Re-introducing COM to 6th Edition

[GamePhil]

Perfectly happy to let this thread die if someone must start another, but it should probably start somewhere. This thread is intended for people who want COM to be returned to their game as a house ruled Characteristic, to share ideas about what place it can play in the game. It is not a place to post arguments for or against its appropriateness in the game for anyone else or as an officially supported rule, so please post such elsewhere.

 

Of course, the easiest thing to do is just port it over as-is from the previous edition, including the Complementary roll. However, I personally think it may be more interesting to have an Appearance characteristic, most likely again complementary to PRE, that functions by special effect and can include things other than being handsome/beautiful. After all, STR can be muscle power or gear power or low-range Telekinetic power, couldn't Comeliness also have different special effects than being good-looking specifically? Or maybe not.

[Markdoc]

Re: Re-introducing COM to 6th Edition

 

Basically as long as Hero designer supports it (and indications are that it will) I'm good. In that case, Striking Appearance becomes redundant in my games, but characters who spent points on COM are still portable to other games: the points spent on COM can be spent on Striking Appearance instead.

 

cheers, Mark

[Trebuchet]

Re: Re-introducing COM to 6th Edition

 

Perfectly happy to let this thread die if someone must start another, but it should probably start somewhere. This thread is intended for people who want COM to be returned to their game as a house ruled Characteristic, to share ideas about what place it can play in the game. It is not a place to post arguments for or against its appropriateness in the game for anyone else or as an officially supported rule, so please post such elsewhere.

 

Of course, the easiest thing to do is just port it over as-is from the previous edition, including the Complementary roll. However, I personally think it may be more interesting to have an Appearance characteristic, most likely again complementary to PRE, that functions by special effect and can include things other than being handsome/beautiful. After all, STR can be muscle power or gear power or low-range Telekinetic power, couldn't Comeliness also have different special effects than being good-looking specifically? Or maybe not.

I know this is heresy in Hero country, but I always thought D&D had something with the general concept of Charisma. Looks can obviously be part of that, but personality and maybe a hint of Presence as well. In fact, I think making only physical appearance the pertinent aspect misses the point: You can see someone is physically attractive, but her personality or airheadedness (think Paris Hilton) can drop her score considerably. Likewise, a 9-year-old girl can be cute as a button, but her age and social mores against such relationships make her less desirable. Likewise, a woman can be sexually and physically attractive, but her constant use of foul language or picking fights with friends and family makes her less than ideal.

 

I would have liked to see COM expanded in 6E; to allow both numbers and descriptors such as "COM 16: Cute as a button" or "COM14: The Girl Next Door" or "COM18: Smokin' Hot Coed" or "COM24: Sex God/Goddess" to pick up those nuances. Looks aren't everything, but they certainly are something. It shouldn't be solely about sexuality; there are plenty of people out there that are cute, or friendly, or that you just like because they have nice personalities. Any of these could rate an increased COM.

[jtelson]

Re: Re-introducing COM to 6th Edition

 

I will likely be porting the Complimentary Roll mechanic to 6th but leaveing it as a Talent. Here's the thread I started before 6th released talking about other possible Appearance applications like 'Face in the Crowd' where it would be aiding in Shadowing and Reducing Int chacks to remember the person

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73289

[ghost-angel]

Re: Re-introducing COM to 6th Edition

 

I would reintroduce Comliness as a 1:1 Skill, similar to Presence, then I would change Interaction Skills a bit.

 

You would have two base rolls - one Presence Based and one Comliness based. Using whichever is the most appropriate in a given situation.

 

F'Rex Charm:

If you're trying to sexually seduce someone to get to them, I would start with a Comliness based Interaction Roll.

If you're trying to charm your way past the front desk and be friendly with someone I would start with a Presence based Interaction Roll.

 

I would play to the strengths of the character in a given situation, in other words.

 

Alternately, I might always use both, but switch up which Characteristic is the Complimentary Roll to the others Interaction Skill Roll.

[Vondy]

Re: Re-introducing COM to 6th Edition

 

If I were to use COM I would....

 

Cost it at 1:1

 

AND...

