How to build MMA Style Martial Arts

[The Main Man]

Re: How to build MMA Style Martial Arts

 

I couldn't personally comment on that since I started with 5e but I find the 5e grappling rules to work just fine but OTOH I haven't seen the 4e grappling rules.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: How to build MMA Style Martial Arts

 

My problem with the 5th grabbing rules is that you become half dcv vs the person you are grabbing. (I could be wrong , but I don't think this was in 4th.) I CAN see a negative perhaps -2 but HALF? Why would want to grab anyone when it makes you that much easier to hit? I my experience, with a proper grab, you can protect yourself fairly well from the person you are holding from a counter atack. Of course ymmv and all that.

[Bloodstone]

Re: How to build MMA Style Martial Arts

 

My problem with the 5th grabbing rules is that you become half dcv vs the person you are grabbing. (I could be wrong ' date=' but I don't think this was in 4th.) I CAN see a negative perhaps -2 but HALF? Why would want to grab anyone when it makes you that much easier to hit? I my experience, with a proper grab, you can protect yourself fairly well from the person you are holding from a counter atack. Of course ymmv and all that.[/quote']

 

Depends somewhat on how strong/skilled of a grappler you are relative to your opponent. You suffer lesser penalties when you are sufficiently strong or skilled (+20 STR compared to opponent)

 

But most people can't readily attack you when you grab them because you can immobilize both of their primary attacking limbs. If they can attack, they are at reduced OCV (-3 if I recall)

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: How to build MMA Style Martial Arts

 

Bloodstone's right... -3 OCV if the Grabbee can attack the Grabber at all (5ER, p. 388).

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: How to build MMA Style Martial Arts

 

Depends somewhat on how strong/skilled of a grappler you are relative to your opponent. You suffer lesser penalties when you are sufficiently strong or skilled (+20 STR compared to opponent)

 

I forgot about that, but wasn't it an option?

 

But most people can't readily attack you when you grab them because you can immobilize both of their primary attacking limbs. If they can attack, they are at reduced OCV (-3 if I recall)

 

But then the other thing is (for me) it adds extra math that I wouldn't like to do on the fly, and when I GM I am generous with allowing variable attacks. Remeber the example of the Harbringer of Justice?

 

Side note has anyone figured out how to custom talent groundfighting to ignore the penalties?

[OddHat]

Re: How to build MMA Style Martial Arts

 

+10 STR

+2 OCV

+4d6 HA, special effect: Crotch Punch.

+10 PRE, special effect: Shaved head and lots of tats

Striking Appearance: Low Body Fat

[Netzilla]

Re: How to build MMA Style Martial Arts

 

Side note has anyone figured out how to custom talent groundfighting to ignore the penalties?

 

Official way to counter the OCV penalty:

PS: Groundfighting (DEX-based) (3 points) -- If you make the roll, you don't take the OCV penalty

 

My preferred way to counter the OCV penalty:

+2 PSL vs Groundfighting Penalties with [insert Martial Art] (4 Active Points), Only vs one specified oppoenent in grappling (-2) (1 Real Cost)

 

To counter the 1/2 DCV:

+X DCV: Only to counter Groundfighting penalty (-1), Only vs one specified opponent in grappling (-2)

X = your base DCV

 

If you want to make it a general talent that just anyone can take, then you'll need to decide how much extra DCV is enough. Say you're running a Heroic campaign where the average DCV is 6, then you could structure the Groundfighting talent as follows:

 

+2 PSL vs Groundfighting Penalties with Judo (4 Active Points), Only vs one specified opponent in grappling (-2) (1 Real Cost)

+6 DCV (30 Active Points): Only to counter Groundfighting penalty (-1), Only vs one specified oppoenent in grappling (-2) (8 Real Cost)

Total cost for the Talent = 9 points and you'll be at full OCV and DCV vs one specific person (most likely the one you're grappling with).

 

Adjust the Limitations up or down if you're not comfortable with the cost.

[Bloodstone]

Re: How to build MMA Style Martial Arts

 

I forgot about that' date=' but wasn't it an option?[/quote']

 

hmmm... it might be. I don't have the book in front of me to check.

 

Side note has anyone figured out how to custom talent groundfighting to ignore the penalties?

