Elemental Controls

[badger3k]

Originally posted by Gary

Superheroes in comics do this all the time. Batman and Captain America fight dozens of agents or even villains surrounding them routinely, using hearing and battle experience to deal with those at their backs. Daredevil not only has radar, he also has super hearing, smell and touch. Wolverine is able to use targetting smelling as well as sight in combat, together. And at a greater than 10 meter range I might add. It sounds like you would ban lots of comic book characters in your campaign. Obviously, I couldn't process that info, but I also can't do what Batman, Captain America, Daredevil, or Wolverine could do either.

 

I've seen Reed stretch, grab stuff, entangle, and missile deflect bullets at the same time.

 

My response would be that he suffers for it - his body is stretched further and further, making the whole weaker. Batman and Cap fighting multiple villains is completely irrelevant. Defender can fight many people at once. Does he have an EC - the number of characters around you and how many are attacked in one second is not similar to knowing everything in a 10' radius (ex - forgot the range), while blocking missiles, while attacking someone else, while shielding yourself with the force tendrils. {edit for clarity} - sensing someone behind you, relying on reactions and skills built up is a lot different than sending out a multitude of force tendrils that feel the surroundings. Buy radar or sonar if you want it active like that. Batman isn't going to feel up the guy behind him - he might sense somebody, duck, then belt him - he doesn't have to process the man's waist size while he does it. Even radar sense sends out a pulse, then the mind interprets what comes back - its a subconscious power - the tendrils does not sound like that to me.

 

But we have to use game mechanics, because we're playing a game. And people are naturally going to use the method to build characters that give them "bang for the buck". If I was going to build Reed or Medusa, I would most definitely use EC if it were available.

 

It's an interpretation of a non-game situation. There is no basis to say how long or how short a time span is covered in one panel, or even several. You can use anything in a comic book to justify any position you want. It is really completely irrelevant in my mind to any translation into a game. As for getting more bang for the buck, in my campaign I'm the arms dealer and banker - guess its a recession. Getting a bang for the buck is great. How many bangs and bucks is the question. Is reed a 350, 500, 750, 1000, 1500, ad infinitum character? It's whatever you say. You make him with 500 and several ECs. I'll use a multipower, or even no framework, and won't worry about the cost. Why should I?

 

Lariat uses her energy tendrils to shield her body, push against the ground, stretch, and feel around her. How is that any different from Human Torch with his abilities? It's active control of an "element".

 

Mainly because the human torches abilities are a result of one aspect - the flame sheath/body. Lariat's powers are all extensions of her power - which may sound the same, but to me they are miles apart. If her mind created a non-directional force field around her that negated gravity, and provided her with some protection - that I can see. Add in the attention-taking missile deflection, the sensory awareness (I didn't catch if the tendrils that sense the area are physical, as would seem to imply since they can block attacks and missiles at the same time). Again - it looks like the player is trying to have his cake and eat it too. I can see Lariat having a MP (or not even that) - the MP would reduce the effects of the others while she focuses on one task, while the no-framework writeup would limit her to the same number of actions, but without the power loss.

 

Considering you've had only 1 EC in 20 years, I'm inclined to believe that you would find almost every EC to be unacceptable.

 

Probably - its the all at once nature that really makes it highly selective and restricted. That and, as said before, I never found the cost savings you imply and work so hard to show, make up for the lack of versatility. The few points saved aren't worth it. That and most players did not play characters that used ECs. Most conceptions didn't come close to that, and our group pretty much subscribed to the same theory - MPs were favorite. My current group has me as the expert with the rest pretty new to the system, so they pick up my biases.

 

 

First of all, do you agree with my analysis? That ECM > SPD and SPD = MG and thus ECM > MG? Please answer this, since you've been avoiding this question.

 

Second of all, your costs are wrong. Assuming 40 pt powers, it costs ECM 20 pts vs 4 pts for an ultra slot. Since ECM would only be buying stuff that he wants up at the same time as his other powers, and MG is buying something that he may use only a small fraction of the time, the analysis is:

 

A) 20 pts for power that can be used all the time along without limiting any of the rest of my powers.

 

4 pts for a power that probably will be used less than 20% of the time, and locks out a lot of other powers when MG does get around to using this power.

 

Sounds fair to me.

 

Actually, no I don't agree with your analysis. I thought I had answered that, bt with all the postings I might have missed it. You can show that the EC saves points. So what - that's what it's designed to do. Your math just shows that to me - I look at all the other factors that I've posted and I say that the EC is the one that's hurting. To me they really are a waste or points. The 4 points in that MP can also be the power he uses 90% of the time. As for the point costs, I took those off someone elses post - I have no idea where they were derived from, but I'm sure such a situation can arise, so the numbers are as good as any other.

 

Generally, as well, such "logic" constructs are ill-regarded. Its like the old fish can swim, fish have scales, therefore everything that swims has scales argument (although I like Monty Pythons argument much better - more colorful). Just because ECM>SPD in one instance, doesn't show that ECM>MP, even if you believe that SPD=MP. The trade-offs are entirely subjective, and the one concrete example you can give - the "same power" argument is true only in that context. But that's just my opinion.

 

Hope that answers your questions. Appreciate your response.

[Gary]

Originally posted by badger3k

My response would be that he suffers for it - his body is stretched further and further, making the whole weaker. Batman and Cap fighting multiple villains is completely irrelevant. Defender can fight many people at once. Does he have an EC - the number of characters around you and how many are attacked in one second is not similar to knowing everything in a 10' radius (ex - forgot the range), while blocking missiles, while attacking someone else, while shielding yourself with the force tendrils.

