if you prefer) that has absolutely no physical body and absolutely no Strength Characteristic? I haven't seen a build that does this.

 

 

But you haven't stated a sfx that Hero can't model. You've just stated a mechanic it can't model. What's the point of the latter?

 

Anyway, If something can take BODY then it should be able to be grabbed or entangled.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

There are lots of things the Hero System can't model if you define the Hero System as: what is contained in the Hero System rulebook. Once you start adding in all of the additional stuff from the ultimate books, all bets are off.

[jtelson]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

There are lots of things the Hero System can't model if you define the Hero System as: what is contained in the Hero System rulebook. Once you start adding in all of the additional stuff from the ultimate books' date=' all bets are off.[/quote']

 

I haven't found that to be the case. In general I've found that the Ultimate books provided easier ways or less expensive ways to model things but not so much ways to model things that couldn't be done previously with the core rules.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

whatever.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

Steve Long has confirmed in the forum that it's possible to Multiform into a Base, Automaton, Vehicle, or AI - basically anything you can Summon you can Multiform into.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wants to Multiform into Steve Long and rewrite the rules.

 

Did he use the words 'with GM permission'?

[Utech]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

But you haven't stated a sfx that Hero can't model. You've just stated a mechanic it can't model. What's the point of the latter?

Title of this thread: "Finding something Hero System can't model..."

 

Anyway' date=' If something can take BODY then it should be able to be grabbed or entangled.[/quote']

I'll bite. Why?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

No. It means that it completely lacks a body. If it's alive it can die.

 

 

 

I have no problem with having a way to damage the energy. Drain, EB or RKA vs ED would work great. Likewise, attacks vs ECV would work. Heck, lots of things would work.

 

But this is all side-stepping what I asked about. Can the Hero System model a character made of living light (or living magical energy, if you prefer) that has absolutely no physical body and absolutely no Strength Characteristic? I haven't seen a build that does this.

 

 

Part of the problem is we have no idea how a 'body of living light' would interact with the world: I'm assuming it completely ignores the physical but can only exist in a medium that is transparent to light (so it is still trapped by opaque walls - even paper ones). The BOL can be damaged or disrupted by some forms of energy which interfere with its natural frequencies and, potentially, being trapped in an opaque bottle that is then filled with (say) opaque ink - giving it no where to exist.

 

That is (for most purposes) functional immunity to physical and a lot of other attacks - immunity not invulnerability - you are simply not interacting with them, rather than stopping them (as I'm defining the terms).

 

That is a broad sort of damage immunity, probably best modeled by desolidification. That means that affecting the 'real world' will be mighty expensive (KS got around it by mind linking to a real world vehicle and controlling that. Cunning idea, but arguably contravening the spirit of the rule if not the letter).

 

The bigegst single problem with desolidicivcation though is sfx interaction: anyone can buy 'affects desolid' even if it makes no sfx sense for that particular sfx interaction (you have a sword enchanted to affect ghosts: creatures of spirit - why should that affect a BOL?).

 

One 'solution' might be to allow the purchase of desolid several times, requiring multiple 'affects desolids' to get through.

 

The better solution is to set up your game so it is never an issue - always require 'affects desolid' to be partially limited to only work against certain sfx.

 

This and other solutions are perfectly possible, hell we could come up with a new character template of a power that does this - and it is a common enough sort of effect that it might not be a bad idea to do so.

 

Already said it but you can build anything in Hero given enough points, space on the character sheet and powdered handwavium. I might add 'house rules' or 'campaign rules' to that list.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

What special effect of attack would require a characteristic other than STR to add damage to it?

 

Remember,

It's Reason from Effect (not the other way around).

 

Maybe a magic wand that does more damage if the wielder's INT or EGO is high. Or a Nimble Blade' date=' where DEX adds. Compelling an extradimensional being to attack, where PRE influences how hard they hit. How about a power that causes great (but transient) pain in the wielder, so hardier individuals (high CON or BODY) can withstand more?[/quote']

 

This is an issue I've also looked at as one of play balance, especially in Heroic games where STR not only provides its own attack power but augments many of the common attacks you can get at no point cost.

 

I think the system can model it, but it requires strange builds like, say, +X DC limited to 1 DC per 5 points of Characteristic Y in excess of Z (if you want an INT minimum analagous to the STR minimum). If we're OK with that being the mechanism needed to build an attack augmented by a characteristic other than STR (or, for that matter, an attack that does something other than normal or killing damage and is augmented by STR - say a Drain), then why not go all the way and make that the mechanism for HKA's as well?

 

Anyway' date=' every sfx example given could be done in a similar fashion to Deadly Blow with a custom Limitation based on the characteristic of choice.[/quote']

 

We then need to resolve the debate as to whether Deadly Blow is technically legal, despite being an official optional talent. I see nothing wrong with being able to buy powers that enhance gear purchased with points, but there is definitely a difference of opinion in this regard. Plus, it always struck me as odd that the Rogue with, say, +1d6 Deadly Blow when he surprised an opponent gets no added damage when he Surprises an opponent with a Sap, a blow to the head or a Quarterstaff.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

No. It means that it completely lacks a body. If it's alive it can die.