 

I always thought it should be considered a type of Environmental Movement.

[Netzilla]

Re: How to build MMA Style Martial Arts

 

+10 STR

+2 OCV

+4d6 HA, special effect: Crotch Punch.

+10 PRE, special effect: Shaved head and lots of tats

Striking Appearance: Low Body Fat

 

Obviously not designed with Roy Nelson or Tank Abbot in mind.

[OddHat]

Re: How to build MMA Style Martial Arts

 

Obviously not designed with Roy Nelson or Tank Abbot in mind.

 

That's why there's no level given; it's optional.

[megaplayboy]

Re: How to build MMA Style Martial Arts

 

"Deceptively sloppy-looking": -2 to Analyze: Style rolls

 

Seriously, most MMA fights I've watched looked incredibly sloppy, although the techniques used were highly effective.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: How to build MMA Style Martial Arts

 

Thank you Netzilla !

[mwiggins]

Re: How to build MMA Style Martial Arts

 

1. Martial Arts competitions of any kind are not really about self-defense (even Bruce Lee tells the reader in The Tao of Jeet Kune Do to run away at the first chance)

Karake has a basic philosiphy called "The Twenty Guiding Principles of Karate" LINK

2. There is no first strike in karate

[Bloodstone]

Re: How to build MMA Style Martial Arts

 

"Deceptively sloppy-looking": -2 to Analyze: Style rolls

 

Seriously, most MMA fights I've watched looked incredibly sloppy, although the techniques used were highly effective.

 

I can agree with this somewhat, but think it would depend on the tone of the campaign and how MMA was being handled.

 

It always a lot easier to pick out what style somone practices in a movie than in an actual brawl. The more a given fight approaches reality, the less stylized it becomes. But I think most games would tend to go for a somewhat "cinematic" version of MMA, as opposed to a direct grim and gritty mirror of the UFC.

 

With that in mind, it would be pretty easy to figure out somone has trained specifically for MMA, even if it wasn't as easy to figure out all the components that make up their game. But again, cinematic martial arts being what it is, you might want people to recognize those differences easily.

 

I also don't know that I would use the word "sloppy" in general. It's true that many MMA fighters are rather mediocre technicians that don't excel at any one aspect of the game, but the best of the best (and certain specialist) are very smooth and crisp. Takes a trained eye to appreciate the subtitles sometimes though. I didn't think much of boxing when I was a young black belt, but after I took some lessons I was in awe of the movement and technique used by some of the greats... and more than a little ashamed about my previous assumptions...

 

When watching MMA you can still generally pick out a fighters style(s) or at least his influences. If a fighter makes heavy use of Rubber Guard, for example, you know he's either affiliated with 10th Planet Jiu Jutsu or has trained with somone that was influenced by them. But that's a fairly recent group of techniques that was previously associated with a single gym...

 

That's the catch really. There's a very wide range of techniques used in MMA, the fighters are almost all very heavily crosstrained and just about everyone is hunting DVD's and the internet looking for another technique that fits their game and gives them an edge.

 

I know a guy that used to train Couture, but from watching him fight you'd NEVER guess that The Natural ever worked with a judo coach. I wouldn't have guessed and the guy Randy trained with is my sensei

[Bloodstone]

Re: How to build MMA Style Martial Arts

 

Karake has a basic philosiphy called "The Twenty Guiding Principles of Karate" LINK

2. There is no first strike in karate

 

Yes, well... Funakoshi was a great man, but his applications of Karate, which he was teaching to school children and eventually in a post war Japan... well, they are presumably a very different animal from the art of the men that taught him.

 

Also, some days I rather hate wikipedia

[Bloodstone]

Re: How to build MMA Style Martial Arts

 

So what's my point again?I am saying that MMA is misconcieved' date=' and that their application to self-defense is one of them.[/quote']

 

I've seen this argument a hundred times. I think it is somewhat true, but it's a matter of perspective and intent.

 

You should not train for a life or death encounter in the exact manner in which you train for a sporting event. That's a good way to get yourself killed. Then again, the way many self defense oriented martial arts schools teach is also a good way to get yourself killed.

 

Lets look at two examples...

