6E: Contagious Disease?

[Steve]

If you were to model the effect of a contagious disease using 6E, how would you do it?

[prestidigitator]

Re: 6E: Contagious Disease?

 

Sticky is still alive, but it is quite explicit that only one level of transference occurs. Hmm. Maybe a Triggered power that automatically resets (possibly with Sticky on top?).... Otherwise I think a MegaScaled AoE (on the continental or planetary order or magnitude, depending on common methods of travel in the setting) attack with a limitation that those affected don't start to suffer the ill effects until they are actually exposed.

 

Of course, there's still the argument that most diseases probably don't actually need to be modelled with Powers.

[Lucius]

Re: 6E: Contagious Disease?

 

If you were to model the effect of a contagious disease using 6E' date=' how would you do it?[/quote']

 

Possibly as a Usable As Attack power with the "granted" power itself including the "Usable As Attack" Advantage, and with No Conscious Control.

 

Or by ignoring the restriction on Sticky, or by putting another Advantage on top that removes the restriction.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary scrambles for points to pay for some Life Support

[jye42]

Re: 6E: Contagious Disease?

 

if i was gming and somone whanted to sticky more than once id say you can for x2 the number of people can be stickyed by another for +1/4.

 

so +0 1 extra person

+1/4 2 extra

+1/2 4 extra

+3/4 8 extra

.etc i see that this is a resonable ruling because its in the spirit of similar advantages

[Lucius]

Re: 6E: Contagious Disease?

 

if i was gming and somone whanted to sticky more than once id say you can for x2 the number of people can be stickyed by another for +1/4.

 

so +0 1 extra person

+1/4 2 extra

+1/2 4 extra

+3/4 8 extra

.etc i see that this is a resonable ruling because its in the spirit of similar advantages

 

Interesting idea.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Sticky palindromedary

[Nevenall]

Re: 6E: Contagious Disease?

 

Here is how I would make an attack who's effects are similar to a contagious disease.

 

Technically you can't buy a real contagious effect. The closest you can get is Sticky +1/2, but Sticky only transmits if someone touches the character who was originally hit with the power.

 

The Wailing Death: Drain BODY & END 2d6

Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2)

Expanded Effect (x2 Chars) (+1/2)

Sticky (+1/2)

Does Body (+1)

Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Week; +2 1/2)

Damage Over Time, Target's defenses only apply once, Lock out (cannot be applied multiple times) (7 damage increments, damage occurs every 1 Day, can be negated by Disease Curing; -2 1/2)

Attack Versus Alternate Defense (CON acts like Power Defense; -1)

120 Active Points, 27 Real Points

 

It should be noted this is thick with warning and stop signs.

 

One not by the book feature is the AVAD. The target uses his CON as if it were Power Defense against the effect of this power and I've assigned CON to the Very Common defenses category.

 

Assuming I haven't made any mistakes, here is how it works.

When you hit someone with the Wailing Death they will be infected for 1 week. Anyone who touches them will also get infected for 1 week but only the original target is contagious.

Every day for 7 days an infected target is hit with a 2d6 Drain that is reduced as if their CON was Power Defense. That is, until the cumulative effect exceeds the target's CON, and then it provides no further defense.

The Drain will reduce the target's BODY and END and these points won't recover until the power has run its course or the character is cured with some kind of disease curing...thing.

 

So, assuming a target with a CON of 8 and BODY of 8 and END of 16, and statistically average rolls of 7 per day the progression of the disease goes like this...

Day 1: 7 points reduced to 0 by CON of 8. No effect.

Day 2: 7 points reduced to 6 by remaining effective CON of 1. Target loses 3 Body and 15 END. (1/2 effect vs. Defensive things)

Day 3: 7 points. Target loses 3 BODY and 15 END. He's at 0 END so he'll take STUN damage whenever he exerts himself enough to require spending END. Which probably

Day 4: 7 points. Target loses 3 BODY and 15 END. He's at -1 BODY.

Day 5: 7 points. Target is at -4 Body.

Day 6: 7 points. Target is at -7 BODY and will die at -8. Probably sometime in the early morning of Day 7. The target is dead! Long live the target!

Day 7: 7 points. Target would have been at -10 BODY.

 

So, untreated the Wailing Death stands a chance of killing an average person and an even better chance of killing someone weaker than that. Someone with a CON of, say, 20 won't statistically feel anything until Day 4 and unless they were suffering from severe Body lose before they got hit they will only lose 12 Body in the end.

