Champions 6th version

[Barton]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

Another suggestion for you snapt.

I have a Pulp Hero game we are going to convert to 6th very soon. We do the remote game on Skype and maptool (both are free). PM me if you are interested in listening in on a session or two or maybe even guest playing a session or two.

[Stone]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

Personally I am in the "wait and see" camp, but I am not real happy about the changes I have heard about so far. I want to see how the figured characteristics are going to be done and what else has been changed to gain the "granular" feel Steve mentioned he wanted to obtain. I'm not holding my breath on this one.

[nexus]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

Personally I am in the "wait and see" camp' date=' but I am not real happy about the changes I have heard about so far. I want to see how the figured characteristics are going to be done and what else has been changed to gain the "granular" feel Steve mentioned he wanted to obtain. I'm not holding my breath on this one.[/quote']

 

There are no figured Characteristics in Hero 6th edition, that is no Characteristics are derived from another. They're all set at a base and players purchase them to whatever level that want individually.

[Katherine]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

Personally I am in the "wait and see" camp' date=' but I am not real happy about the changes I have heard about so far. I want to see how the figured characteristics are going to be done and what else has been changed to gain the "granular" feel Steve mentioned he wanted to obtain. I'm not holding my breath on this one.[/quote']

 

Technically there aren't any figured Characteristics anymore. The characteristics that were formerly figured are now brought up from a base like the others.

[Vigil]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

Hi Folks,

 

I haven't read all of the posts here or in th other very extensive threads dealing with the 6th Ed but I did pick it up and browse through it (all 700+ pages).

 

Unfortunately, imo, it's the weakest iteration of the game baring New Millenium, which was an all time low.

 

I can understand Steve's stated reasoning that it's made to appeal to subscribers for the online game but it seems to be targeted to a group that really, in its very nature, has no interest in anything but online gaming.

 

So, it's basically a situation of abandoning your base in the hopes of finding a broader audience.

 

Truly a case of the grass is greener if ever there was one.

 

It seems some of the changes were pretty trivial and some (like Growth) were of the "huh, what th--?" sort (4 points for level of DI and 6 for Shrinking just seems odd and gimmicky somehow) .

 

To me the truly egregious offense came in the dismantling of the CHAR systems, something that has been a bulwark and an insitution right from the get go. Jettisoning the Figured CHARs made no sense either.

 

Given the revision it seems that every CHAR should be 1/1 as none of them really seem to have any use at all, anymore.

 

DEX being 2/1 just seems to be a rather lame attempt to retain some of the old flavour (gvien that it's usefulness has been gutted as it it no longer determinative of OCV/DCV) and to prevent the system from looking too much like the CHAR generation systems you see in online gaming.

 

Moreover by making EGO 1/1 the system makes Mental powers, which were already a pretty dodgy prospect even more unavailing. At one for one the cost of EGO is such that bricks can run around with 30 EGOs for 20 paltry points. It just about makes EGO powers useless.

 

Obviously, the big change is breaking out OCV/DCV into their own CHARs. This seems to echo other systems...see below. This is not too terribly bad of an idea but given that in the examples they are all tied to to the 3/1 DEX ratio why bother anyway? Moreover, this formula makes CSLs basically superfluous, which the rules kinda do anyway.

 

I think that the revision may well be an attempt to turn Champs into more of a "popcorn" game like "Mutants and Masterminds" but it's counterintuitive since I don't know of many 700+ page 2 volume popcoirn games. It doesn't make the system any more accessible, user friendly or understandable just far less interesting and distinctive and much more generic.

 

I'm hoping really that this is all a glitch or a bad dream or an imaginary story as this is a truly horrendous revision. Maybe I will wake up tomorrow and see that is as it was and all is good.

 

I know that, I for one, will no longer pick up Hero products as the system I know and love no longer exists (in certain very meaningful ways) as it has for almsot 30 years!

 

Ah well, at least I still have my memories...and given this revision they will have to do...

 

 

Vigil

[ghost-angel]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

I can understand Steve's stated reasoning that it's made to appeal to subscribers for the online game but it seems to be targeted to a group that really' date=' in its very nature, has no interest in anything but online gaming. [/quote']

 

Steve has NEVER ONCE said Hero 6th Ed was to appeal to subscribers to the online game.

 

NEVER.

 

EVER.

 

He's said the exact opposite on several occasions.

[Vigil]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

Actually, I seem to recall that in one of the 6th Ed prerelease threads that's basically exactly what Steve said. I will try to dig through to find the thread reference.

