Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

[RexMundi]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

Obviously I disagree for the reasons stated above..."sigh". I thin Jhamin has hit the nail on thehead and there really is not an objective "better" here.

 

That's why I brought up the whole Forest and Trees thing. Because there IS an Objective Better.

 

If you aren't Having a problem, and are happy with the feel, then it's not going to seem to be a problem, and the feel isn't going to "feel" wrong. You have that good solid posistion of being in a solid and dedicated group of players. In Short, you're New Zealand. Your own self contained ecosystem of RPGing for the most part. Your're Baseball team hasn't left you to go play football. That's why a lot of us are so jealous, heh. Would be cool to have a solid group like that, or better yet, my old gaming club. Still.

 

It's not like that though for a vast majority of the gaming world. Hasn't been for the better part of a decade, mostly because of the whole Internet and social networking and communications angles, and various other forms of media as well.

 

Unfortunently, it's a big world so to speak, and while you may disagree, there are many many many many folks you are disagreeing with, a lot of whom are new, or returning from other systems, and many of those simply don't understand the viewpoint of those that are sticking to the old stuff, when folks of similar time in grade, are moving on to the new stuff.

 

I'm a similar stick in the mud when it comes to Photography for example. I'll NEVER, switch to digital (Not at least while my store of Black and White Film holds out). I'd sooner claw my own eyes out then abandon Film. So I can understand folks staying with something they like. However, am I going to hold up my good old Nikomat FT and get into a tech arguement based on personal feelings with someone holding up a Nikon D3xs....No way in Hell. Personal feeling has nothing to do with technical/mechanical, and speaking from a technical/mechanical point of view, my camera choice is inferior, even if I don't "feel" that it is. If it wasn't, it would still be the same piece of equipment, sitting up there instead of the new fangled evil technology stuff.

 

Still, Big Ocean. Room for lot's of fish.

 

~Rex

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

Rex, sorry I just don't feel your analogy holds up. this is gaming not electronics or tech. Heck even. even in tech, marketing can trump actual utility. even if the majority prefers something it doesn't make it objectively better ( think say Novels or movies) It just speaks well to a majority of people. Is Transformers better than Moulin Rouge or the Tempest ?

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

Are you saying that people liked the Transformers movies? Aside from Camaro-Bee?

[Burrito Boy]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

Are you saying that people liked the Transformers movies? Aside from Camero-Bee?

 

I liked the first one. But it's okay because I hated the second one.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

Goodman is alive and well

he's just moved into limitations

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

I liked the first one. But it's okay because I hated the second one.

 

I was expecting the Matrix of Leadership to make Camaro-Bee the new Prime, but instead they brought Optimus back yet again. Which wouldn't have been too bad if they hadn't turned him into a spineless bastard who kills Decepticons that try to surrender. Which is made even more infuriatingly disappointing by the fact that they got Peter Cullen to play him.

[Ternaugh]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

It's all about the presentation. The thing is now, the character isn't driven to overload on disads (hunted by Everyone, all the time, etc etc etc), just to feel "competitive" with the rest of the party or the things in the campaign. The Current complication set up, is also far more Comic Book like in feel and flow then the Disads were.....

 

~Rex

 

In my own campaign (FH), I had already moved to a system where starting characters got more "Base points", and could take less Disadvantages. The new Complications system just formalized it for me. Additionally, the Complications system is easier to explain to new players, as they are already familiar with other game systems that give points, and then require Complications (or Hindrances, or whatever the other games call them). And while I might have a player or two who have played Hero with me in the past, I really don't have the luxury of having a gaming group that stays the same over a few years, let alone Steamteck's 20 years with the same group.

 

JoeG

[phookz]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

That's why I brought up the whole Forest and Trees thing. Because there IS an Objective Better.

 

Objective better based on what criteria? How do you even define objective better in this case? There is no objective better here. There are changes to the system; whether or not the changes were necessary is completely subjective. Whether or not the changes were improvements is completely subjective. If they aren't, then the implication to all of those who don't agree is that they are either uninformed or irrational. I find that a bit condescending, and I prefer 6E.

[Greywind]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

Send me a copy and I'll review it.

 

[Opal]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

Objective better based on what criteria?

Yeah. Something can be objectively better along some dimension or based on some quantitative criteria or other. Something as complex and, well, recreational, as an RPG can't really be judged quantitatively as a whole, only in very small snippets.

 

Take 4e D&D: it's classes are much better-balanced with regard to eachother than in prior editions. Doesn't make the whole game better, though. I prefer 4e D&D, though. Guess I like class balance.

 

I really haven't been playing so much Hero over the last 10 years. The group I was with at the time just didn't much care for it: I could get them to play, but they didn't really apreciate the system. I never even really ran 5th - I allowed anything from 5th, but also still used a lot of 4th and a few personal variants. 6th is different enough that I couldn't easily continue that strategy, so I haven't bothered with it yet.

 

 

Now, some rambling about rolling revs in RPGs.

 

First, let me ramble about D&D. I started with AD&D in 1980 and have seen, liked, adopted, and played all the subsequent versions. I notice a definite pattern with D&D. When a new ed comes out, it is hands-down better, to me, than the previous one, every time. It's not because the new core system is better, it's because each new ed sweeps away the tons of crap that have accumulated over the year as first TSR, then WotC, and now Hasbro publish new books every month to keep the property's income stream going. It's a consequence of D&D being a 'list based' system. You add something to D&D - a spell, a weapon, a race, an item, etc - you add to the system itself, you add rules. Each addition can interact with the core system and any previous or later eadditions in a problematic way. Every 5 or 10 years, the system collapses under the wieght of it's suplements. My techie friends tell me there's a similar phenomenon with the Windows 'registry.'

 

Hero is completely different. It's an effects-based system, so if you want to add a new weapon, spell, world, race, or whatever, you can do so within the existing system. There's no need to re-boot it periodically to purge the system of excess rules. The only place where Hero suffers from that phenomenon a bit is skills. I don't see a pattern with Hero. The first three editions were games that were clearly using a lot of the same mechanics, but still different from eachother. The 2nd Ed of Champions didn't incorporate much from other games, the 3rd did. 4th was a revelation, all the games were brought formally under a single universal system. There were minor incremental improvements and degredations going from 1st through 3rd, but 4th was a quantum leap, and 5th & 5th revised were again very much incremental, while 6th makes significant changes, but remains at it's core a point-build, effects-based, universal RPG.

 

When the BBB hit, Hero became the best RPG ever. It still is: whether you're talking BBB, FRED, revised, or 6th. They may be different from eachother, and we may have preferences, but they're all still better than anything else.

[Southern Cross]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

Actually,after reading the description of the Blur! character,I think that the character could be built with an Persistent Change Environment with Personal Immunity that reduces OCV by 4 and is Always On.

[phookz]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

Actually' date='after reading the description of the Blur! character,I think that the character could be built with an Persistent Change Environment with Personal Immunity that reduces OCV by 4 and is Always On.[/quote']

 

That's an interesting take on it, but what about ranged attacks?