Though if someone did survive it would take them 10 - CON/5 weeks to recover.

 

All that said, this is just an attack a character might buy. It's not meant to represent a real contagious disease. That sort of thing the GM should probably deal with in whatever way they see fit.

 

This is probably my longest post ever.

[Utech]

Re: 6E: Contagious Disease?

 

All depends on the contagious disease, yes? They all have very different effects. Questions to ask:

• What sort of thing does the disease cause trouble for? (Humans, birds, elm trees, etc.)
  
• How does the disease spread? (air, water, touch, any bodily fluid, sex, etc.)
  
• How can the disease be carried? (survives on surfaces, on rats, on/in insects, etc.)
  
• How infectious is the disease? (anyone who comes in contact, 0.02% of same, etc.)
  
• How quickly are symptoms apparent? (immediately, days later, months later, years later, etc.)
  
• How frightening are the symptoms? (cough, sneeze, blood from eyes, etc.)
  
• How debilitating are the symptoms? (exhaustion, cramping, fever, dizziness, etc.)
  
• How treatable are the symptoms? (easily, with difficulty, impossible, etc.)
  
• How curable is the disease? (pink eye, typical flu, AIDS, etc.)
  

 

I don't think a simple Advantage (such as Sticky) covers this very well for real world diseases. It might work fine to model a superpower or magic spell, though.

 

I think you'd do better modeling contagious diseases by building them as animals and allowing them to reproduce, travel, and be killed. Alternatively, model them the way things like fire and electricity are modeled when they are part of the environment. Give anyone (susceptible to the disease) in the area a CON Roll or some such to see if they catch the disease and apply damage, Characteristic Drains, etc. as appropriate.

[Greywind]

Re: 6E: Contagious Disease?

 

...plot device...

[bigbywolfe]

Re: 6E: Contagious Disease?

 

Well, diseases and such have been discussed many times in the past. Perhaps a look at what has already been suggested may prevent or reduce the need to “reinvent the wheel”. Maybe someone with better search-fu can find more, but here’s a decent start:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68518&highlight=disease

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51382&highlight=disease

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36400&highlight=disease

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27341&highlight=disease

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19574&highlight=disease

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14941&highlight=disease

[Doc Democracy]

Re: 6E: Contagious Disease?

 

I have just bought 6h edition and so may be slightly out of date. Personally I think that I might venture into the transform aspect of the powers.

 

Essentially you are transforming a healthy individual into someone who is sick and has the ability to infect others.

 

So. I think that I would decide what the effects of the disease would be and make them into a physical limitation rather than messing about with drains etc. I might (depending on the severity of the disease) apply a dependence on the sick person (without CON or BODY rolls the severe effects would take place - possibly losing BODY, possibly losing long term END or other stats) The dependence would be limited such that medicine might mitigate the effects or severity of the dependence.

 

As for the infectivity - I would have an always on, gradual and invisible effects transform (mitigated by measures taken to contain disease) for a fixed time period.

 

This would allow for individual tracking of a disease within a limited group - for wider effects I would use GM discretion.

 

 

Doc

[Hyper-Man]

Re: 6E: Contagious Disease?

 

Does 6e have an equivalent example to this one?

 

Here's a HDv3 build of the example from 5er* pages 276-277:

 

Gift of Flight Spell (by Arkelos)

[Notes: Total Cost = 5 points. END cost for Caster = 2*. END cost for recipient of spell = 5. HD figures the END cost from Active cost for parts 2 & 3 seperately but they should be counted together (3 + 16 = 19, 19/10 = 2 END). edit: Now I confused myself again. More later.]

13 1) GIFT OF FLIGHT, Part 1(Primary Effect): Flight 10" (20 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2) - END=4

3 2) Casting GIFT OF FLIGHT, Part 2 (Casting via Naked Modifier): Usable By Other (+1/4) for up to 13 Active Points of Part 1 (3 Active Points) - END=1

-11 3) Casting GIFT OF FLIGHT, Part 3 (Limitations on Primary Effect & Castiing via Differing Modifier): (16 Active Points); OAF (Magic Wand; -1), Requires A Magic Skill Roll (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) for up to 16 Points of Parts 1 & 2 - END=2

 

This basic 3 part structure might possibly be modified to model the spreading of a disease built as a power.

 

The following was done with HDv3 only.