 

6th Ed was created to attract new fans, I would imagine, from the online world as that was supposed to be the tie in...the advent of the online game and the presumably parallel rules revisions for the 6th Ed.

 

There would certainly be no other rationale for it as anyone who is a fan of 4 color RPGs is already a Champs fan and player, it would seem. if you like superhero RPGs you know about Champions, period.

 

In that way it makes sense...have the online and paper version use the same character generation system.

 

The problem is that I really don't know of a single WOW player who plays D&D and precious few City of Heroes players who hold a similar interest in Champions.

 

It seems to me that the two worlds are very differently targeted while superficially similar. Online gameres simply aren't interested in the type of complexity that pen and paper types bask in.

 

And, if as you assert, Steve never said it, then what is the rationale for the 6th Ed? Just wanted to mess up a system that is already the best system in the gaming world? Was it working too well?

 

It just doesn't make sense as anything but an online tie in promotion.

 

Vigil

[ghost-angel]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

They aren't the same character generation system. They aren't parallel rules. They are NOT the same game.

 

They were developed separately. Cryptic came along AFTER DoJ decided on a go ahead to produce 6th Edition.

 

and as a note: Champions =/= Hero System.

 

Champions is a Genre. Champions Universe is the Setting tied to the Champions Online Computer Game. Champions Online RPG will be released later with a cut down version of the rules as a complete "game" using the Hero System 6th Edition.

 

Hero 6th Edition System is not in any tied to the Champions Online MMO. At All.

 

As for your opinion of 6th Ed, meh - that's your opinion and I've no desire to argue about opinions. I happen to think 6th Ed HERO is an awesome system, and let's me play more and better games.

 

Of course, I didn't start with superheroes when I first played Hero System. So, Champions isn't really what I think of when I think Hero System. I actually kind of really dislike the Champions Genre. It's my last choice of game for the Hero System when someone asks me what I want to play.

 

Whatever your thoughts on the mechanics (and you are certainly entitled to them) the rest of your presumptions are absolute BS and utterly completely and totally false. Way off the mark.

[Stone]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

Technically there aren't any figured Characteristics anymore. The characteristics that were formerly figured are now brought up from a base like the others.

 

So this does away with a core concept that has been with the system from the get go? Sad. Yep, not a fan.

[Stone]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

Jettisoning the Figured CHARs made no sense either.

 

Given the revision it seems that every CHAR should be 1/1 as none of them really seem to have any use at all, anymore.

 

DEX being 2/1 just seems to be a rather lame attempt to retain some of the old flavour (gvien that it's usefulness has been gutted as it it no longer determinative of OCV/DCV) and to prevent the system from looking too much like the CHAR generation systems you see in online gaming.

 

Moreover by making EGO 1/1 the system makes Mental powers, which were already a pretty dodgy prospect even more unavailing. At one for one the cost of EGO is such that bricks can run around with 30 EGOs for 20 paltry points. It just about makes EGO powers useless.

 

Obviously, the big change is breaking out OCV/DCV into their own CHARs. This seems to echo other systems...see below. This is not too terribly bad of an idea but given that in the examples they are all tied to to the 3/1 DEX ratio why bother anyway? Moreover, this formula makes CSLs basically superfluous, which the rules kinda do anyway.

 

 

I'm hoping really that this is all a glitch or a bad dream or an imaginary story as this is a truly horrendous revision. Maybe I will wake up tomorrow and see that is as it was and all is good.

 

 

I have to agree with this.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

Hi Folks,

 

I haven't read all of the posts here or in th other very extensive threads dealing with the 6th Ed but I did pick it up and browse through it (all 700+ pages).

 

Well, at least you looked it over before beginning your criticism. That's a plus.

 

Unfortunately, imo, it's the weakest iteration of the game baring New Millenium, which was an all time low.

 

You're half-right -- Champions: The New Millennium (it seem that while you can read, you do have spelling problems) was a low point.

 

I can understand Steve's stated reasoning that it's made to appeal to subscribers for the online game but it seems to be targeted to a group that really, in its very nature, has no interest in anything but online gaming.

 

At most, I think Steve said that they hoped to capitalize on the MMO to possibly attract new fans. He has never said that the 6e rules were being designed to appeal to those fans. And since you've looked through the rules, point the rules changes that are designed to appeal to MMOers.

 

So, it's basically a situation of abandoning your base in the hopes of finding a broader audience.

