How to use always on and how to shut the powers off in interesting ways.

[djpharoh9101]

if an always on power has a way to shut it off without using endurance, say by using an item of sorts, how does that get simulated in the HERO system? As a visual think of Cyclops' visor. His power is always on except when looking through his visor or glasses with ruby quartz lenses. with the visor gone he cant shut the power off unless he closes his eyes at which point anyone with in line of sight gets hit with the blast.

[Steve Long]

Re: How to use always on and how to shut the powers off in interesting ways.

 

This is a "how to," not a rules question per se, so I've moved it to Discussion to allow anyone to answer.

[CourtFool]

Re: How to use always on and how to shut the powers off in interesting ways.

 

You could build an item with Transform to remove the Limitation. As a GM I would also allow buying a sort of inverse Naked Power Advantage, although that would not be RAW.

[ideasmith]

Re: How to use always on and how to shut the powers off in interesting ways.

 

I would first buy the power with 'Always On'. Then I would buy 'Bought Off Limitation' (base cost = difference between cost of power and what power would cost without limitation) with a Focus.

 

Since 'Bought Off Limitation' is a house rule, check with your GM before using.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How to use always on and how to shut the powers off in interesting ways.

 

Here's how a naked limitation buyoff might look:

 

169 Ruby Eye Beams (without Always On Limitation): Multipower, 75-point reserve, all slots Personal Immunity (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (169 Active Points)

7u 1) Energy Blast 15d6 (vs. ED) (75 Active Points) - END=0

5u 2) Energy Blast 10d6 (vs. ED), Explosion (Cone; -1 DC/2"; +1/2) (75 Active Points); No Range (-1/2) - END=0

7u 3) Energy Blast 8 1/2d6 (vs. ED), Double Knockback (+3/4) (75 Active Points) - END=0

 

113 Ruby Eye Beams: Multipower, 75-point reserve, all slots Personal Immunity (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (169 Active Points); Always On (Only affects reserve cost; -1/2)

7u 1) Energy Blast 15d6 (vs. ED) (75 Active Points) - END=0

5u 2) Energy Blast 10d6 (vs. ED), Explosion (Cone; -1 DC/2"; +1/2) (75 Active Points); No Range (-1/2) - END=0

7u 3) Energy Blast 8 1/2d6 (vs. ED), Double Knockback (+3/4) (75 Active Points) - END=0

 

Cost Difference = 56 Points

 

37 Ruby Visor: Custom Power - Buyoff of Always On Limitation on Eyebeams (56 Active Points); Variable Limitations (requires -1 worth of Limitations; OIF Visor & Gestures, Closing or Covering Eyes with Side Effect: Blindness; -1/2) - END=0

[Kraven Kor]

Re: How to use always on and how to shut the powers off in interesting ways.

 

Eh... I'm not so comfortable with "Always On" placed on a multipower... I mean, which slot is always on? In the case of Cyclops, he can't really focus or adjust his beams without the goggles. He would be quite the challenge to build "realistically" but I suppose that solution is as good as any others.

 

But, I digress.

 

I think I agree with Ideasmith. Basically you have an "Always On" power, which is a limitation. If you want to have an item or switch or whatever that allows you to control the power, then that item or switch should cost you exactly as much as the limitation grants. Or at least be based on that cost, then with the Focus and such limitations added.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: How to use always on and how to shut the powers off in interesting ways.

 

Variable Limitation: between Always On, Side Effects: Blindness, or OIF: Ruby Quartz Glasses.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: How to use always on and how to shut the powers off in interesting ways.

 

Variable Limitation: between Always On' date=' Side Effects: Blindness, or OIF: Ruby Quartz Glasses.[/quote']

 

This is absolutely the way I would do it. Now that you point it out anyway. Good call.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How to use always on and how to shut the powers off in interesting ways.

 

Variable Limitation: between Always On' date=' Side Effects: Blindness, or OIF: Ruby Quartz Glasses.[/quote']

 

This implies that a Side Effect for Blindness can reduce the cost of powers by far more than the point value of the Physical Limitation of Blindness. Is it reasonable that being blind sometimes is a greater point saver than being completely blind all the time?

 

A Physical Limitation of "must fire at full power or be blind without ruby quartz eye protection" seems quite adequate to fit Cyclops.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How to use always on and how to shut the powers off in interesting ways.

 

I strongly take on board Kraven Kor's point about 'always on' in a MP - clearly the power is not on when you re-assign the slot. I might not mind to much if every slot was a variation on the same power, but I'd have to see a build to OK it.

 

Anyway, 'always on' is a bit of a pain for an EB like Cyclops': to qualify for 'always on' the EB needs to be continuous, 0 END and persistent. That means a 4d6 EB to fit under 60 active. That is not an appropriate build - 'continuous' allows a power to hit and keep damaging without a further attack roll.