 

Allow interaction skills to leverage COM instead of PRE where apropos

 

OR....

 

Give it a complimantary roll but have the bonus be +1 per 5 Points of COM.

 

I would also allow COM attacks

 

BUT...

 

I would think real hard about the target preferences/psychology when applying modifiers.

 

That's it.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Re-introducing COM to 6th Edition

 

I personally wouldn't care for COM Attacks, though I do understand how some GMs would want to use them.

 

Raising the cost to 1:1 is a usable idea.

 

I'd use COM Rolls for "when-in-doubt" calls in social interactions, helping determine who the press and the public are more interested in, and NPCs' making choices of targets in combat between two equally valid foes.

 

I'd include a few Appearance Skills, including a return of Seduction as a separate Skill from Charm and a handful of others from my COM-expansion document (I'll post a link later if someone doesn't beat me to it).

 

I'd allow COM to be used as the target for the alternate-Characteristic rules Steve's said will be going into the APG. There are logical ways to have it be the target for Mental Powers, Entangles, and Transforms.

 

I'd include Social Combat Values (OSCV and DSCV) as optional Characteristics for dealing with attacks based on either PRE or COM. Just offhand, the price would probably be similar to OMCV and DMCV.

 

That's just for starters.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Re-introducing COM to 6th Edition

 

I'll cross-post this from the other thread (the one becoming a bit of a slugfest). If I re-introduced Com, I'd probably either keep it at 5ER cost or make it zero points. Then:

 

Here's another idea for a House Rule or potential system direction at some point. Define for any particular encounter/situation, a "base point" or expected value for Com, and a direction. For every 5 full points from the base point in the chosen direction, you get a +1 to applicable social rolls. For every 5 full points from the base point in the opposite direction, you get a -1 to applicable social rolls. Certain situations could also have an optimal RANGE rather than a base point, and for every 5 full points you are outside this range (in either direction) you get -1 to applicable social rolls. If the range is large enough, you may even get a bonus for being close to its center (say, +1 for every 5 full points you are away from the closest endpoint of the range).

 

Examples:

 

• Orc Lair (0-) - It's a cultural thing. The uglier the better. If half your face is burned away, don't go near the women.
  
• Biker Bar (8-) - A few scars, uncut hair, and B.O. is the norm here, and the worse you look the more respect you seem to be given. No pretty boys. Come dressed in a suit and you're likely to leave with it stuffed someplace unpleasant....
  
• Gaming Shop (5-15) - What do you expect from a bunch of geeks? Look too bad and you'll be the laughing stock of the laughing stocks. Look too good and people will start feeling uncomfortable and out of place, in a location that was supposed to be their nerdy sanctuary....
  
• Courtroom (12+) - Better be dressed well, and not look like a criminal.
  
• Ballroom (15+) - You're sure as heck not supposed to look average. Be either dressed to kill or ready to be shunned.
  
• Beauty Pageant (20+) - Everyone sneers at you if you look even close to "average".

 

Maybe even define the basepoint/direction/range separately for different genders in a setting.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Re-introducing COM to 6th Edition

 

Of course, I was pretty happy with Com as it was in any case. In many games I do Skill rolls more like in WoD games: you purchase the Skill as a bonus that adds to whatever Characteristic roll (or a flat +2 if none are applicable) is appropriate for the current task. So for first-time encounters and such I'd have people roll things like Com+Seduction (to make a good first impression), Com+Conversation (to worm your way into a conversation), straight Com if you are being observed and haven't had a chance to actively woo someone with your awesome charisma (Presence), etc.

[GamePhil]

Re: Re-introducing COM to 6th Edition

 

Odd Thoughts No One Will Use

Posting these mainly in case it sparks a better idea than I am able to express.

 

I. Sub-PRE

For this first one, apologies to Hugh, whose thoughts on the matter made me think of this but I blame my own mind for warping it so horribly:

 

Take Presence and break it down into two or more different sub categories. So, for instance, Impressiveness (IMP) and COM. For any given use of PRE, add all of the sub categories up that apply (or to get really out there, average them) to figure out how much applies.

