Champions 6th version

[archermoo]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

To represent the effects of the primary characteristics. Does it not stand to reason someone who is in real good shape (CON) would be able to exert (END) themselves longer than someone not in good shape, or that the person in good shape would be able to catch their breath quicker (REC)?

 

If you think it is reasonable there is nothing stopping you from buying up the END and REC of characters that buy up their CON. The system doesn't stop you from doing it, it just doesn't force you to do it anymore.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

To represent the effects of the primary characteristics. Does it not stand to reason someone who is in real good shape (CON) would be able to exert (END) themselves longer than someone not in good shape, or that the person in good shape would be able to catch their breath quicker (REC)?

 

Yes, I'm sure there are other systems that use figured characteristics. I have played quite a few systems, but I could not recall another system off the top of my head that used figured characteristics.

 

Nimble Thief who has no idea how to act or react in combat, in fact he tends to freeze up: High DEX, Low DCV

 

The Oafish Brute who is out of shape but can still drink like a fish, and is incredibly hard to stun, too bad just walking up a flight of stairs winds him: High Con, Low END

 

So, some SFX that could be easily created with the new method. Yes, they can be created other ways but I thought the point of Hero was options not restrictions?

[Starlight]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

And incidentally' date=' other systems have Characteristics figured from other Characteristics. Therefore, by definition, it is not unique.[/quote']

 

Champions was the FIRST as I recollect. Other games had based leaping or combat modifiers off characteristics but Champions was the first game that I can recall having primary characteristics and figured characteristics that were affected by the primaries. It was a "wow" moment when I read that in the original grey cover 80 page edition and realised what was being done.

 

Without figured characteristics Hero System loses a trademark feature. This is true whether the new characteristics are an improvement or not. Something that was part of the feel, the tradition, extending from the first Champions release through to 5th edition Hero, has been lost.

 

It's hard to describe how I feel about 6th edition. I have the PDFs but haven't had a chance to read them thoroughly as yet. My "gut" feeling is that 6th edition has the potential to be a good game, possibly once the rough edges are smoothed over a great game. But somehow, despite all the similarity it does not feel like Hero any longer. Changing the characteristics feels like a change in the foundation of a building. The building is made from the same bricks and tiles and lumber... but it simply no longer feels like the same building it was.

 

Maybe when it's no longer strange and alien, and I've been playing 6th edition for a while, I'll change my mind and once again think of it as the Hero I've known and loved over many years. Only time will tell.

[Stone]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

To each their own. I always considered the effect the Primaries had on Figureds to be an annoying side effect and am happy to see the linkage gone. It has annoyed me since I started playing Champions back in '81 and I couldn't be happier that it is gone.

 

I also started back '81. I've always considered the figured characteristics an effect of the primaries. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

[Stone]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

There is, of course, nothing at all stopping you from buying the END and REC you think your character needs. Indeed, there's less stopping you now, since you can create a high CON character with an abnormally low END and/or REC, if your character concept calls for it (maybe someone who is really fat, who can take a punch in the gut but gets winded walking up a flight of stairs?).

 

Or a nimble and agile character (high DEX) who's not really that much good in a fight (low CV).

 

The more I think about it, the more character concepts this opens up for me. YMMV, of course, but there's nothing that prevents you from buying up all the stats you think you need. If you want a high CON, high END, high ED, high REC, high STUN character, it's still easy enough to make one. Easier, maybe.

 

I agree there is nothing stopping anyone from buying up those stats. There was nothing stopping anyone from buying them in the first 5 editions of Hero either. IMO losing the figured characteristics loses alot of the effect of the primaries.

[Stone]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

If you think it is reasonable there is nothing stopping you from buying up the END and REC of characters that buy up their CON. The system doesn't stop you from doing it' date=' it just doesn't force you to do it anymore.[/quote']

 

5th edition did not force you to buy END or REC to represent a higher CON. The character already received bonuses to END or REC as a result of buying a higher CON.

 

Removing the figured characteristics will force a PC to buy up END and REC to represent having a higher CON.