 

Joe Blackbelt - has trained in an art that teaches entirely through kata and prearranged sequences. He may not even know how some techniques are intended to be used if his instructor does not have a firm grasp of the bunkai, which no two masters can agree on anyhow. Joe's techniqes are performed against focus mitts or an stationary makiwara or heavy bag. Sparring, after all, leads to bad "sport" habits that could get you killed in a real encounter! Joe trains hard: Hours of stance work, kata and prearranged sequences with well trained ukes. They know all the same techniques, know how to fall right and generally make each other look quite good. Joe knows hundreds of different ways to maim, cripple or kill a man. He has the fastest eye gouge in class and one hell of a snap kick to the groin. He's never actually had to use any of them and he's told that he should be grateful if he never does. Joe is very confident of his ability because he has a black belt, the praise of his peers and a fancy certificate saying how righteously awesome he is.

 

Chris Competitor - has trained extensively in some blend of arts with the intent of competing in MMA. It's a grueling workout: hours of conditioning, seemingly endless drilling of technique axtensive work on the heavy bag or with the mitts. Chris knows the aplications for all his techniques becuase he drills them every class. And after drills are done, it's time for live sparring. He uses strikes, takedowns and submission holds against live, fully resisting opponents. They are all moving at full speed and using all of their skill and power to make the other guy tap first. No one cares how it looks, just how well it works. Nothing is prearranged, so you have to be ready for almost anything. Chris has proved to everyone that he can strike with the best of them, he can slip a punch, block a kick, escape from countless holds and bad positions. He can take a hit and keep going and he's learned how to work through pain and fatigue. He knows a ton of submissions, including how far he can take any of them before he hurts or kills someone. He doesn't bother learning things he has no intention of using. Chris is very confident of his ability because he knows exactly what he can do if he needs to.

 

So, assuming all other things were equal, who would you honestly put your money on in a street fight?

 

Now I admit, those were two somewhat extreme examples (though I could have gone much further in either direction). The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle of there. Lets be honest, there absolutely ARE some techniques that will end a fight almost instantly and that you can't exactly train safely in anything approaching a realistic manner. But who's more likely to successfully pull one of those techniques off in a real fight?

 

I've been Joe and I've been Chris. I'm still pretty young, so maybe I'll change my mind somewhere down the road as to what approach is "better". But they aren't teaching BJJ in the military because they think Al-Qaeda has a smooth armbar and an dominant ground game. They are teaching it because of all the other attributes it can build in our soldiers in the process! Well, and because it reduces the likely hood that a bunch of Jarheads will maim each other or a bunch of civilians in bar fight

 

Ok, that was long winded... I should probably bow out before Rapier gets all "I told you so!" to the thread...

[Netzilla]

Re: How to build MMA Style Martial Arts

 

I also don't know that I would use the word "sloppy" in general. It's true that many MMA fighters are rather mediocre technicians that don't excel at any one aspect of the game' date=' but the best of the best (and certain specialist) are very smooth and crisp. [/quote']

 

Machida, Andersen Silva and George St. Piere being very obvious examples.

 

And with grappling (which is almost never pretty to those unused to watching it) a lot of MMA fighters will look clumsy and uncoordinated. After all, almost all grappling is about unbalancing your foe and not many folks can look graceful while being tossed on their head or shoved into the cage. Look at the Frank Mir/Brock Lesnar fight. Frank is far from clumsy and unskilled but with Brock laying on top of him Frank looked clueless.

[Bloodstone]

Re: How to build MMA Style Martial Arts

 

I know megaplayboy has trained in Muay Thai (rather extensively if I recall) and other striking arts, so he might be coming from that angle.

 

I know I'm not a fan of a lot of the haymakers that get used by many MMA fighters, including some very successful big names.

 

And there's a significant number of fighters that have godawful kicks, but at least some of that comes from fear of being taken down.

[megaplayboy]

Re: How to build MMA Style Martial Arts

 

I know megaplayboy has trained in Muay Thai (rather extensively if I recall) and other striking arts, so he might be coming from that angle.

 

I know I'm not a fan of a lot of the haymakers that get used by many MMA fighters, including some very successful big names.

 

And there's a significant number of fighters that have godawful kicks, but at least some of that comes from fear of being taken down.