 

I don't see Reed suffering for it. He seems capable of simutaneous actions. And how about Wolverine? 2 targetting senses at the same time, yet he shows no signs of overload of information. His smell works dozens of meters away. Daredevil has numerous hypersenses, processing a staggering amount of information. You can not apply real life standards to comic book characters.

 

If you feel information overload is such a problem, why don't you ban spatial awareness, or any targetting sense for that matter? After all, if targetting at 10 meters is a problem, then someone purchasing other forms of targetting with hundreds of meters range would be even more of a problem.

 

Originally posted by badger3k

Thanks for answering by the way. It's an interpretation of a non-game situation. There is no basis to say how long or how short a time span is covered in one panel, or even several. You can use anything in a comic book to justify any position you want. It is really completely irrelevant in my mind to any translation into a game. As for getting more bang for the buck, in my campaign I'm the arms dealer and banker - guess its a recession. Again - getting a bang for the buck is great. How many bangs and bucks is the question. Is reed a 350, 500, 750, 1000, 1500, ad infinitum character? It's whatever you say. You make him with 500 and several ECs. I'll use a multipower, or even no framework, and won't worry about the cost. Why should I?

 

NPCs don't have to worry about points. PCs do, and thus this entire discussion about game mechanics. If I had to build Reed as a PC, I would use EC because it's efficient.

 

 

Originally posted by badger3k

Mainly because the human torches abilities are a result of one aspect - the flame sheath/body. Lariat's powers are all extensions of her power - which may sound the same, but to me they are miles apart. If her mind created a non-directional force field around her that negated gravity, and provided her with some protection - that I can see. Add in the attention-taking missile deflection, the sensory awareness (I didn't catch if the tendrils that sense the area are physical, as would seem to imply since they can block attacks and missiles at the same time). Again - it looks like the player is trying to have his cake and eat it too. I can see Lariat having a MP (or not even that) - the MP would reduce the effects of the others while she focuses on one task, while the no-framework writeup would limit her to the same number of actions, but without the power loss.

 

If attention gathering is such a problem, then many comic book characters would be banned from your game. It seems the fact that Medusa can control hundreds of thousands of strands of hair at once doesn't bother you, while Lariat controlling dozens of energy tendrils does.

 

 

Originally posted by badger3k

Pretty much - its the all at once nature that really makes it highly selective and restricted. That and, as said before, I never found the cost savings you imply and work so hard to show, make up for the lack of versatility. The few points saved aren't worth it.

 

Since you've only had 1 EC in 20 years, I don't think you had a heck of a lot of experience with them to make comparisons.

 

 

 

Originally posted by badger3k

Actually, no I don't agree with your analysis. You can show that the EC saves points. So what - that's whats it's designed to do. Your math just shows that to me - I look at all the other factors that I've posted and I say that the EC is the one that's hurting. To me they really are a waste or points. The 4 points in that MP can also be the power he uses 90% of the time. As for the point costs, I took those off someone elses post - I have no idea where they were derived from, but I'm sure such a situation can arise, so the numbers are as good as any other.

 

That's silly. If the 4 pt MP slot is used 90% of the time, it's decreasing the value of every other slot in the multi, since they collectively would be used only 10% of the time. It still balances out.

 

You really think that the ability to fly and protect yourself at the same time is a "waste of points"?

 

Originally posted by badger3k

Generally, as well, such "logic" constructs are ill-regarded. Its like the old fish can swim, fish have scales, therefore everything that swims has scales argument (although I like Monty Pythons argument much better - more colorful). Just because ECM>SPD in one instance, doesn't show that ECM>MP, even if you believe that SPD=MP. The trade-offs are entirely subjective, and the one concrete example you can give - the "same power" argument is true only in that context. But that's just my opinion.

 

Hope that answers your questions. Appreciate your response.

 

What's so hard to understand? Please give me something specific to work with, such as an example. It's hard to deal with all these vague generalities.

 

I guess in your universe where a superhero would have a hard time walking and chewing gum at the same time, ECs might not be a good idea.

 

(I couldn't resist that last taunt. Please forgive me. )

[Farkling]

"We've fought that one before if I recall correctly. I'll just note that Armor costing END and a force field costing no END both have the same cost in your EC's and leave it at that."

 

Well Hugh, I prefer the spirit of force fields in my EC's...I haven't prohibited anyone...just discouraged it. The Iceman character may buy armor, he may buy a persistant ablative force field...his decision.

_______________________________________________________

/QUOTE/

"The defensive strike represents the fact that her dozens of tendrils give her an enormous advantage when striking someone. Similarly, an opponent has a hard time plowing through waves of tendrils to strike at her. Similarly, range attacks need to have a direct hit on her or her tendrils to damage her. Glancing hits will be deflected by the tendrils. Thus the DCV bonus.

 

The martial grab is easy. Someone with dozens of limbs has a huge advantage over someone with only 2 limbs in a grapple.

 

The martial throw is also easy. It's trivial to trip someone with all those limbs, and it's easy to gain leverage over others when your dozens of limbs could stretch 10 meters. (Now that I think about it, I could save 2 pts under 5th edition rules since the stretching is "limited body parts" for a -1/4)"

/ENDQUOTE/

An acceptable explanation...you can keep the Martial Arts.