(I don't have 6e yet)

 

He's Contagious! [Notes: Total Cost = 26 Real Points]

60 1) HE'S CONTAGIOUS!, Part 1 (Primary Effect): Custom Power, Area Of Effect (4m Radius; +1/4), Persistent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Constant (+1/2), Sticky (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +1), Damage Over Time (17-32 damage increments, damage occurs every 1 Hour, +1), Usable As Attack (+1 1/4) (135 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Always On (-1/2), Restrainable (Only by means other than Grabs and Entangles; by a HAZMAT suit for example; -1/4) [Notes: Base ability is 20 active points. Replace with whatever attack power seems appropriate (RKA, Drain, etc..).] - END=0

30 2) Initially Releasing HE'S CONTAGIOUS!, Part 2 (done with Naked Advantage): Ranged (+1/2) for up to 60 Active Points of Part 1 (30 Active Points) - END=3

-64 3) Initially inflicting HE"S CONTAGIOUS!, Part 3 (Limitations on Primary Effect & Initially Releasing via Differing Modifier): (90 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Minute, -1 1/2), OAF (-1) for up to 90 Points of Parts 1 & 2 - END=9

 

I offer this as an alternative to the obvious Transform route.

Transform is far simpler to build but seems to have one glaring drawback.

It essentially uses BODY as a defense. The higher the BODY of any victim, the more likely that they will not actually spread the disease.

This might be a desirable result for some but some diseases won't care if the victim is a NFL linebacker.

I think the 3 part option above allows for more fine tuning of this sort.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 6E: Contagious Disease?

 

I'd go with the Doc plan: transform is perfect for diseases. It is a continuous uncontrolled transform PLUS (if it is fatal) a continuous NND killing attack.

 

The transform looks like this (remember 'Transform' can be used to add powers to targets):

 

Spreading the disease: Severe Transform 1 point, Constant (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Partial Transform (+1/2), Area Of Effect (32m Radius; +1), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Life Support (Disease Immunity); All Or Nothing; +1), Invisible Power Effects (Invisible to [two Sense Groups], effects of Power are Inobvious to target and Invisible to other characters; +1 3/4) (34 Active Points); No Conscious Control (-2)

 

It transforms the target to a diseased version of themselves WITH this power (which is NCC; they can not help who they infect). The Killing Attack (if there is one) would be built much the same but with a delayed onset.

[prestidigitator]

Re: 6E: Contagious Disease?

 

I have just bought 6h edition and so may be slightly out of date. Personally I think that I might venture into the transform aspect of the powers.

 

Essentially you are transforming a healthy individual into someone who is sick and has the ability to infect others.

 

So. I think that I would decide what the effects of the disease would be and make them into a physical limitation rather than messing about with drains etc. I might (depending on the severity of the disease) apply a dependence on the sick person (without CON or BODY rolls the severe effects would take place - possibly losing BODY, possibly losing long term END or other stats) The dependence would be limited such that medicine might mitigate the effects or severity of the dependence.

 

As for the infectivity - I would have an always on, gradual and invisible effects transform (mitigated by measures taken to contain disease) for a fixed time period.

 

This would allow for individual tracking of a disease within a limited group - for wider effects I would use GM discretion.

 

Hmm. And Transform them into a person with the power themselves (along with Complications that keep them from turning it off). Interesting. Heh heh.

[Wolf]

Re: 6E: Contagious Disease?

 

I'd go with the Doc plan: transform is perfect for diseases. It is a continuous uncontrolled transform PLUS (if it is fatal) a continuous NND killing attack.

 

The transform looks like this (remember 'Transform' can be used to add powers to targets):

 

Spreading the disease: Severe Transform 1 point, Constant (+1/2), Uncontrolled (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Partial Transform (+1/2), Area Of Effect (32m Radius; +1), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Life Support (Disease Immunity); All Or Nothing; +1), Invisible Power Effects (Invisible to [two Sense Groups], effects of Power are Inobvious to target and Invisible to other characters; +1 3/4) (34 Active Points); No Conscious Control (-2)

 

It transforms the target to a diseased version of themselves WITH this power (which is NCC; they can not help who they infect). The Killing Attack (if there is one) would be built much the same but with a delayed onset.

 

This is what I was thinking... and probably how I'd do it.

[Lucius]

Re: 6E: Contagious Disease?

 

I'd go with the Doc plan: transform is perfect for diseases.

 

It makes sense that a Doc would have a good plan for dealing with disease.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Doctor of Palindromedariology

[Doc Democracy]

Re: 6E: Contagious Disease?

 

It makes sense that a Doc would have a good plan for dealing with disease.

 

My PhD was indeed in microbiology...those medical quacks know nothing!