 

Yeah, I've also had exposure to boxing and karate and have observed some judo and other formalized arts. There's such an emphasis on clean, quick and efficient technique that observing MMA can induce some wincing, since the techniques are quick and efficient but not necessarily clean. But if the other guy's not trained to defend against those haymakers, then they can be highly effective.

Striking arts at their most effective involve committing your full body weight to the strike, which would tend to make one vulnerable to takedowns and counterstrikes if one's timing is off.

 

WRT sport vs. real fighting, it's true that some of the banned techniques, such as biting and eye gouging, would likely have some degree of effectiveness in a real fight. The problem is, the only way to really practice them would either involve getting into illegal street fights repeatedly, or committing mayhem in a dojo/kwoon/gym. I have heard an anecdote about an MMA fight ending immediately due to an accidental eye jab...and a takedown attempt being stopped cold (attacker knocked cold) by a perfectly placed and timed knee to the chin. The ideal training for real world combat is probably somewhere in between dojo formalism and mma sport training...

[Netzilla]

Re: How to build MMA Style Martial Arts

 

Yeah' date=' I've also had exposure to boxing and karate and have observed some judo and other formalized arts. There's such an emphasis on clean, quick and efficient technique that observing MMA can induce some wincing, since the techniques are quick and efficient but not necessarily clean.[/quote']

 

Yeah, but you've got to admit that Judo techs pulled off in Judo competitions don't look nearly so pretty as they do during a Judo demo and I'm saying this as someone who's primary art was Judo; and that's with Judo refs not giving points for poorly-executed techniques.

 

Even many striking arts often have rules about the quality of the technique used in their own competitions. I've heard of folks losing points in various striking comps because they used some other style of striking (like boxing) even when hitting legal target areas. MMA focuses purely on the effect of the technique rather than how it looks, so you don't have to worry nearly so much about "presentation".

 

But if the other guy's not trained to defend against those haymakers, then they can be highly effective.

Striking arts at their most effective involve committing your full body weight to the strike, which would tend to make one vulnerable to takedowns and counterstrikes if one's timing is off.

All true. Also, there seems to be a current trend of much more competent strikers coming up in the ranks and those guys that are relying elusively on bombs are either getting out pointed and decisioned, or picked apart and KOed. Brawlers don't do as well as they did even 4 years ago.

 

WRT sport vs. real fighting, it's true that some of the banned techniques, such as biting and eye gouging, would likely have some degree of effectiveness in a real fight.

They make handy distractions. Unforutnately, too many self defense classes I've seen treat these moves as fight enders in and of themselves.

 

The problem is, the only way to really practice them would either involve getting into illegal street fights repeatedly, or committing mayhem in a dojo/kwoon/gym. I have heard an anecdote about an MMA fight ending immediately due to an accidental eye jab...

I saw the fight you're referring to. It was the 3rd or 4th time the fighter had been jabbed in the eye. The sad thing was that the person doing the jabbing wasn't DQed but was actually awarded the fight for sticking his finger into the other guy's eye almost half-way up the digit. The problem was the that the guy wasn't closing his fist when he jabbed. They weren't deliberately aimed shots. The one that ended the fight was a sloppy uppercut just as the other guy ducked his head. Guess who won the rematch.

 

and a takedown attempt being stopped cold (attacker knocked cold) by a perfectly placed and timed knee to the chin.

I've seen that a few times and I've seen the attempt tried and failed far more often. Generally it's been most successful against wrestlers getting predictable with their timing, failing to throw strikes to set up the shot and then shooting from too far out without keeping their hands up on the way in. I've also seen wrestlers knock themselves out by hitting their own head on the mat during a slam. Effective way to end a fight but I wouldn't rely on it.

 

The ideal training for real world combat is probably somewhere in between dojo formalism and mma sport training...

And involve weapons (which MMA definately doesn't cover).

[Bloodstone]

Re: How to build MMA Style Martial Arts

 

I saw the fight you're referring to. It was the 3rd or 4th time the fighter had been jabbed in the eye. The sad thing was that the person doing the jabbing wasn't DQed but was actually awarded the fight for sticking his finger into the other guy's eye almost half-way up the digit. The problem was the that the guy wasn't closing his fist when he jabbed. They weren't deliberately aimed shots. The one that ended the fight was a sloppy uppercut just as the other guy ducked his head. Guess who won the rematch.