 

Is there any reason you didn't make your force tendrils invisible? She has this "energy corona" around her at all times?

__________________________________________________________

/QUOTE/

"I've seen Reed stretch, grab stuff, entangle, and missile deflect bullets at the same time."

 

I would argue his resistant physical PD special effect is "deflection" of the offending attack.

 

Grab Stuff is STR

Entangle is a the Entangle with the "stretches all over target" special effect.

Missile Deflect bullets would be his PD...as said above.

 

OR a construct of this nature...

 

60 Multipower (60)

6 m (60) Entangle (with feedback)

8 m (40) Missile Deflection

6 m (60) +40 STR, 0 END (no figured, cannot lift/crush)

6 m (30) Stretching

2 u (20) Megascale Stretching

2 u (30) NND EB, no range (suffocation)

6 m (30) Force Field (+20/+0), 0 END

 

Total Cost:: 96

 

Don't nitpick my limitation bonuses...I didn't think them through for all games. That last slot could be +20 Resistant PD for the same price...thus the 0 END argument invalidated as Hugh has stated repeatedly. Does it hold true beyond defense constructs Hugh?

 

(20) EC :: Stretchy Powers (20)

(15) 60 Entangle (with feedback)

(20) 40 Missile Deflection

(20) 60 +40 STR, 0 END (cannot lift or crush)

(20) 40 Stretching

(20) 40 MegaStretching

(13) 40 NND EB, no range, (suffocation)

(20) 40 Force Field (+27/+0), 0 END

 

Total Cost:: 148

 

Note that BY THE BOOK, neither of these is allowed to have missile deflection...it doesn't cost END.

 

Which is more effiecient?? Of course, at the 60 AP level...

 

(30) EC :: Stretchy Powers (30)

(15) 60 Entangle (with feedback)

(30) 60 Missile Deflection

(15) 60 +40 STR, 0 END (cannot lift or crush)

(20) 60 Stretching (combat only)

(30) 60 MegaStretching

(20) 60 NND EB, no range, (suffocation)

(30) 60 Force Field (+40/+0), 0 END

 

Total Cost :: 190

 

Much more power...much more cost. The force field violates my damage caps...

Definitely more bang...but is it more bang for the buck? The first writeup has much the same versatility, with 100 points to spend on brains, stats, a small gadget pool... heck...I might even let the character put gadgets in the multipower as is, if they required his stretchy nature to use...

I'd even let him have gadget VPP with some hefty restrictions, after all...it's a deiiferent special effect unrelated to his EC. That's my feel for it. The "extra" framework requires radically different special effects OR it requires an automatic (-0) "drained as EC"

[badger3k]

Originally posted by Gary

I don't see Reed suffering for it. He seems capable of simutaneous actions. And how about Wolverine? 2 targetting senses at the same time, yet he shows no signs of overload of information. His smell works dozens of meters away. Daredevil has numerous hypersenses, processing a staggering amount of information. You can not apply real life standards to comic book characters.

 

Again, you seem to miss my point. Senses that are subconscious are a different matter than consciously sending something out. There are other problems I have with lariats power concept, though, as I thought I explained.

 

If you feel information overload is such a problem, why don't you ban spatial awareness, or any targetting sense for that matter? After all, if targetting at 10 meters is a problem, then someone purchasing other forms of targetting with hundreds of meters range would be even more of a problem.

 

Its not a matter of information overload. In my campaign people have great powers but are still human. They cannot do two things that require a lot of attention at once. Subconscious actions are another issue. Try to type your reply while you are playing a video game (use one hand for each). If you can do that, then we'll see about the rest. Catching a baseball without looking, just reaching up, from a seated position, is made of millions of bits of info. But I've done it. Does that mean that I can write a book while doing it? Or sing a song while thinking the lyrics of another - at the same time. I don't mean sing then think, or sing while you "play" lyrics in your head - concentrate on the words of the one in your head, while singing - try to do both without shifting your focus back and forth. Of course, since I can't show what I mean, that may be a hideous example.

 

I believe in superhumans who are still human. No cosmic-powered omniprescience power in my game.

 

NPCs don't have to worry about points. PCs do, and thus this entire discussion about game mechanics. If I had to build Reed as a PC, I would use EC because it's efficient.

 

I would not allow it, efficient or not, because it violates the spirit of the EC, as well as is looking for too much at once. Your whole rationale is a completely subjective interpretation of a piece of fiction. My rational is the same. So who's right? Again - using a completely subjective argument is like using none. How many phases is a panel? It's all subjective (to repeat myself ad nauseum).

 

If attention gathering is such a problem, then many comic book characters would be banned from your game. It seems the fact that Medusa can control hundreds of thousands of strands of hair at once doesn't bother you, while Lariat controlling dozens of energy tendrils does.{/QUOTE]

 

It's all relative - I say medusa doesn't have an EC. So why should I figure that Lariat needs one? Medusa can control all - so can Lariat, both charadcters just not do everything at once. It's a matter of degree. I can build all the characters I want as I want, and still fit my view of the comic. Can they be player characters? No - most are too powerful to start out (I run standard at the beginning, not high-powered - reworking my campaign with new characters since 5ed added 100 points to the base. My last ones ran with 250 to 275 to start).

 

Since you've only had 1 EC in 20 years, I don't think you had a heck of a lot of experience with them to make comparisons.