 

That is not how Cyclops' power works - he simply has to use the attack every phase - in fact it goes off automatically - unless he uses the visor or closes his eyes. Reasoning from effect that sounds like a side effect that goes off every phase UNLESS the power is in use (i.e. the attack is directed so as to be useful) the character has his eyes closed or is wearing a ruby visor. So it might look like this...

 

Energy Blast 12d6 (60 Active Points); Side Effects (Side Effect only affects the environment near the character; Full power EB (including END use) whenever the character is not actively using the attack, wearing a Ruby Visor or has his eyes open; -3/4), Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (Can not turn off power voluntarily - can only mitigate effects; -1/4)

 

I appreciate that does not really address the point in issue, but it seems like a better build than piling on advantages you do not want.

 

As the build as present it requires END, even when not 'actively' being used, I'd add this (because Cyclops does get tired from using his attack):

 

Naked Modifier: Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) for up to 60 Active Points (30 Active Points); OIF (Visor; -1/2), Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Only to reduce END loss from EB side effects; -1/2)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How to use always on and how to shut the powers off in interesting ways.

 

I am not that familiar with the current workings of Cyclops powers.

 

Are his optic blasts still active if he's knocked out?

(with no visor and eyes open)

[djpharoh9101]

Re: How to use always on and how to shut the powers off in interesting ways.

 

@hyper-man This is probably a likely scenario him knocked out with eyes open so that the power is just emanating from his eyes.

 

@Sean waters what you said would be wrong is exactly what would happen the reason why its bad is that now the beam does not discriminate aka do damage to other players and innocent extras within line of sight which its why its a disadvantage. also he cant shut it off without the eyes closed or the glasses, there is absolutely no free will with his eyes open and visor/glasses gone.

 

@everyone else. This absolutely must be Obvious ACCESSIBLE Focus. I wanna see the unlucky son of a gun that decides ill shut it off by taking the visor away.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How to use always on and how to shut the powers off in interesting ways.

 

I am not that familiar with the current workings of Cyclops powers.

 

Are his optic blasts still active if he's knocked out?

(with no visor and eyes open)

 

It has all been reconned, probably more than once, but as I understand it the red energy comes from another dimension, his eyes being 'portals', so the energy itself would not tire him, but he has to open the portals, which does require energy, and which he does not seem to be able to shut off while conscious. I'm pretty sure that the power does not work when he is unconscious, even if his eyes are open, but I'm not absolutely sure (and Marvel continuity is probably not so watertight as to exclude examples of both )

[Alibear]

Re: How to use always on and how to shut the powers off in interesting ways.

 

It has all been reconned' date=' probably more than once, but as I understand it the red energy comes from another dimension, his eyes being 'portals', so the energy itself would not tire him, but he has to open the portals, which does require energy, and which he does not seem to be able to shut off while conscious. I'm pretty sure that the power does not work when he is unconscious, even if his eyes are open, but I'm not absolutely sure (and Marvel continuity is probably not so watertight as to exclude examples of both )[/quote']

 

That's a pretty cool idea.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How to use always on and how to shut the powers off in interesting ways.

 

That is not how Cyclops' power works - he simply has to use the attack every phase - in fact it goes off automatically - unless he uses the visor or closes his eyes. Reasoning from effect that sounds like a side effect that goes off every phase UNLESS the power is in use (i.e. the attack is directed so as to be useful) the character has his eyes closed or is wearing a ruby visor. So it might look like this...

 

Energy Blast 12d6 (60 Active Points); Side Effects (Side Effect only affects the environment near the character; Full power EB (including END use) whenever the character is not actively using the attack, wearing a Ruby Visor or has his eyes open; -3/4), Limited Power Power loses about a fourth of its effectiveness (Can not turn off power voluntarily - can only mitigate effects; -1/4)

 

I appreciate that does not really address the point in issue, but it seems like a better build than piling on advantages you do not want.

 

First of, I believe Cyclops is "solar powered", much like Havok. I've never seen any reference to his eyes being portals to another dimension. However, there have been references to his having been hit on the head as a child, resulting in damage to the portion of his brain which would grant voluntary control over his powers.

 

The problem I have with this build is that 12d6 EB, Side Effect (-3/4) costs 34 points, so he has saved 26 points. If he took Phys Lim: Blind, he would get 25 points and always be blind, no choice. This build saves 26 points, and he can mitigate his blindness with a visor/glasses or by attacking. It is much less limiting, and saving slightly more points.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: How to use always on and how to shut the powers off in interesting ways.

 

First of, I believe Cyclops is "solar powered", much like Havok. I've never seen any reference to his eyes being portals to another dimension. However, there have been references to his having been hit on the head as a child, resulting in damage to the portion of his brain which would grant voluntary control over his powers.

 

The problem I have with this build is that 12d6 EB, Side Effect (-3/4) costs 34 points, so he has saved 26 points. If he took Phys Lim: Blind, he would get 25 points and always be blind, no choice. This build saves 26 points, and he can mitigate his blindness with a visor/glasses or by attacking. It is much less limiting, and saving slightly more points.

