Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

...though it would also mean that DEX drains drop your speed and cv' date=' just like they used to in the old edition.[/quote']

 

I'm pretty sure that in the 5th edition on back, a Drain only affected the base characteristic and its peripherial figureds (OCV, DCV, ECV, Skill rolls) but not the secondary figured characteristics like Speed, PD, ED etc. Those required a seperate Drain to affect them.

[JmOz]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

true, but it does make sense that if you are getting a bonus to the cost of some of your characteristics because they are all part of the same ability that they should be drained as such...

 

And NSG is right about the rules in 5th

[Tasha]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

I agree. Which is why I've always supported Combat Skill Levels over extra DEX to represent a highly skilled combatant. However if you take someone who has the potential and you train them just a little bit, they tend to get good very, very quickly. An olympic gymnast with a DEX of 18 who doesn't know how to fight (no WF at all, so is -3 OCV to everything) won't seem very impressive until you teach him how to fight, at which point his potential will kick in and he'll become very proficient, very quickly. Thus his natural CV of 6 will apply to whatever form of combat he is learning...then as time goes on, he'll get scary good.

 

I will use a real life example from my own personal experience. I've always been good at sports...a natural so to speak. I was the fastest kid in my class. One of the best baseball players. One of the best football players. One of the best soccer players. Its obvious that I have a somewhat higher than average DEX. In my youth it would've probably rated a 13 or 14. Did I develop skill levels with sports? No. I hate sports. I rarely played them. It was pure Characteristics performance.

What does this have to do with combat? Years later, when I finally got a chance to learn some Martial Arts, I joined at a local school learning Kung Fu. The sifu was very impressed with my ability to simply pick up forms almost instantly and do them perfectly. After only a few days of training, some of the instructors began pointing me out as the example of proper form, accuracy and power. The instructors were pointing me out to students who had been studying for months. It made me quite uncomfortable to tell the truth and I made no friends at that school. my point being that my natural potential had me performaing as well as students who had been studying for months longer than myself. Thats DEX and CV interaction in a nutshell.

 

I guess the difference between 5e and 6e is that When I am writting up a character with natural ability in 5e I get stuff automatically. When I write up the character in 6e I use the conception of "Natural Burn Athlete" to justify buying up my OCV,DCV, Spd to the levels I feel are appropriate to the character. If I think that the character is a small guy that doesn't get hit as often I write him up to have a higher DCV than OCV base. The difference between the trained characters and the Natural born character could be they have skill levels and he has bought OCV.

 

6e doesn't prevent you from writing up the character you like, it allows you to make the character's stats any way you like.

 

I guess what I am saying in in 6e I can have my cake and eat it too. I can use the idea of figured characteristics to get a baseline for what I think the character needs, but I am not trapped by them like I am in 5e

[JmOz]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

I guess the difference between 5e and 6e is that When I am writting up a character with natural ability in 5e I get stuff automatically. When I write up the character in 6e I use the conception of "Natural Burn Athlete" to justify buying up my OCV,DCV, Spd to the levels I feel are appropriate to the character. If I think that the character is a small guy that doesn't get hit as often I write him up to have a higher DCV than OCV base. The difference between the trained characters and the Natural born character could be they have skill levels and he has bought OCV.

 

6e doesn't prevent you from writing up the character you like, it allows you to make the character's stats any way you like.

 

I guess what I am saying in in 6e I can have my cake and eat it too. I can use the idea of figured characteristics to get a baseline for what I think the character needs, but I am not trapped by them like I am in 5e

 

I do wish that 6th had included a sidebar that would have included the old formulas to give players a guideline on how characteristics can interact with each other

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

I'm like an addict , I can't stop responding

 

Figurers and no figurers, both can work. We just disagree on how much trouble and how restrictive both are. I can live with no figurers if I made a campaign guidelines racial templates or something but for me it is not an improvement with our playstyle.

 

The way complications work now is actually a bigger deal to me. I preferred the more open ended system where if you were willing to take more problems you got more abilities. Always evened out for me.

 

Unified power is OK but ECs work better and seem costed better FOR ME. Again not horrible but not a big deal either way. simpler but I never had any problem anyway.

 

I guess thats the thing. 6th seems fine and well thought out but its advantages fixed things that were never problems with my groups playstyle and created others revolved around my groups playstyle. I'm sure they could be resolved but nothing in them has has fired me to make the effort

 

That's really it. Nothing about it has me fired up enough to make the adaptations to fit our group. There nothing terribly wrong . I just have no problems, I can do anything I want, including stuff many tell me I can't with 5th, and nothing has made me say . Wow! thins would improve my game so much I need to switch.

 

So when my two copies of 5th die I'll switch. Unless 7th is out by then with something uber. Until then on cool new stuff like Mythic HERO etc.

[phookz]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

The way complications work now is actually a bigger deal to me. I preferred the more open ended system where if you were willing to take more problems you got more abilities. Always evened out for me.