 

Damn - that stung. I'm so hurt I'm gonna cry. I thought I made it clear that I've never seen any sense or purpose to use them. I've found a MP does the overall job much better. I guess you're right though - I have no experience so I have no idea what I'm talking about . I've given two completely separate reasons why I do not use them. You have no problems trying to have a character do muliple things in a second. Do you allow a character who can pick a lock, read a book, blast somebody behind him with a blast pistol, and shave his beard. All at once. I prefer to go to a little less make-believe. Even Grond can only make one attack at a time (never mind the multi-power attack fiasco). And before anyone asks - I do think the one-second phase is silly, but it's a lesser annoyance that can be ignored most of the time).

 

That's silly. If the 4 pt MP slot is used 90% of the time, it's decreasing the value of every other slot in the multi, since they collectively would be used only 10% of the time. It still balances out.

 

On what do you base that? I'd rather not get bogged down in point-think when playing the game. A powers value comes from more than just the points in it - it's how often its used, how useful it is when it's used, how the GM and player make use of situations where it is or isn't useful, heck - I'm probably missing more than I can remember. Trying to reduce it to number is irrational - is a 10d6 EB worth more than a 5d6 Entangle? Accorcing to math they're equal. But player A uses his EB 100% of the time - so it is really valued more - but player B uses the opposite - so the EB is worthless to him. But that can't be right - they are worth the same number of points!

 

It's like statistics - worthless, except when you want to 'prove' something. Game balance comes from more than numbers. If you feel differently after playing so long, then we'll never see eye to eye on that.

 

Here's another example. One guy uses one slot 90% of the time. He loves it. So the rest are devalued in your opinion. Then he uses one of those 10% slots, poor little useless point drain, to stop the world-destroying machine. He saved the world. Is that power only good for 10% then? How about if he uses another slot to save someones life, which in the end nets him a free contact for life - (no points spent, so none to add up for a value - its all GM fiat). How much is that worth? How about another slot that is only used once in 10 adventures, then results in the downfall of Dr Destroyer. Only worth 10%?

 

 

You really think that the ability to fly and protect yourself at the same time is a "waste of points"?

 

If that ends up all I can do after 6 adventures, while my buddy with the multipower can now do 5 more things with his power, then yeah - the tradeoff of one aspect (combat superiority with equal powers) over usefulness in an adventure is not worth it. I can fly and fire a full strength EB at my opponent, while my buddy can't do that, the entangle he has sure came in handy when my EB didn't have any effect. His force wall saved the innocent bystanders. I could only stand and watch. Yep - being able to fly and fire sure is important and worth more.

 

Its all in how its used. If your game is strictly combat, then that's fine for you. Combat isn't the only thing in mine, though. If ECs were so useful for everything, then why doesn't everybody have one? Mechanon doesn't have one - neither does Dr Destroyer. If Ultron and Dr Doom aren't effective characters (since an EC would be much more effective), then who is?

 

What's so hard to understand? Please give me something specific to work with, such as an example. It's hard to deal with all these vague generalities.

 

I guess in your universe where a superhero would have a hard time walking and chewing gum at the same time, ECs might not be a good idea.

 

(I couldn't resist that last taunt. Please forgive me. )

 

Pardon me for not laughing. Don't teach your grandpa how to suck eggs, son . I never said I didn't understand - I just have different values. You equate points saved on combat utility over all the other factors (it seems to me that all your arguments are based on MP vs EC in straight out fight). I think that one aspect is overshadowed by the others. Points are useful,but in no case reflect "balance" or anything related to it.

 

But like I said, that's my opinion. You have yours. We'll "ne'er the twain shall meet" as they say (although who 'they' are is open to debate and cause for concern in the halls of power).

 

Sorry to anybody who is tired of this issue - may or may not post its like again unless its something new.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Gary

Armor costs end isn't quite the same as FF. First of all, you only get 10/10 armor in the EC. Second of all, you're paying 3 end per phase rather than 1, and you're not allowed to put reduced end on it. No thanks. Third of all, the cost changes to 10 rather than 15. 2 different animals in the context of a EC.

 

As with any character concept, it would be your choice whether to change it and my choice whether to allow it without changes. As I said, while I see some signs of "every defense" syndrome, I also don't see any exotic defenses which mitigates the concern somewhat. I could just as easily consider allowing the structure on the basis that "NND vs Force Field" will affect her because her so-called force field doesn't shelter every square inch of her skin.

 

Of course, what may help more in this case is the fact I don't generally ban 0 END powers from EC's, so I'd allow the force field to be converted to armor without taking "costs END". It's the same DEF as a 0 END force field anyway, and that's legal. [Farkling won't, but he hasn't complained about having both defenses anyway]

 

Maybe I'm just feeling generous since Steve made the 19d6 piledriver go away (twice! ).

 

Originally posted by Gary

Not really. Unlike PC's who are allowed to buy no activation armor even wearing only a facemask, a NPC would still be vulnerable at the head and neck. The clothing will protect body shots, but most presidents don't wear head gear and the SS still has to worry about the dreaded head shot.

 

So you can't build a turtleneck and a ski mask to be worn in emergencies?

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Farkling

__________________________________________________________

/QUOTE/

"I've seen Reed stretch, grab stuff, entangle, and missile deflect bullets at the same time."

 

I would argue his resistant physical PD special effect is "deflection" of the offending attack.

 

Grab Stuff is STR

Entangle is a the Entangle with the "stretches all over target" special effect.

Missile Deflect bullets would be his PD...as said above.