 

So, you might have:

PRE 20

IMP 15

COM 5

 

Use them all unless the use is inappropriate. Most people are impressed by good looks, for instance, whether they are attracted to you otherwise or not, so it would normally count, but wouldn't for an alien life form (maybe, lots of work out there has them affected as well) or someone that's jealous of your good looks.

 

You could also break the COM down still further, say, on the basis of what sense it affects. So, Smell COM for smelling nice wouldn't work on someone with no sense of smell, Looks wouldn't work on the blind.

 

II. Bonus to PRE for using Casual PRE.

 

While PRE Attacks are 0 Phase Actions, they do still require doing something. Casual PRE would be a way to use it just when you walk into a room, to make an immediate impression just because you have that special something. COM would naturally add to this, possibly causing jaws to drop and so on. So, aside from some rolls being based on it, it could add 1/10 points up to full normal PRE for this purpose. So, a character with 50 PRE and 30 COM would have an 8d6 Casual PRE Attack.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Re-introducing COM to 6th Edition

 

Here is the article I was referring to above.

[nexus]

Re: Re-introducing COM to 6th Edition

 

After all' date=' STR can be muscle power or gear power or low-range Telekinetic power, couldn't Comeliness also have different special effects than being good-looking specifically? [/quote']

 

I've always assumed it could and did. The name "Comeliness" is somewhat prejudicial but I've alway interpreted the Character to mean aesthetic appeal or similar effect that has a game mechanics impact.

 

I've had characters define their Com as "a subtle psionic field that nudges people to like me though I am quite plain" to "I kind of homely but in a cute "Hollywood" way that charms people and they find it disarming". As long as they could convince me that their definition fell without the bounds of Com (or whatever's) mechanical effect I was good with it.

 

Edit: Even a different description is, IMO, a different sfx of Comeliness. Brad Pitt does not have the same Comeliness as a beautiful Arabian stallion.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Re-introducing COM to 6th Edition

 

I will not be re-introducing COM, but that is not going to stop me suggesting various ways in which it could be done.

 

1. Simply re-introduce COM, 1 character point for 2 COM, use it as you did before. Bingo. Simple, starightforward, and if you really loved COM, well, here it is without any mucking about.

 

2. Treat it as limited PRE. Doh! That's Striking Appearance.

 

3. Er...

 

4. Decide what it is you actually want COM to accomplish, and build that. Here's what I imagine people want it to do, but what do I know?

 

COM should act to influence to interaction skills but, more than that, should act to influence others even when interactions skills are not actively in use. Someone who is particularly good looking might attract the attention of a waiter who might, hoping for some favour, provide a better table than he would for uglier customers.

 

COM should not provide a definite or set bonus as the very nature of appearance is that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

The advantage of a characteristic is that EVERYONE has a measure of it, which means that the mechanic that controls COM may well mean that even someone of plain appearance could be particularly attractive to someone. A Talent build would tend to only have mechanical relevance to those who buy the Talent. The obvious answer to that, if you go the Talent route, is to make Appearance/COM an everyman Talent. We shall see...now if you are going to introduce a characteristic, you might as well go with COM as was and have done with it. So I'm not going to go that route: it has been done.

 

OK, here I go.

 

COM (as a Talent)

 

Appearance: Luck 1d6 (5 Active Points); Requires A Roll (8- roll; -1 1/4), Limited Power Power loses about half of its effectiveness (Only to affect situations where appearance is a factor; -1)

 

OK: that is the everyman version. It has two components that affect effectiveness: first off the number of Luck dice, because the more Luck dice the more potential effect your looks have, second the Requires A Roll level because the higher the number the more often your looks will come into play.

 

Luck can be used to give bonuses to rolls, if you like (the Guard is particularly keen on short redheads, and so is better disposed towards your requests...have +2 on your first interaction roll) OR it could be more of a 'script writer' power, not affecting the game mechanically but instead allowing you to gain some advantage (sitting alone at the bar, you're approached by an attractive woman who offers to buy you a drink. You get chatting and she tells you you're much better looking than her boyfriend, and she's not into VIPER uniforms anyway *hick*).

 

It is far more flexible than simply a complementary skill roll.