 

Trust me, if Hero was going to abandon its base in a quest for a broader audience, Hero 6e would not have been the result. Heck, it's not an uncommon belief that 6e didn't go far enough and catered too much to the core Hero audience.

 

Truly a case of the grass is greener if ever there was one.

 

A conclusion based on fault premises.

 

It seems some of the changes were pretty trivial and some (like Growth) were of the "huh, what th--?" sort (4 points for level of DI and 6 for Shrinking just seems odd and gimmicky somehow) .

 

Well, certainly, not the first time that these powers have been adjusted. One or more of them has changed in each of the 3rd, 4th, 5th, and now, 6th edition. What's wrong with a Power costing 4 or 6 points a level if it produces more balanced results?

 

The size change Powers are tricky because of the characteristics they provide.

 

To me the truly egregious offense came in the dismantling of the CHAR systems, something that has been a bulwark and an insitution right from the get go. Jettisoning the Figured CHARs made no sense either.

 

Okay. I wanted say the Figured Characteristics were jettisoned, they're merely bought up or down from a constant base now rather a variable calculated base. Figured Characteristics have been around since day one and were broken since day one. That's why the rule was added about only selling back one. And have you seen the arguments over the year about how STR and CON gave you for what you paid for them. Not to mention, it isn't all that hard to come up with concepts where the "relationships" between Primary and Figured Characteristics don't hold, so why force them. By decoupling Figured Characteristics, you decide yourself how much PD you should have compared to your STR, just like you decide how much BODY you should have compared to your CON. If you think a relationship should exist between two Characteristics, purchase those Characteristics to reflect it.

 

Given the revision it seems that every CHAR should be 1/1 as none of them really seem to have any use at all, anymore.

 

STR -- Lifting Ability, Damage, Escape from Grabs, etc.

DEX -- Initiative, Agility Skills, DEX Rolls, Dive For Cover

CON -- Amount of STUN taken before being Stunned, CON Rolls

INT -- Intellect Skills, INT Rolls, Perception Rolls

EGO -- "Defense" against Mental Powers (and Presence Attacks), EGO Rolls

PRE -- Presence Attacks, "Defense against Presence Attacks", Interaction Skills

 

Yeah, they all do nothing now. Geesh.

 

DEX being 2/1 just seems to be a rather lame attempt to retain some of the old flavour (gvien that it's usefulness has been gutted as it it no longer determinative of OCV/DCV) and to prevent the system from looking too much like the CHAR generation systems you see in online gaming.

 

DEX is at 2/1 because Steve felt that its role in initiative combined with its other uses warranted the higher cost.

 

And let me get this straight, it's your contention that Steve changed the system to appeal to the MMO players but then set DEX at a price that make it look like he wasn't trying to appeal to MMOers. Yeah, that makes sense.

 

I'm curious what MMO you think that Hero System character generation now resembles (with the exception of DEX).

 

Moreover by making EGO 1/1 the system makes Mental powers, which were already a pretty dodgy prospect even more unavailing. At one for one the cost of EGO is such that bricks can run around with 30 EGOs for 20 paltry points. It just about makes EGO powers useless.

 

With the changes in how Characteristics are purchased, bricks petty much need all of the extra points available in 6e just to remain near the same levels as in 5e, so they are unlikely to have an extra 20 points lying around just to raise their EGO to 30.

 

Obviously, the big change is breaking out OCV/DCV into their own CHARs. This seems to echo other systems...see below. This is not too terribly bad of an idea but given that in the examples they are all tied to to the 3/1 DEX ratio why bother anyway? Moreover, this formula makes CSLs basically superfluous, which the rules kinda do anyway.

 

The examples were conversions from 5e characters that Steve decided not to change too much. Should he have maybe put a little more variety in those characters and their CVs? Probably. But they're just examples. And how does this make CSL superfluous?

 

I think that the revision may well be an attempt to turn Champs into more of a "popcorn" game like "Mutants and Masterminds" but it's counterintuitive since I don't know of many 700+ page 2 volume popcoirn games. It doesn't make the system any more accessible, user friendly or understandable just far less interesting and distinctive and much more generic.

 

So, in other words, changes that make a greater variety of characters possible or, at least, easier to build (by removing largely artificial restrictions in character generation) makes the system less interesting. As for it being more generic, I'm not sure if you're aware of this or not, but Hero has been a generic system for 20 years since 4e was released in the summer of 1989.

 

I'm hoping really that this is all a glitch or a bad dream or an imaginary story as this is a truly horrendous revision. Maybe I will wake up tomorrow and see that is as it was and all is good.