[Stone]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

Nimble Thief who has no idea how to act or react in combat, in fact he tends to freeze up: High DEX, Low DCV

 

The Oafish Brute who is out of shape but can still drink like a fish, and is incredibly hard to stun, too bad just walking up a flight of stairs winds him: High Con, Low END

 

So, some SFX that could be easily created with the new method. Yes, they can be created other ways but I thought the point of Hero was options not restrictions?

 

I was speaking in generalities. Yes, there are several examples for each side of the argument. I get I'm in the minority here, but that doesn't change my opinion nor am I trying to change anyone else's opinion. IMO removing figured characteristics will less accurately reflect the results of the primary stats without the character having to buy up the formerly figured characteristics.

[JohnOSpencer]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

I agree there is nothing stopping anyone from buying up those stats. There was nothing stopping anyone from buying them in the first 5 editions of Hero either. IMO losing the figured characteristics loses alot of the effect of the primaries.

 

I don't think you're quite 'getting' what they are saying. As clearly as I can say it: 'Decoupling' the old figured characteristics does not stop you in any way shape or form from making the character you want. It does make it easier to make characters who didn't need all those figured stats.

 

The first thing my players would always do is hand me their characters and have me 'tweak' their stats so they were 'cost effective'. Now that is no longer necessary, they can just buy what they need.

 

And finally, it removes the old (BS) argument from non-HERO gamers that you require calculus(or other high math) skills to play the game. You'd be surprised how many people that statement would scare away.

 

Of course, you can still play 5E, there is nothing wrong with it. But try to keep an open mind, you might be pleasantly surprised.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

What about DEX? Does it not make sense someone with a high DEX would be quicker and harder to hit in combat? If the figured characteristics SPEED' date=' OCV, & DCV are not based on DEX, then it makes DEX less necessary. In fact, not having figured characteristics reduces the importance of all the primary characteristics used in figured characteristics. [/quote']

 

It makes sense that a character who can increase his density by, say, 64x, can also bounce bullets from his skin. You still have to buy Resistant Protection, though.

 

Thing is, now you get to decide what makes sense. Maybe I want my high INT, high EGO guy (representing quick thinking) to have a high SPD to go with it. It makes sense to me that quickness of thought leads to quick reactions. I buy high INT, high EGO, and high SPD.

 

To me, this is the one and only heart of the HERO System: the person making the character, and not the system, gets to decide what abilities it makes sense for his character to have, based on his concept of the character and special effects.

 

If you want your high DEX character to have high SPD, and be harder to hit in combat, you can buy those things. If you want your iron willed mentalist with high EGO to be harder to affect with Mental Powers, you can buy those things. No one took your concepts away. You still have the tools to realize those concepts. They're just not automatically connected.

[Stone]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

I don't think you're quite 'getting' what they are saying. As clearly as I can say it: 'Decoupling' the old figured characteristics does not stop you in any way shape or form from making the character you want. It does make it easier to make characters who didn't need all those figured stats.

 

The first thing my players would always do is hand me their characters and have me 'tweak' their stats so they were 'cost effective'. Now that is no longer necessary, they can just buy what they need.

 

And finally, it removes the old (BS) argument from non-HERO gamers that you require calculus(or other high math) skills to play the game. You'd be surprised how many people that statement would scare away.

 

Of course, you can still play 5E, there is nothing wrong with it. But try to keep an open mind, you might be pleasantly surprised.

 

I do appreciate you trying to explain it, but please don't take this the wrong way. I understand what they are saying. A PC simply buys the characteristic to the level they want. I agree with your statement about the BS argument about math. Its simple math.

 

There will be min/max'ing in 6th edition just like in any point based system. My point is decoupling the figured characteristics turns them into just another stat with no relation to any other stat. IMO this will no longer reveal the impact of the primary stats without the PC having to buy up the formerly coupled stats separately.

[Stone]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

It makes sense that a character who can increase his density by, say, 64x, can also bounce bullets from his skin. You still have to buy Resistant Protection, though.

 

Thing is, now you get to decide what makes sense. Maybe I want my high INT, high EGO guy (representing quick thinking) to have a high SPD to go with it. It makes sense to me that quickness of thought leads to quick reactions. I buy high INT, high EGO, and high SPD.