 

All of that works. If you can't build it at least two or three ways, it's not really Hero, is it?

 

Originally posted by Farkling

OR a construct of this nature...

 

60 Multipower (60)

6 m (60) Entangle (with feedback)

8 m (40) Missile Deflection

6 m (60) +40 STR, 0 END (no figured, cannot lift/crush)

6 m (30) Stretching

2 u (20) Megascale Stretching

2 u (30) NND EB, no range (suffocation)

6 m (30) Force Field (+20/+0), 0 END

 

Total Cost:: 96

 

Shouldn't the Entangle also be no range? I could argue ranged missile deflect, as he does often stretch in front of someone else and block for them, but that's a good power to buy with xp.

 

Or boost the reserve to expand the number of powers usable at the same time. I'd probably use 20 PD Armor rather than the force field (see below).

 

Originally posted by Farkling

Don't nitpick my limitation bonuses...I didn't think them through for all games. That last slot could be +20 Resistant PD for the same price...thus the 0 END argument invalidated as Hugh has stated repeatedly. Does it hold true beyond defense constructs Hugh?

 

The 0 END argument isn't relevant to a multipower. That restriction only applies to an EC.

 

Does what hold true beyond defense constructs? I'm fairly open to zero END powers in EC's if they fit the EC well. Life support might be appropriate, or Aid, or certain enhanced senses. For example, why not IR Vision in a Temperatues EC (well, besides the fact that it's too cheap to make sense in the EC, I guess), or Absorb (fire only), or damage reduction (fire only) or damage resistance (fire only), or gliding (using air currents from heat) instead of flight, Luck in a Luck EC missile deflect in any number of EC's?

 

I find the "no 0 end powers" rule very arbitrary. If these powers shouldn't qualify for the point break because they are somehow underpriced, then fix the price for everyone.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

(20) EC :: Stretchy Powers (20)

(15) 60 Entangle (with feedback)

(20) 40 Missile Deflection

(20) 60 +40 STR, 0 END (cannot lift or crush)

(20) 40 Stretching

(20) 40 MegaStretching

(13) 40 NND EB, no range, (suffocation)

(20) 40 Force Field (+27/+0), 0 END

 

Total Cost:: 148

 

Note that BY THE BOOK, neither of these is allowed to have missile deflection...it doesn't cost END.

 

Well, the multipower can, as discussed above.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

Which is more effiecient?? Of course, at the 60 AP level...

 

(30) EC :: Stretchy Powers (30)

(15) 60 Entangle (with feedback)

(30) 60 Missile Deflection

(15) 60 +40 STR, 0 END (cannot lift or crush)

(20) 60 Stretching (combat only)

(30) 60 MegaStretching

(20) 60 NND EB, no range, (suffocation)

(30) 60 Force Field (+40/+0), 0 END

 

Total Cost :: 190

 

Much more power...much more cost.

 

Originally posted by Farkling

The force field violates my damage caps...

 

I might allow it. Reed probably has very little base PD, so he's not all that high - 45 beats my usual guideline for max by about 10, but if he has a low ED, and not a lot of exotic defenses, I'd consider it. I might also be tempted to allow damage reduction instead. It's a special power, but one very justifed by the special effects. But then, I'm not a bvig fan of blanket restrictions, so I treat most "GM permission" or "generally should not..." abilities as caution/stop signs, not as "verbotten".

 

Originally posted by Farkling

Definitely more bang...but is it more bang for the buck? The first writeup has much the same versatility, with 100 points to spend on brains, stats, a small gadget pool... heck...I might even let the character put gadgets in the multipower as is, if they required his stretchy nature to use...

I'd even let him have gadget VPP with some hefty restrictions, after all...it's a deiiferent special effect unrelated to his EC. That's my feel for it. The "extra" framework requires radically different special effects OR it requires an automatic (-0) "drained as EC"

 

Well, you know Gary will tell us its far more powerful than putting all those powers in a multipower with a big pool, since he can then use them all at once and run out of END quicker.

 

I think a big pool, with a lot of small powers and Stretching as the only one going up to the pool max, would be about right. The more of his body he uses to wrap around people, catch bullets , etc. the less distance he gets with the unused body parts.

[Farkling]

With range on the Entangle he can put some loops around someone and keep on Stretching...

 

Actually...if you think about it...Reed should skip the Entangle and go with his STR...he can buy "extra limbs" to simluate the multiple siezing of opponents...then you don't have to cram the Entangle effects into hand to hand combat limitations.

 

One of the primary things about Entangles is the "fire-and-forget" barrier construct...

 

On the other hand....the entangle could be what he's using to deflect missiles...he throws a barrier entangle (with feedback) in front of the intended target (stretching part of his body over there...)

 

Why put range on the missile deflection? So you can add "range based on STR as a limit?" Just buy straight missile deflect, and if he needs to deflect at range... STREEEEETCH.

 

 

Bah. Who knows?