 

Gerard Gordeau intentionally eye gouged Yuki Nakai about 15 years back in Japan. In fact, if I remember the fight correctly he did it twice in the course of the fight. You can see him pull the glove away from his thumb before he drives it into Nakai's eye.

 

After the gouge, the fight went on for a while. Gerard got warned, but not DQed. Nakai eventually won via submission, but he had to fight Rickson Gracie later on the evening. He lost that fight... and vision in his right eye.

 

Most people aren't that tough, but this was a sporting event not a life or death confrontation...

 

And involve weapons (which MMA definately doesn't cover).

 

Traditional MMA doesn't cover it, but it can still build the attributes that will translate to better overall combat ability. And many instructors teach more than just MMA.

 

I've seen guys that do extensive weapons works that have no idea how to fight against real weapons. I've trained with champion WEKAF fighters (padded point sparring with sticks) and Dog Brothers style full contact stick fighters (which is basically MMA with rattan sticks) that would be murdered if we used real knives.

 

The potential to develop bad habits needs to be addressed with "proper" training for a given scenario. Of course, what constitutes proper is a whole nother can 'o worms

[OddHat]

Re: How to build MMA Style Martial Arts

 

In a predatory attack, you're likely to face two or more attackers who will come at you by surprise. If one or both of them are armed, you're likely to already be stabbed or shot before you know you're in a fight, at which point you soon won't be.

 

Monkey dancing (posturing and threats for social position) is also a different story.

 

Of course there are all sorts of scenarios, and of course good training can make a significant difference. I've survived muggings and armed attacks without serious injury, mostly by good luck and quick feet; I acknowledge that it happens. Still, dojo tales of invincibility tend to ring hollow.

 

You are not living in an action movie. No matter what your training, when you see the street gang, leave.

 

You have not spent points on knocking bullets out of the air.

[torchwolf]

Re: How to build MMA Style Martial Arts

 

In a predatory attack, you're likely to face two or more attackers who will come at you by surprise. If one or both of them are armed, you're likely to already be stabbed or shot before you know you're in a fight, at which point you soon won't be.

 

Monkey dancing (posturing and threats for social position) are also a different story.

 

Of course there are all sorts of scenarios, and of course good training can make a significant difference. I've survived muggings and armed attacks without serious injury, mostly by good luck and quick feet; I acknowledge that it happens. Still, dojo tales of invincibility tend to ring hollow.

 

You are not living in an action movie. No matter what your training, when the street gang starts moving towards you, leave.

 

You have not spent points on knocking bullets out of the air.

 

Completely OT by now:

The most important factor of survivability in any situation is the ability to perceive when to run away.

When I was much younger, I managed to avoid a few fights with street gangs by virtue of PRE Attack, but neither the weapons in circulation nor the drugs used were as serious as they are nowadays.

Anticipation and timing doesn't count for more than a few select one-on-one situations IRL.

[megaplayboy]

Re: How to build MMA Style Martial Arts

 

One of my instructors, the late Alex Gong, was killed chasing down a guy who stole his car. When he caught up to the vehicle on foot and broke the window with his elbow, the frightened car thief shot and fatally wounded him. The car thief, a convicted felon, committed suicide before he was apprehended by police.

 

You never know all the facts of a situation, so discretion is the better part of valor.

[torchwolf]

Re: How to build MMA Style Martial Arts

 

One of my instructors, the late Alex Gong, was killed chasing down a guy who stole his car. When he caught up to the vehicle on foot and broke the window with his elbow, the frightened car thief shot and fatally wounded him. The car thief, a convicted felon, committed suicide before he was apprehended by police.

 

You never know all the facts of a situation, so discretion is the better part of valor.

 

I'm sorry, that's a very true and tragic example of IRL.

 

You are completely right in this. When I was working at a bar, more than once I grabbed people with broken bottles aiming for my co-workers, but I managed to get lucky and not suffer for it. I could as easily have been cut through the spleen or something like it if I'd been unlucky.

If it had been up to just me, I would've just stayed away from such situations.