 

I also suspect that many people like COM because it is finely graded (even if those fine grades are meaningless in terms of actual mechanical effect) and so allow comparisons of relative attractiveness. Personally I'm so set against such an idea that I find it difficult to rationally express myself on the subject, but I'll try and work it in, as an excercise in futility...er...intellectual flexibility.

 

Your appearance is judged and compared by looking at both HOW effective your looks are when they come into play (the number of dice of Luck) AND how often they activate (i.e. how wide an audience your looks appeal to) That should allow some pretty fine graduation and subtlety.

 

You can, of course, buy the talent in other ways, and pay moe to make it more effective: you might simply buy 'Luck' straight and explain all teh fortunate things in terms of your looks, even if that has no obvious bearing. I'm too pretty to die! Also you can buy the talent multiple times to reflect different aspects of your attractiveness, not all of then necessarily looks based - it could also be about assertiveness, self confidence, body language or whatever - the sfx help to define the situations in which the talent comes into play (as well as the 'Looks based' limitation - which can be changed to suit).

 

The Luck table will gibe some idea of the sort of bonuses you might expect.

 

SFX: You have to define Note that 'plain' looks might cause you to be overlooked when someone is searching for you in a crowd, or might make it difficult for a witness to recall your features, and you can define your look as menacing - which might give you an advantage in various situations where simply being attractive either would not help or might even be a hinderance.

 

For the character who is always getting into trouble because of good looks (I always seem to attract the wrong sort...) there are the Complications:

 

Distinctive Features: Gorgeous - always noticed

 

Hunted: Papparazzi

 

Negative Reputation: Dumb Blonde

 

Rivalry: The partner of anyone of the opposite sex you talk to (I say, that's my wife you're eyeing up!)

 

Social Complication: Ginger

 

Now Luck is a bit of a 'passive' power - it tends to come in when the GM wants it to (which IMO is quite good for something appearance based) and so should probably be enhanced by extra PRE or Interaction skill levels with an 'appearance based' limitation.

 

Anyway, that's what I think.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Re-introducing COM to 6th Edition

 

Everyman PRE-based Power Skill (Attractiveness).

[gojira]

Re: Re-introducing COM to 6th Edition

 

Perfectly happy to let this thread die if someone must start another' date=' but it should probably start somewhere. [/quote']

 

My first thought was: re-introduce COM by having it start the level defined by Steve's conversion notes (currently stickied at the top of this forum). Then allow players to buy COM up or down 5 points at 0.5 CP per point. Use COM as a tie breaker or complementary roll for Striking Appearance rolls.

[nexus]

Re: Re-introducing COM to 6th Edition

 

My first thought was: re-introduce COM by having it start the level defined by Steve's conversion notes (currently stickied at the top of this forum). Then allow players to buy COM up or down 5 points at 0.5 CP per point. Use COM as a tie breaker or complementary roll for Striking Appearance rolls.

 

Not to sound argumentative but wouldn't the last work a little better the other way around: Striking Appearance as a modifier to Comeliness. I think if someone took this approach they might want to limited Striking App to the 2 point level only, defined a little more narrowly as a bonus against specific people or in certain situation. This could also address the issue some had with Com being too universal for their sense of disbelief.

[Beast]

Re: Re-introducing COM to 6th Edition

 

I like this one

you can boost it with extra levels(small group to represent good looks and/or buy up your Pre for personality

 

 

Everyman PRE-based Power Skill (Attractiveness).

[Kdansky]

Re: Re-introducing COM to 6th Edition

 

Think of what you want Comliness to achieve, then build that. "Being cute" is no valid definition of a power in HERO.

 

I suggest building it as limited PRE, since that seems very simple, elegant and does exactly what I imagine comliness to do. It amuses me greatly that I can write this as a totally serious and 100% honest suggestion

[Beast]

Re: Re-introducing COM to 6th Edition

 

depends having a high Com might get you tossed into the harem if the character is female and the big bad is a womanizer etc...

Where you might have a better chance of freeing your friends than rotting in a cell

I would not call it a front line power

But then Pre attacks should only be used on mooks and the unwashed rabble

At best a Pre attack should only give the heroes pause once so the master villian can either get in a sucker punch or escape death or capture

 

 

Think of what you want Comliness to achieve, then build that. "Being cute" is no valid definition of a power in HERO.