 

Let us look at Gary's equation utilizing some logical-analytical tools::

Consider these statements

 

(MP > SPD, Base Powers/Point} AND {EC > SP, Base Powers/Point} => (MP AND EC > SP, Power/Point Ratio}

 

{MP > EC, Flexibility/Point} AND {EC >= SP, Flexibility/Point} => {MP > EC >= SP, Flexibility/Point}

 

{EC > MP, Active Powers/Point} AND {MP >= SP, Active Powers/Point) => {EC > MP >= SP, Active Powers/Point}

 

{MP >= SP, Growth/Point} AND {SP >= EC, Growth/Point}

Position:: If MP = SP = EC in growth, we are not allowing for special effects restrictions, and as a matter of fact, MP is nearly always superior to SP in quickly purchasing powers...therefore:: => {MP > SP > EC, Growth/Point}

HOWEVER... EC > SP in pure EXPENDITURE provided it fits in the EC, so we must restrict this:: {MP > SP > EC, Growth/Point} OR {MP > EC, Growth/Point} AND {EC > SP, Growth/Point, IF AND ONLY IF NEW Power fits EC Special Effects and Reserve}

Extension:: {SP >= MP, Growth Options} AND {SP > EC, Growth Options} => {SP >= MP > EC, Growth Options}

 

{SP > EC, Ease of Use} AND {SP > MP, Ease of Use} AND {EC >= MP, Ease of Use) => {SP > EC >= MP, Ease of Use}

 

{SP > MP, Suppression of Powers} AND {MP > EC, Suppression of Powers} => (SP > MP > EC, Suppression of Powers}

 

 

So ... there are drawbacks to each one...in conclusion, I cannot define any as better than the other...

 

Incidentally, has any of the Multipower arguers NOTICED that it says on pg 75 after the first example that you can't drain the MPower reserve? You have to drain the SLOTS.

That would be another point for MP guy...He can switch to another power and have null effect from the drain/suppression he was hit with... food for thought. Definitely leaves me AGAINST Mulitpower Attack with EC: Movement/Defense constructs...I will continue to keep my -0 limit in reserve.

[Farkling]

Truthfully, if you consider all of this from an outside viewpoint::

 

EC's are too cheap and efficient.

 

Ultra Slot Attack Multipowers are the cheesiest way to quickly grow and get all the useful attack powers.

 

VPP's are a cheat, since you can literally use any power in the book if you are out of combat.

 

Skills are underpriced, since for a measly 250 points I can be an expert with every skill in the book (14-) AND I can buy at least 25 seperate knowledge/science/cultural skills.

 

And if I build a characteristics based superhero, (maybe popping a few points for Damage Resistance), he will easily reach the caps in the game, and be an overly efficient combat machine.

 

So, since every major schtick is a cheat and broken...perhaps HERO needs to go back to the drawing boards?

 

 

Have a nice day. This was your Friday Philosophy outburst.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Farkling

Truthfully, if you consider all of this from an outside viewpoint::

 

EC's are too cheap and efficient.

 

Ultra Slot Attack Multipowers are the cheesiest way to quickly grow and get all the useful attack powers.

 

VPP's are a cheat, since you can literally use any power in the book if you are out of combat.

 

Skills are underpriced, since for a measly 250 points I can be an expert with every skill in the book (14-) AND I can buy at least 25 seperate knowledge/science/cultural skills.

 

And if I build a characteristics based superhero, (maybe popping a few points for Damage Resistance), he will easily reach the caps in the game, and be an overly efficient combat machine.

 

So, since every major schtick is a cheat and broken...perhaps HERO needs to go back to the drawing boards?

 

 

Have a nice day. This was your Friday Philosophy outburst.

 

Hehe, and given all this, HERO fans must be a dull-witted lot for not fixing it long ago.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Farkling

Truthfully, if you consider all of this from an outside viewpoint::

 

EC's are too cheap and efficient.

 

Ultra Slot Attack Multipowers are the cheesiest way to quickly grow and get all the useful attack powers.

 

VPP's are a cheat, since you can literally use any power in the book if you are out of combat.

 

Skills are underpriced, since for a measly 250 points I can be an expert with every skill in the book (14-) AND I can buy at least 25 seperate knowledge/science/cultural skills.

 

And if I build a characteristics based superhero, (maybe popping a few points for Damage Resistance), he will easily reach the caps in the game, and be an overly efficient combat machine.

 

So, since every major schtick is a cheat and broken...perhaps HERO needs to go back to the drawing boards?

 

 

Have a nice day. This was your Friday Philosophy outburst.

 

As long as everyone is equally unhappy, it must be fair.

[badger3k]

Eek - everybody run - I'm posting again!!!

 

Here's some things i came up with while at work - How does everybody apply the action system?

 

What I mean is that any action that requires an Attack roll is a 1/2 phase action (p 237). Make a skill roll is variable, but I've always played that if the power required a roll, than it took a half-phase as well. Thus a character could move than attack (move half is half-phase - same page), move full (ditto) or attack (p 237 says you can't do another action after an attack action). For someone to fly, use an attack, and do something like missile deflection (requires a roll), than that took 1.5 actions. Can't do it.

 

EC says you can use your powers at once - but to me that took secondary effect to the action system. You were still limited in your choices of what you can do. To keep a force field up is 0 phase, so a typical EC with EB, FF, and Flight is possible. A similar construct is OK. Putting multiple attacks makes no sense, since you can only do one at a time. Why not make a MP for the flexibility (etc) - that's a reason that I haven't really explained (I tried in non-game terms, but didn't think up the proper terms until this morning). That would have been much neater and required less analysis.