 

Oops. Guess not.

 

I know that, I for one, will no longer pick up Hero products as the system I know and love no longer exists (in certain very meaningful ways) as it has for almsot 30 years!

 

And this is your right as a consumer. I'm pretty sure that Steve and company knew that they would lose some people when they made the decision to create the 6th edition.

 

Ah well, at least I still have my memories...and given this revision they will have to do...

 

Actually, don't you still have copies of older versions of the rules that you can still use?

 

Honestly, you're sounding like those people who cried that their childhoods were being raped because Battlestar Galactica was being remade.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

So this does away with a core concept that has been with the system from the get go? Sad. Yep' date=' not a fan. [/quote']

 

Yes, it does.

 

And brings it in line with one of the key Hero philosophies of getting what you pay for.

 

In the same way that buying large amounts of movement doesn't let you vibrate through walls for free, buying large amounts of STR shouldn't give you large amounts of PD for free.

 

But the arguments in favor of and against Figured Characteristics were made in these forums before and after it was announced that Steve was considering "decoupling" them in 6e. And there is really no need to go through it all again.

[archermoo]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

Actually' date=' I seem to recall that in one of the 6th Ed prerelease threads that's basically exactly what Steve said. I will try to dig through to find the thread reference.[/quote']

 

I'll be very surprised if you can find one, since as ghost-angel has said Steve has actually stated the opposite a number of times. And as also noted, Cryptic came to Hero looking to purchase the Champions Universe IP AFTER they had already decided to make a 6th edition of the rules.

 

According to Steve one of the main driving forces behind a new version of the rules was when he wrote the 5th edition rules, he was writing it for someone else and therefor was required to keep changes in line with what they wanted, rather than what he wanted. When DoJ was formed to purchase the Hero IP they decided to publish 5th edition as it was written at the time, as they wanted/needed to get it into print asap.

 

6e gives Steve the chance to have much freer hand. He and DoJ also have a lot more experience with writing for the Hero System than they did at the start, and a new edition of the rules gives them a chance to put that into action.

[Naanomi]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

EGO -- "Defense" against Mental Powers (and Presence Attacks), EGO Rolls

 

Actually, RJ, I think that EGO has nothing to do with Presence Attacks any more... unless I am reading that wrong.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

The problem is that I really don't know of a single WOW player who plays D&D and precious few City of Heroes players who hold a similar interest in Champions.

 

It seems to me that the two worlds are very differently targeted while superficially similar. Online gameres simply aren't interested in the type of complexity that pen and paper types bask in.

 

I currently run a Champions game and play in both a D&D 3.5 game and a D&D 4.0 game. Combined, 8 people (players plus GM/DMs). Of that total, I am the only one not to play WOW, and six of the eight have played CoH (I think I'm the only one to still have an active account, though it's my kids playing online rather than me).

 

Actually, I get quite irritated when half of the face-to-face gaming time is spent talking over stuff that happened online.

 

But I would hardly say that the two "worlds" (online vs. pen-and-paper) are completely divergent.

[Starlight]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

But I would hardly say that the two "worlds" (online vs. pen-and-paper) are completely divergent.

 

I'm thinking it's not a matter of how many Champions (Hero) players also started to play CoH when it began, but rather how many CoH players subsequently took up playing Hero?

 

The former is not too surprising to me. Champions players obviously like superhero games and CoH hardly strained their brains. Reflexes possibly. Brains no. CoH players clearly like superhero games too, but the mental challenge of Hero System is an order of magnitude greater than CoH.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

I still miss 4th Ed.

 

But I'll give 6th a once-over once it's in print.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

I'm thinking it's not a matter of how many Champions (Hero) players also started to play CoH when it began' date=' but rather how many CoH players subsequently took up playing Hero? [/quote']

 

My daughter's boyfriend plays online games, and has recently started playing D&D, so that's one that went in that direction (online --> pen-and-paper). But I agree it's likely not a huge percentage.

 

Given CO's fairly direct connection to Hero Games, it might make a bit more of a draw, especially if existing Champions players and GMs playing CO talk about their face-to-face games while online. When I played CoH, I talked to some people I teamed with about plots I ran in my Champions games, and one or two seemed interested. I don't know whether or not they ever looked into Champions, but the possibility was there.