 

 

 

I have no problem with having a way to damage the energy. Drain, EB or RKA vs ED would work great. Likewise, attacks vs ECV would work. Heck, lots of things would work.

 

But this is all side-stepping what I asked about. Can the Hero System model a character made of living light (or living magical energy, if you prefer) that has absolutely no physical body and absolutely no Strength Characteristic? I haven't seen a build that does this.

 

You're not reasoning from effect enough.

[Utech]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

You're not reasoning from effect enough.

Effect: character cannot be affected by anything that requires target to have a body. The character cannot be held, pushed, touched, cut, sliced, roped, or made to wear a tie. (This list is not exhaustive, of course. You'll need to go on to include all other effects of simply not having a body.)

[ghost-angel]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

Mechanics: Desolidification.

 

since the system is not Utterly Absolute, you will need to define SFX that can hurt you. And the Affects Desolidification Power will effect the target, but the SFX of that Effect are between the GM and Players.

 

The System exists nearly in a vacuum, it needs a Game to be fully implemented.

[Utech]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

hell we could come up with a new character template of a power that does this - and it is a common enough sort of effect that it might not be a bad idea to do so.

I think you've come to the crux of the matter. Since the Hero System includes rules for making new rules, I suppose it's fair to say that there is nothing that the Hero System can't model.

 

We could create characters who lack the Strength characteristic (because they have no body) by creating a new template based on the Automaton rules. Design a character normally but since these beings don't really have bodies, it automatically has a 0 Strength and is immune to all Powers that require the character to have Strength. These beings cannot make STR Rolls and do not have the ability to physically interact with anything...

 

I'll not try to create the entire template right now (the above is just ideas off the top of my head), but I suppose this would satisfy my initial challenge. The Hero System can model someone with no body if you extrapolate from the rules for modeling someone with no mind.

[Utech]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

Mechanics: Desolidification.

 

since the system is not Utterly Absolute, you will need to define SFX that can hurt you. And the Affects Desolidification Power will effect the target, but the SFX of that Effect are between the GM and Players.

 

The System exists nearly in a vacuum, it needs a Game to be fully implemented.

Went over that already. Rejected it. But I've come up with a different, satisfying answer. Thanks for your input.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

Whatever.

 

Strength Characteristic and Having/Not Having A Body are in no way connected.

[Utech]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

Whatever.

Agreed.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

I haven't found that to be the case. In general I've found that the Ultimate books provided easier ways or less expensive ways to model things but not so much ways to model things that couldn't be done previously with the core rules.

 

time stop, then. No speed zone. No hand-waving either.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

time stop' date=' then. No speed zone. No hand-waving either.[/quote']

 

EDM. Speed Zone is just a fully mapped out method of using the existing EDM rules to accomplish a time stop effect. Ultimate Speedster makes it easier to do but it could be done with just 5er alone.

[jtelson]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

time stop' date=' then. No speed zone. No hand-waving either.[/quote']

 

As I said earlier in this thread

 

I've traditionaly modeled it as a handful of AOE selective powers and Teleport Usable as an Attack. So' date=' essentially "What did I want changed about the world while time was stopped?' and "Where did I want to be standing when it started again?" Expend a single action for a Multiple Power Attack and Bob's your Uncle (not literally mind you, unless there's some EDM involved or I suppose if you actually have an Uncle Bob, which strangely I do.)[/quote']

 

Does need to have IPE and may want to add Autofire to taste.

[schir1964]

Re:

 

The problem here is that there isn't enough information to give a valid/meaningful response.

 

Are you talking per the rules as written and remaining within those constraints with no GM permission to go outside them?

 

Or are you talking mechanically too complex to be impractical in play?

If the latter, then where do you draw the line for "too complex" or "impractical"?

 

Also, what type of game are you wanting to play?

Are you talking Genre constraints or Setting restraints?

 

Depending on the answer to these questions you can get different answers that may or may not be valid or meaningful.

 

There are some things that should not be built with mechanics since there would be no point in playing the game with mechanics then. Such as an all powerful being for any particular game. If you could build it with the mechanics and it were allowed in such a game for a player to run as his own, then what would the point be for the rest of the players?

 

So yes, there are things that can't, or more precisely shouldn't, be built with the game mechanics, depending on the specific game and the goals thereof. There are other things that require so much reworking/twisting of the rules that they no longer resemble the original definition of the rule in question and become too problematic to be practical.

Just wanted to reiterate my original post.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Finding something Hero System can't model...

 

time stop' date=' then. No speed zone. No hand-waving either.[/quote']

Answered on the first 2 pages, including my answer which didn’t use EDM.

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1855970&postcount=15

I have to note though, saying “Fine, prove the system can do this but don’t use Power X” isn’t really looking for something the system cannot do, it’s looking for a second (or in this case, since the question has been answered in this very thread, a 4th or 5th way) to do something we’ve already shown it can while simultaneously trying to cripple our ability to do so.