 

I suggest building it as limited PRE, since that seems very simple, elegant and does exactly what I imagine comliness to do. It amuses me greatly that I can write this as a totally serious and 100% honest suggestion

[Trebuchet]

Re: Re-introducing COM to 6th Edition

 

Think of what you want Comliness to achieve, then build that. "Being cute" is no valid definition of a power in HERO.

 

I suggest building it as limited PRE, since that seems very simple, elegant and does exactly what I imagine comliness to do. It amuses me greatly that I can write this as a totally serious and 100% honest suggestion

Why does everything have to be a "power" in Hero? That was half my problem with the entire "dump COM" idea in the first place; the presumption that because it didn't provide some sort of official black-and-white printed +/- bonus then it couldn't have any place in the game. This is a role playing game; if something enhances role-playing then it can be perfectly valid without having a mechanism.

 

There were plenty of people who liked and used COM; you seem to be presuming that because you don't see it that way that those who did were wrong. Hero Designer and most variants of character sheets provide a space for a description and picture, even height and weight. If those are valid to include with a character writeup despite having no mechanical basis in the system, then why not Comeliness?

 

Despite your ringing endorsement of the official method, extra PRE bought with Limitations =/= attractiveness.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Re-introducing COM to 6th Edition

 

Despite your ringing endorsement of the official method' date=' extra PRE bought with Limitations =/= attractiveness.[/quote']

 

So write a number of the character sheet from 1to 30 that represents the character's attractiveness or however else you choose to describe it. That can then be used like any other special effect in combination with things with Striking Appearance and other modifiers.

 

Like character pictures and descriptions, it does not need to be a game mechanic to have an effect.

[nexus]

Re: Re-introducing COM to 6th Edition

 

With respect to the OP

 

Perfectly happy to let this thread die if someone must start another' date=' but it should probably start somewhere. This thread is intended for people who want COM to be returned to their game as a house ruled Characteristic, to share ideas about what place it can play in the game.[b'] It is not a place to post arguments for or against its appropriateness in the game for anyone else or as an officially supported rule, so please post such elsewhere.[/b]

 

Emphasis mine. For both sides of the debate. I can't be as active in the thread as I'd like I don't want to see it to turn into yet another Com war.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Re-introducing COM to 6th Edition

 

RJ,

 

Seems to me we're both out of place here in this thread, which is titled "Re-introducing COM to 6th Edition".

 

You have no interest in doing so, so why are you even posting here except to be contentious?

 

And I have no intention of using 6E, so I don't need to figure ways to reintroduce something that still exists in 5E.

 

I don't know about you, but I'm done here.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Re-introducing COM to 6th Edition

 

Why does everything have to be a "power" in Hero? That was half my problem with the entire "dump COM" idea in the first place; the presumption that because it didn't provide some sort of official black-and-white printed +/- bonus then it couldn't have any place in the game. This is a role playing game; if something enhances role-playing then it can be perfectly valid without having a mechanism.

 

Steve stated somewhere that "a thing that enhances the effect of a Characteristic" is a Talent, not a Characteristic.

 

There were plenty of people who liked and used COM; you seem to be presuming that because you don't see it that way that those who did were wrong. Hero Designer and most variants of character sheets provide a space for a description and picture, even height and weight. If those are valid to include with a character writeup despite having no mechanical basis in the system, then why not Comeliness?

 

If I recall correctly there's usually a space for "Appearance", in which you can write whatever you want.

 

Treb, I was one of the defenders of COM. I even had it in my signature here for a while. But the fight is over.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Re-introducing COM to 6th Edition

 

Steve stated somewhere that "a thing that enhances the effect of a Characteristic" is a Talent, not a Characteristic.

 

If I recall correctly there's usually a space for "Appearance", in which you can write whatever you want.

 

Treb, I was one of the defenders of COM. I even had it in my signature here for a while. But the fight is over.

I know, Chris, and I appreciate that. Permit me to grieve a bit for Comeliness lost before I take off the black mourning armband.