 

That said, I don't believe online gaming had anything to do with the creation of 6th Ed. My cynical side says that, in addition to what Steve has said about wanting to fix things he didn't like from when he wrote 5th Ed for the prior owners of the company, a new edition would also draw in more money. Simple business sense, and at least it's not cutthroat screw-the-customer tactics like some products with planned obsolesence, etc. The new version is (reportedly) compatible enough that you don't *need* to replace all your 5th Ed books.

 

Do I own 6th Edition? Not yet. I'll probably buy it in the coming months and check it out. Will I change my campaign over to 6th edition? More than likely not, at least in the short term, since my players are comfortable with 5th and several have said they don't want to change. I suspect there will be things in 6th I like and others I don't (just like I felt with 5th edition).

[Stone]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

Yes, it does.

 

And brings it in line with one of the key Hero philosophies of getting what you pay for.

 

In the same way that buying large amounts of movement doesn't let you vibrate through walls for free, buying large amounts of STR shouldn't give you large amounts of PD for free.

 

But the arguments in favor of and against Figured Characteristics were made in these forums before and after it was announced that Steve was considering "decoupling" them in 6e. And there is really no need to go through it all again.

 

What about DEX? Does it not make sense someone with a high DEX would be quicker and harder to hit in combat? If the figured characteristics SPEED, OCV, & DCV are not based on DEX, then it makes DEX less necessary. In fact, not having figured characteristics reduces the importance of all the primary characteristics used in figured characteristics.

 

I don't view figured characteristics as getting something for free. They are a by-product of the primary characteristics. I disagree with removing them from the game. IMO it removes something that was unique to the system and diminishes the system.

[archermoo]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

What about DEX? Does it not make sense someone with a high DEX would be quicker and harder to hit in combat? If the figured characteristics SPEED, OCV, & DCV are not based on DEX, then it makes DEX less necessary. In fact, not having figured characteristics reduces the importance of all the primary characteristics used in figured characteristics.

 

I don't view figured characteristics as getting something for free. They are a by-product of the primary characteristics. I disagree with removing them from the game. IMO it removes something that was unique to the system and diminishes the system.

 

And with the exception of Strength, all of those former Primaries that impacted the former Figureds now cost less.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

I don't view figured characteristics as getting something for free. They are a by-product of the primary characteristics. I disagree with removing them from the game. IMO it removes something that was unique to the system and diminishes the system.

 

So, why were the Base values calculated from Primaries placed in the same column and treated the same way as the free base of 10 that each Primary got.

 

And incidentally, other systems have Characteristics figured from other Characteristics. Therefore, by definition, it is not unique.

[Stone]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

And with the exception of Strength' date=' all of those former Primaries that impacted the former Figureds now cost less.[/quote']

 

Yes the cost were reduced, but the need for the primaries was also reduced. IMO this in not a good move.

[Stone]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

So, why were the Base values calculated from Primaries placed in the same column and treated the same way as the free base of 10 that each Primary got.

 

And incidentally, other systems have Characteristics figured from other Characteristics. Therefore, by definition, it is not unique.

 

To represent the effects of the primary characteristics. Does it not stand to reason someone who is in real good shape (CON) would be able to exert (END) themselves longer than someone not in good shape, or that the person in good shape would be able to catch their breath quicker (REC)?

 

Yes, I'm sure there are other systems that use figured characteristics. I have played quite a few systems, but I could not recall another system off the top of my head that used figured characteristics.

[archermoo]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

Yes the cost were reduced' date=' but the [i']need[/i] for the primaries was also reduced. IMO this in not a good move.

 

To each their own. I always considered the effect the Primaries had on Figureds to be an annoying side effect and am happy to see the linkage gone. It has annoyed me since I started playing Champions back in '81 and I couldn't be happier that it is gone.

[teh bunneh]

Re: Champions 6th version

 

To represent the effects of the primary characteristics. Does it not stand to reason someone who is in real good shape (CON) would be able to exert (END) themselves longer than someone not in good shape' date=' or that the person in good shape would be able to catch their breath quicker (REC)?[/quote']

 

There is, of course, nothing at all stopping you from buying the END and REC you think your character needs. Indeed, there's less stopping you now, since you can create a high CON character with an abnormally low END and/or REC, if your character concept calls for it (maybe someone who is really fat, who can take a punch in the gut but gets winded walking up a flight of stairs?).

 

Or a nimble and agile character (high DEX) who's not really that much good in a fight (low CV).

 

The more I think about it, the more character concepts this opens up for me. YMMV, of course, but there's nothing that prevents you from buying up all the stats you think you need. If you want a high CON, high END, high ED, high REC, high STUN character, it's still easy enough to make one. Easier, maybe.