 

So, what do others do? Do you allow something like (irk - don't hurl -) Kinetik from Champions Universe? I know he's a speedster, but to be able to change an 8" radius area (clean up or whatever), while keeping your body moving to (ok - the force field makes sense), while using the vibro-grip, supersonic finger-snap, and dizzying spin all at once? How is that possible. Even in game terms? You can't do multiple power attacks within frameworks (p 204) without GMs permission, of course. So how can you justify having them in the framework? Just because they can be drained? Something like that is a good argument for Gary's "drain together" limitation (although I think 'linked' works as well, but that's just my interpretation). I would have put the FF separate, with the other powers in a MP. Heck, give him an area of effect attack, selective, any area, linked to running (or only to inches run would be more proper, I believe).

 

To go back to the drain rule - I think it's pretty clear (highly subjective, of course, since if it was clear these threads wouldn't take place) that they mean all powers should be based on SFX that can be drained all at once (the fire extinguisher or lack of oxygen given in the example on p 204). To me that overrules the 2nd paragraph in that section (Acceptable Elemental Controls) - the one where they have EC: werewolf powers. Can anyone define a drain werewolf power? Wolfsbane powder in the air?

 

Finally, so I don't seem like an ogre - I could actually play with a similar character as lariat - I'd even use the EC, if the drain part can be rationalized to my satisfaction. Without point costs, since I'm only worried about the construction, I'd have Stretching, Str linked (or vice versa), FF, Missile deflection linked to FF with uncontrolled or continuous (prob uncontrolled, since it would be a set up and forget power, which would go down when the FF was dropped). Spatial awareness- that power I'd either do as a touch sense only linked to the stretching (the tendrils can sense what they touch and transmit it back to Lariat, requiring active guidance (or half-phase action)), or else drop it out of the EC and give it to the mental sense group (possibly radar or sonar instead, but as a separate non-touch, the spatial awareness power is ok) - the last version would reflect her mental "detection field" she uses to control the tendrils - it is passive, so requires no roll normally, and requires no force going out and actually touching things.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Farkling

Truthfully, if you consider all of this from an outside viewpoint::

 

EC's are too cheap and efficient.

 

Ultra Slot Attack Multipowers are the cheesiest way to quickly grow and get all the useful attack powers.

 

VPP's are a cheat, since you can literally use any power in the book if you are out of combat.

 

Skills are underpriced, since for a measly 250 points I can be an expert with every skill in the book (14-) AND I can buy at least 25 seperate knowledge/science/cultural skills.

 

And if I build a characteristics based superhero, (maybe popping a few points for Damage Resistance), he will easily reach the caps in the game, and be an overly efficient combat machine.

 

So, since every major schtick is a cheat and broken...perhaps HERO needs to go back to the drawing boards?

 

 

Have a nice day. This was your Friday Philosophy outburst.

Excellent point.

 

There's another thing in 5th Edition that Multipowers and Elemental Controls lose though... Multiple Power Attacks. To get the cost breaks that Elemental Controls and Multipowers give you, you lose the ability to fire that Flash Attack, Energy Blast, and Ranged Killing Attack at your target, all at once! This is obviously an expensive opiton. Of course, if you get creative with foci and charges limitations you can probably afford this.

 

That tears it, limitations are "overly generous" too. I guess we should just flip a coin to see who wins the fight.

 

Seriously, there are a million and one ways to look at this. The true test is simple, characters in play. Multipower characters with no ECs work. EC characters with no Multipower work. EC/Multipower charactes work. Characters with no framework work. Etc.

 

If you look at the game as a whole and stop taking things out of context you will see that everything has its corresponding advantages and disadvantages... and that a flexible system designed to build any character concept is necessarily going to allow a player to be abusive in many areas without a good GM looking at the entirety of the character construction. Very few things need outright bans. Most things simply need the GM to scrutinize the character construction and give an honest, unprejudiced assessment of what the character can do.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Farkling

Truthfully, if you consider all of this from an outside viewpoint::

 

EC's are too cheap and efficient.

 

Ultra Slot Attack Multipowers are the cheesiest way to quickly grow and get all the useful attack powers.

 

VPP's are a cheat, since you can literally use any power in the book if you are out of combat.

 

Skills are underpriced, since for a measly 250 points I can be an expert with every skill in the book (14-) AND I can buy at least 25 seperate knowledge/science/cultural skills.

 

And if I build a characteristics based superhero, (maybe popping a few points for Damage Resistance), he will easily reach the caps in the game, and be an overly efficient combat machine.

 

So, since every major schtick is a cheat and broken...perhaps HERO needs to go back to the drawing boards?

 

 

Have a nice day. This was your Friday Philosophy outburst.

 

OK we hashed this out at the Friday night game, and there's only one fair way to resolve this - double the point costs of everything so it will be fair.

 

We also agreed that, since this will make some character conceptions unworkable otherwise, we'll also double starting points and the value of disadvantages.

 

That settles that

[CorpCommander]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

OK we hashed this out at the Friday night game, and there's only one fair way to resolve this - double the point costs of everything so it will be fair.

 

Um, why not just, like, build characters with half the points? Instead of making that 300pt character why not make a 150pt character? That way you don't have to change anything and you get the same effect. No?

[CorpCommander]

Originally posted by Farkling

So, since every major schtick is a cheat and broken...perhaps HERO needs to go back to the drawing boards?

 

George Orwell would say that "Since everything is broken, Nothing is broken!"

 

There is no way a point based system can prevent bad character design in much the same way there is no and never will be a computer language that will prevent bad computer programs. The solution to this problem is the same in both cases -- oversight. For a Hero game that comes from you GM. Find a reasonable GM and let their word be law.

 

I've got to go now. I am trying to cheese out my next character with super cheap STR and Skillz. WO0T! I will 0wn ViPeR!!!