 

To me, this is the one and only heart of the HERO System: the person making the character, and not the system, gets to decide what abilities it makes sense for his character to have, based on his concept of the character and special effects.

 

If you want your high DEX character to have high SPD, and be harder to hit in combat, you can buy those things. If you want your iron willed mentalist with high EGO to be harder to affect with Mental Powers, you can buy those things. No one took your concepts away. You still have the tools to realize those concepts. They're just not automatically connected.

 

I understand what you and the others have said. However your example of high INT, EGO, and Speed is mute since those stats were not coupled in 5th edition. How did 5th edition decide what abilities a character had? The figured characteristics simply reflected the effects of the primary characteristics. Now there is no relationship between any characteristics. I simply think this a bad idea. Yes I know I will still be able to buy up characteristics to represent having a high CON, DEX, or STR, but to me it removes a core component to the system.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

To many of us the Core of Hero System is Reasoning From Effects.

 

In some ways Figured Characteristics actually prevented us from doing that.

 

Reasoning From Effect is one thing that no system I can think of does.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

To many of us the Core of Hero System is Reasoning From Effects.

 

In some ways Figured Characteristics actually prevented us from doing that.

 

Reasoning From Effect is one thing that no system I can think of does.

 

This is what I was trying to get at, above. Hero is frequently called an "effects based system". Instead of having a power called Generate and Control Fire, you buy the fire blast, the fire shield, the ability to fly by projecting fire, the ability to create rings of fire, etc. Figured Characteristics fail the "effects based" part.

[Stone]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

This is what I was trying to get at' date=' above. Hero is frequently called an "effects based system". Instead of having a power called Generate and Control Fire, you buy the fire blast, the fire shield, the ability to fly by projecting fire, the ability to create rings of fire, etc. Figured Characteristics fail the "effects based" part.[/quote']

 

I disagree with that. Figured characteristics are effects based. Yes you can spend points to increase them or lower them and gain some points, but their base value was the effect of the primary characteristics.

 

Let me be clear about this. I am not bashing anyone for liking this change. I sincerely hope Hero Games continues to be successful for a long long time. I simply disagree with this change.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

I disagree with that. Figured characteristics are effects based. Yes you can spend points to increase them or lower them and gain some points, but their base value was the effect of the primary characteristics.

 

Let me be clear about this. I am not bashing anyone for liking this change. I sincerely hope Hero Games continues to be successful for a long long time. I simply disagree with this change.

 

I'll admit I find to difficult to understand how people can be so attached to formulae that were clearly chosen just because they looked nice and used simple numbers. I mean does anyone really think that how much you lift and how hard you punch determines how physically tough you are while your general healthiness determines how resistant to energy damage you are but plays no part in your resistance to physical damage?

 

Not to mention that these formulae were broke from the beginning and the highly artificial rule restricting you to only selling back one Figured Characteristic had to be put in place to prevent exploits.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

5th edition did not force you to buy END or REC to represent a higher CON. The character already received bonuses to END or REC as a result of buying a higher CON.

 

Removing the figured characteristics will force a PC to buy up END and REC to represent having a higher CON.

 

No, it forces a PC to buy up END and REC to represent having a higher END and REC.

[Stone]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

I'll admit I find to difficult to understand how people can be so attached to formulae that were clearly chosen just because they looked nice and used simple numbers. I mean does anyone really think that how much you lift and how hard you punch determines how physically tough you are while your general healthiness determines how resistant to energy damage you are but plays no part in your resistance to physical damage?

 

Not to mention that these formulae were broke from the beginning and the highly artificial rule restricting you to only selling back one Figured Characteristic had to be put in place to prevent exploits.

 

Were the figured characteristics perfect? Of course not. There is no gaming system this is. Do you not think there will be opportunities in 6th Ed for players to exploit the system? Of course there will be. I'm not attached to the formulas. What I am attached to is the concept of the primary characteristics effecting the figured characteristics. I'm all for revamping the formulas or character costs...within reason. I simply disagree with removing figured characteristics all together.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

I disagree with that. Figured characteristics are effects based. Yes you can spend points to increase them or lower them and gain some points, but their base value was the effect of the primary characteristics.