 

In my suggested build, I priced Side Effect: Blind at -1/2. I also would make that a special case as being part of the Variable Limitation; I don't think I'd normally allow Side Effects: Causes Blindness on a Power.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How to use always on and how to shut the powers off in interesting ways.

 

First of' date=' I believe Cyclops is "solar powered", much like Havok. I've never seen any reference to his eyes being portals to another dimension. However, there have been references to his having been hit on the head as a child, resulting in damage to the portion of his brain which would grant voluntary control over his powers.[/quote']

 

I think that was how it was before it got retconned

 

http://marvel.com/universe/Cyclops

 

The problem I have with this build is that 12d6 EB' date=' Side Effect (-3/4) costs 34 points, so he has saved 26 points. If he took Phys Lim: Blind, he would get 25 points and always be blind, no choice. This build saves 26 points, and he can mitigate his blindness with a visor/glasses or by attacking. It is much less limiting, and saving slightly more points.[/quote']

 

The problem is not just the 'not being able to see' bit, it is also the 'massive energy discharge every phase' bit. That becomes a problem that a villain could exploit, and by villain, I mean GM. The value of the Side Effect is based on a 60 point power that affects the environment, not blindness as such.

 

That's the only way I could think of having the harmful effect (massive concussive blast) without having to pay for it, which would suck.

 

I built it with HD, and I could be easily persuaded that it is not worth -3/4 (although i could also easily be persuaded that it is)

[ghost-angel]

Re: How to use always on and how to shut the powers off in interesting ways.

 

I think Chris' Variable Limitation is the appropriate build. It's only a -1/4 and he is stuck with one of three effects.

 

Even if most of the time he's utilizing the OIF portion, there's always that chance he'll either be blind as he keeps his eyes closed or be uncontrollably blasting everything in, well, sight.

 

Sometimes it's not so much how often a Limitation affects him, but how much it affects their tactical and roleplaying choices. "Sorry, babe, I gotta keep the shades on in bed or . . . ."

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How to use always on and how to shut the powers off in interesting ways.

 

I think that was how it was before it got retconned

 

http://marvel.com/universe/Cyclops

 

Actually, even that reads consistent with the history (solar powered; head injury; etc.), but I don't ever recall seeing the "other dimension" source mentioned in the actual source material.

 

The problem is not just the 'not being able to see' bit, it is also the 'massive energy discharge every phase' bit. That becomes a problem that a villain could exploit, and by villain, I mean GM. The value of the Side Effect is based on a 60 point power that affects the environment, not blindness as such.

 

That's the only way I could think of having the harmful effect (massive concussive blast) without having to pay for it, which would suck.

 

I built it with HD, and I could be easily persuaded that it is not worth -3/4 (although i could also easily be persuaded that it is)

 

Would the typical side effect have a shutdown condition? "OK, you have this massive side effect if you're not using the power, but here are three separate options to avoid it" seems much less limiting than "every time you use the power, this bad thing will happen", or even "if you are not using the power, this bad thing will happen".

[CourtFool]

Nicely done

 

Variable Limitation: between Always On' date=' Side Effects: Blindness, or OIF: Ruby Quartz Glasses.[/quote']

 

I like this build and would be willing to handwave the rest of the nuances.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How to use always on and how to shut the powers off in interesting ways.

 

.....................

Would the typical side effect have a shutdown condition? "OK, you have this massive side effect if you're not using the power, but here are three separate options to avoid it" seems much less limiting than "every time you use the power, this bad thing will happen", or even "if you are not using the power, this bad thing will happen".

 

Side effects need looking at.

 

They are defined all wrong: they are defined in terms of how many points of effect they have and they should be defined in terms of how much trouble they cause the PC.

 

That would make it much easier to use them, and they would make more sense that way.

[Ice9]

Re: How to use always on and how to shut the powers off in interesting ways.

 

The Variable Limitation seems like the cleanest way to accomplish it. Although I have to admit, I'd probably just use the shortcut "not as bad as standard Always On, worse than no limitation, therefore -1/4".

 

For this power in particular though, I think there should be an additional limitation - "Must Aim Where Looking". By itself this wouldn't be much of a limitation, but combined with the Always On it makes a big difference - an Always On energy blast that comes from your hand is problematic, but you can at least keep it aimed at the floor or sky. One that comes from your eyes means you're effectively blinded if you don't want to be blasting everything you see.

 

Also/alternately, I wonder if the value of Always On should vary by the power in question. A large AoE firestorm centered on yourself is a huge disadvantage to always have on, a laser beam projected from your index finger is still very problematic but not nearly as bad, and an always-on force field is comparatively minor, although not without its problems. I think a -1/2 is fair for the forcefield, but the firestorm seems like -1 or more. This requires DM judgement, but so do several limitations.