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by McCoy

Seems that he gets suprised or ambushed about one time out of three, which I interpet as Danger Sense on a 12 or 13 or less. Spider-man has Danger Sense on at least 22-. Call it hyperdeveloped combat instincts, but that's just SX. Bottom line, Bats is prepared for suprise attacks more often than not.

 

{regarding Batman and Danger Sense}

 

I interpret that as a high PER. There's nothing to indicate that Batman has extrasensory powers.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Kristopher

{regarding Batman and Danger Sense}

 

I interpret that as a high PER. There's nothing to indicate that Batman has extrasensory powers.

Depends on what effect you are trying to simulate. It seems McCoy may be trying to simulate Batman's perception, intelligence, training, and obsessive need to plan ahead.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Agent X

Depends on what effect you are trying to simulate. It seems McCoy may be trying to simulate Batman's perception, intelligence, training, and obsessive need to plan ahead.

 

Personally I would also model Batman with Danger Sense for his extreme ability to determine what's going on around him often against any reasonable odds.

 

Of course it all depends which Batman we're trying to model...

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by Agent X

Depends on what effect you are trying to simulate. It seems McCoy may be trying to simulate Batman's perception, intelligence, training, and obsessive need to plan ahead.

 

IMO, Danger Sense is extrasensory, not a matter of training or planning.

[CorpCommander]

Originally posted by Kristopher

IMO, Danger Sense is extrasensory, not a matter of training or planning.

 

I've seen one form of Danger Sense where the RSR was deduction and represented simply being able to detect a trap - it may have been slightly limited in that all the details of the attack weren't known but just that it was there. I think it was for a Film Noir type character.

[McCoy]

Originally posted by Kristopher

IMO, Danger Sense is extrasensory, not a matter of training or planning.

And FREd contradicts that opinion, p. 64, "(base ability is Detect Danger Detectable By Normal Human Senses In Combat, Including Range To Danger [5 Character Points], Increased Arc Of Perception [360 Degrees; +5 points], plus Targeting; Only If Make Half Roll [-1])"

 

"Detectable By Normal Human Senses"

 

Precognition or paranoia is a matter of Special Effect, not mechanics. Bat's Perception roll should be 13-, are we to assume his attackers NEVER make their stealth roll? That level of luck seems more supernatural that reacting to subliminal danger cues. He is sometimes suprised, not as often as someone with a 20 INT should be.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by McCoy

And FREd contradicts that opinion, p. 64, "(base ability is Detect Danger Detectable By Normal Human Senses In Combat, Including Range To Danger [5 Character Points], Increased Arc Of Perception [360 Degrees; +5 points], plus Targeting; Only If Make Half Roll [-1])"

 

"Detectable By Normal Human Senses"

 

Precognition or paranoia is a matter of Special Effect, not mechanics. Bat's Perception roll should be 13-, are we to assume his attackers NEVER make their stealth roll? That level of luck seems more supernatural that reacting to subliminal danger cues. He is sometimes suprised, not as often as someone with a 20 INT should be.

 

Man, you're on a roll with the research, McCoy.

[Jeff]

Originally posted by McCoy

And FREd contradicts that opinion, p. 64, "(base ability is Detect Danger Detectable By Normal Human Senses In Combat, Including Range To Danger [5 Character Points], Increased Arc Of Perception [360 Degrees; +5 points], plus Targeting; Only If Make Half Roll [-1])"

 

"Detectable By Normal Human Senses"

 

Precognition or paranoia is a matter of Special Effect, not mechanics. Bat's Perception roll should be 13-, are we to assume his attackers NEVER make their stealth roll? That level of luck seems more supernatural that reacting to subliminal danger cues. He is sometimes suprised, not as often as someone with a 20 INT should be.

Should this be a new thread yet?

 

I think you might be underestimating Batman's PER roll there. I figure he's a good candidate for INT 23, paying past NCM or not. But more than that, chuckles has a PER roll that's boosted well above that, maybe from levels, maybe from the enhanced PER roll route, maybe both, and he's likely got a host of skills a GM would allow as complementary to PER rolls under those circumstances. A specific Danger Sense probably isn't necessary for him - the PER rolls are routinely high enough that any natural skill vs. skill contest is a losing proposition for the ambushers.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Jeff

Should this be a new thread yet?

 

I think you might be underestimating Batman's PER roll there. I figure he's a good candidate for INT 23, paying past NCM or not. But more than that, chuckles has a PER roll that's boosted well above that, maybe from levels, maybe from the enhanced PER roll route, maybe both, and he's likely got a host of skills a GM would allow as complementary to PER rolls under those circumstances. A specific Danger Sense probably isn't necessary for him - the PER rolls are routinely high enough that any natural skill vs. skill contest is a losing proposition for the ambushers.

 

New thread!? NEVER! Any decent thread has to be thoroughly hi-jacked as proof of its death!

 

As to your point, mmm, maybe, I'm not so sure; Bats seems capable in many instances of sensing danger where I as a GM wouldn't allow a PER roll. But maybe I'm PER-roll-stingy. However, you have a good point as to other skills which may trigger the same effect; still, I worry that's trumping the actual game effects of Danger Sense with skills just a tad too far. I guess I'd have to see game examples.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by zornwil

New thread!? NEVER! Any decent thread has to be thoroughly hi-jacked as proof of its death!

 

Elemental control

 

Just thought it should appear on the page at least once