 

Let me be clear about this. I am not bashing anyone for liking this change. I sincerely hope Hero Games continues to be successful for a long long time. I simply disagree with this change.

 

Except you could only sell one back. So of you wanted 2 or more of the figured characteristics to be low (for whatever reason) you had to leave the Primaries low as well. And if you wanted them high you had to buy them with a Limitation. Thatcsays to me that the process of Reasoning From Effect was inherently flawed that there was that much complexity.

 

Without figureds you now buy them all exactly where you want them - no hoops.

[Stone]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

Except you could only sell one back. So of you wanted 2 or more of the figured characteristics to be low (for whatever reason) you had to leave the Primaries low as well. And if you wanted them high you had to buy them with a Limitation. Thatcsays to me that the process of Reasoning From Effect was inherently flawed that there was that much complexity.

 

Without figureds you now buy them all exactly where you want them - no hoops.

 

I agree with you on only being able to sell one stat back. I didn't agree with that either, but then again there were multiple things in Hero I disagreed with.

 

Correct. No hoops, and no relationship between characteristics either. I promise I'm not trying to be bull-headed or argue for the sake of arguing. I just liked the relation between the primaries and the figured stats.

[teh bunneh]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

I almost always bought up my figured stats anyway. If I gave my guy a 60 STR and a 30 CON, you can be sure I didn't leave his PD at 12 and his ED at 6. I might leave his REC and END alone (depending on concept), but I'd almost always tweak his STUN as well.

 

At a guess, I'd say most Hero players did the same thing most of the time. Figured, not figured, I suspect few people will even notice the difference in actual play.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

That's cool really. Mostly I'm just questioning the idea that it's a "core mechanic" or such. I have no real problem with the idea of loving them as a mechanic or concept- I find issue with telling us we're not playing the same system as beforexwhen many of us like the change.

 

It's still Hero - it's just not exactly them same as before for better or worse. Fuzion was a comleyely different system - 6E is not.

[Stone]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

That's cool really. Mostly I'm just questioning the idea that it's a "core mechanic" or such. I have no real problem with the idea of loving them as a mechanic or concept- I find issue with telling us we're not playing the same system as beforexwhen many of us like the change.

 

It's still Hero - it's just not exactly them same as before for better or worse. Fuzion was a comleyely different system - 6E is not.

 

I said core since it had been with the system since the beginning. I'm willing to give it chance. I may end up liking it, who knows.

 

I also agree it's still Hero. I've tried very hard to forget Fuzion.

[Stone]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

I almost always bought up my figured stats anyway. If I gave my guy a 60 STR and a 30 CON, you can be sure I didn't leave his PD at 12 and his ED at 6. I might leave his REC and END alone (depending on concept), but I'd almost always tweak his STUN as well.

 

At a guess, I'd say most Hero players did the same thing most of the time. Figured, not figured, I suspect few people will even notice the difference in actual play.

 

Agreed. It just depends on your character concept.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

Were the figured characteristics perfect? Of course not. There is no gaming system this is. Do you not think there will be opportunities in 6th Ed for players to exploit the system? Of course there will be. I'm not attached to the formulas. What I am attached to is the concept of the primary characteristics effecting the figured characteristics. I'm all for revamping the formulas or character costs...within reason. I simply disagree with removing figured characteristics all together.

 

Then I'll make a suggestion I've made elsewhere. Set campaign minimums for the former figured as follows:

 

PD: STR/5

ED: CON/5

... and so on. Oh, and allow them to ignore one of these minimums.

 

No, it won't give you the free points that the old Figured Characteristics gave you, but it does mean the former Primaries have an effect on the value of the former Figureds.

[Stone]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

Then I'll make a suggestion I've made elsewhere. Set campaign minimums for the former figured as follows:

 

PD: STR/5

ED: CON/5

... and so on. Oh, and allow them to ignore one of these minimums.

 

No, it won't give you the free points that the old Figured Characteristics gave you, but it does mean the former Primaries have an effect on the value of the former Figureds.

 

I appreciate the suggestion. When I'm able to get my hands on a copy and read through it, I'll have to make a determination on what changes I like and dislike and then make my own house rules. Right now I am considering coming up with my own characteristic costs and formula for figured characteristics.