[Sean Waters]

Re: 6E: Contagious Disease?

 

I think it might be worth, for the APG, or APG2, looking at an 'infection vector' advantage: AoE doesn't work brilliantly.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: 6E: Contagious Disease?

 

I think it might be worth' date=' for the APG, or APG2, looking at an 'infection vector' advantage: AoE doesn't work brilliantly.[/quote']Or just roll out a new power: Disease/Poison, and have as part of it an advantage "Contagious" with rules specific to it.

 

As it is, none of these proposals work for me.

 

Transform is all too often (and it is in this case) a kludge stopgap for holes in the System.

 

TB

[Hyper-Man]

Re: 6E: Contagious Disease?

 

Building the effect with Usable As Attack, 0 End, Persistent & Always On should help simulate a disease vector quite well. You end up with the ability to give an ability ad infinitum.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 6E: Contagious Disease?

 

.........

 

Transform is all too often (and it is in this case) a kludge stopgap for holes in the System.

 

TB

 

For once I do not agree: I think that, both mechanically and conceptually, transform works very well in this case.

 

It is tweakable: because it is a transform you can define a way to get better (might be 'heal the BODY', might be 'get a shot', might be 'Make a series of CON rolls', or whatever).

 

You can set the incubation time by adding 'Extra Time' to the transform: the version I presented earlier is very basic and would infect almost anyone within minutes, but you could easily change the time to once every day, and have a long incubation period.

 

You can set the contagion period (the transform is Uncontrolled, so that is simply a matter of definition) and you can very closely control the effects with the transform itself (to indicate sickness...and because it is a partial transform you can have symptoms appearing at different times) and with ancillary powers, like the suggested 'linked' killing attack, if the disease is eventually fatal.

 

I think that if you had a separate 'Disease/poison' power it would have to be similar in structure and flexibility to transform or a 'personal' version of Change Environment.

 

So, I think that this is one time when Transform seems to work well.

[prestidigitator]

Re: 6E: Contagious Disease?

 

I agree. Transform works very well for this. It probably isn't even a Severe (15pt) Transform. I'd probably put it at the Major (10pt) level. This is not one of those effects where Transform is being used for something completely bogus simply because there's no other Power that fits. In this case it makes perfect sense IMO.

[director13]

Re: 6E: Contagious Disease?

 

I think you'd do better modeling contagious diseases by building them as animals and allowing them to reproduce, travel, and be killed.

 

I like this at the Heroic Level. The base form has Duplication with two alternates, and the optional “the Duplicates can Duplicate” special effect of the Rapid Duplication Advantage. One charge Drain with Delayed Return Rate and Extra Time.

[prestidigitator]

Re: 6E: Contagious Disease?

 

I like this at the Heroic Level. The base form has Duplication with two alternates' date=' and the optional “the Duplicates can Duplicate” special effect of the Rapid Duplication Advantage. One charge Drain with Delayed Return Rate and Extra Time.

 

Hmm. Or Summoned creatures with Summon....

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: 6E: Contagious Disease?

 

For once I do not agree: I think that, both mechanically and conceptually, transform works very well in this case.

 

It is tweakable: because it is a transform you can define a way to get better (might be 'heal the BODY', might be 'get a shot', might be 'Make a series of CON rolls', or whatever).

 

You can set the incubation time by adding 'Extra Time' to the transform: the version I presented earlier is very basic and would infect almost anyone within minutes, but you could easily change the time to once every day, and have a long incubation period.

 

You can set the contagion period (the transform is Uncontrolled, so that is simply a matter of definition) and you can very closely control the effects with the transform itself (to indicate sickness...and because it is a partial transform you can have symptoms appearing at different times) and with ancillary powers, like the suggested 'linked' killing attack, if the disease is eventually fatal.

 

I think that if you had a separate 'Disease/poison' power it would have to be similar in structure and flexibility to transform or a 'personal' version of Change Environment.

 

So, I think that this is one time when Transform seems to work well.

 

As an alternative to the Killing attack, the Transform could add a Disad...*err* Complication Dependence (on proper rest, fluids, care, whatever) to give it the offensive "bite", which is also very tweekable to fine tune your disease.

[Sean Waters]

Re: 6E: Contagious Disease?

 

As an alternative to the Killing attack' date=' the Transform could add a Disad...*err* Complication Dependence (on proper rest, fluids, care, whatever) to give it the offensive "bite", which is also very tweekable to fine tune your disease.[/quote']

 

I like that. I'd not thought of using dis...er...complications in that way.