 

I think I may have missed something when I read the rules. I thought complications worked basically the same as disadvantages did. Have I missed something? I'll have to check the rules again when I get home.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

I'd point out that the complications stuff is basically a change in guidelines, while some of the other changes are to the actual game mechanics. I think, as has been mentioned much earlier in this thread, there were basically about 5 or 6 major mechanics changes--elimination of COM, delinking of characteristics, removal of elemental controls, killing attack stun multipliers, changes in costing and effectiveness of adjustment powers, and a few things here and there--that were deal-killers for the holdouts.

[Ternaugh]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

Disadvantages were only really "open" at the top in pre-4th edition days (remember the "good old days" of taking extra Disads and having to multiply the points by 1/2 or 1/4?). From 4th onward, it's been customary to list starting character guidelines as the total number of starting points, in the "Total (Base + Disads)" format. Compare the Character Types Guidelines Tables on 4e 11, 5er 28, and 6e 34, and you'll see that they're mostly similar. The only real difference is that 6e leaves off the "Base Points" column. To get to the Total in 4e or 5e, you'd still have to take Disadvantages ("matching complications") equal to the total in the Max Points from Disadvantages column.

 

JoeG

[Wolf]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

Yah, this... I've played since 4th, and never have I even considered it an interpretation of the rules that you can just "keep" taking disads to get more points. We've always played (including the dude who "brought me into Hero") that the GM sets the total limit of disads available when he sets the points. And when we talk about point total for characters when we are asking how much points to build a character on for "tonight's game" the "total points" are told (example: 350 points), then usually someone asks, "so that's with 50 points of disads?" And unless it's not set at 50 the answer is yes.

 

I seem to remember it even going so far as to say in the rules that you can feel free to take more disads, you just don't get any CP out of them. Not to gang up on you here, but yah, that's totally a foreign concept to me (this is the first I've ever even heard this line of thought (even if I may have read it earlier, and just don't remember it, I am getting old after all), even from friends who bothered to read the rules, most don't...), and there is no way in heck I'd ever let players do that, never, even if it is a rule that I read wrong. Sorry, but, yah, that's how I see it.

 

P.S. Steamtech: please don't see this as an attack, it seriously totally took me off guard, and I had to voice my surprise and feelings on the matter. I apologize right now if it reads as an attack.

[Tasha]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

Disadvantages were only really "open" at the top in pre-4th edition days (remember the "good old days" of taking extra Disads and having to multiply the points by 1/2 or 1/4?). From 4th onward, it's been customary to list starting character guidelines as the total number of starting points, in the "Total (Base + Disads)" format. Compare the Character Types Guidelines Tables on 4e 11, 5er 28, and 6e 34, and you'll see that they're mostly similar. The only real difference is that 6e leaves off the "Base Points" column. To get to the Total in 4e or 5e, you'd still have to take Disadvantages ("matching complications") equal to the total in the Max Points from Disadvantages column.

 

JoeG

 

I don't think that it occurred to them the ridiculous extremes players would take the open ended disad rules to. I always got the feeling that the original campaigns had a soft point limit that the players just "knew". I think that George was surprised by how players would come up with 400 pts or more in disads to pay for characters with crazy amounts of powers/ and power level. Remember they really didn't give any guidelines for character creation besides "here's 100 free points + the disads we suggest you take to have more fun". I think they got a better idea of the wild distributions of powerlevels during the AOL Heroboards era.

 

PS it's not a game breaking thing to allow 6e disads to "work" the way 5e disads. It's not much of a houserule and it's easy to get HD to work with it.

3rd edition DOES have power guildelines (see Champs 3rd ed pg 96 the column titled "Reasonable Characters") where they defined a reasonable character as being 250pts total with Dex Range 18-30 avg 20-23, Con 18-33 avg 18-23, PD/ED 8-28 avg 12-18, SPD 4-6, avg 5, Attacks 40-60pts, Defenses 20-40pts, Movement 10-40pts. It also goes on to remind players that new characters represent "Beginning Heroes" that will grow quickly. So it appears that both stat levels and 150pts of Disads were coded into the game since 3rd edition

[Tasha]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

Yah, this... I've played since 4th, and never have I even considered it an interpretation of the rules that you can just "keep" taking disads to get more points. We've always played (including the dude who "brought me into Hero") that the GM sets the total limit of disads available when he sets the points. And when we talk about point total for characters when we are asking how much points to build a character on for "tonight's game" the "total points" are told (example: 350 points), then usually someone asks, "so that's with 50 points of disads?" And unless it's not set at 50 the answer is yes.

 

I seem to remember it even going so far as to say in the rules that you can feel free to take more disads, you just don't get any CP out of them. Not to gang up on you here, but yah, that's totally a foreign concept to me (this is the first I've ever even heard this line of thought (even if I may have read it earlier, and just don't remember it, I am getting old after all), even from friends who bothered to read the rules, most don't...), and there is no way in heck I'd ever let players do that, never, even if it is a rule that I read wrong. Sorry, but, yah, that's how I see it.

 

P.S. Steamtech: please don't see this as an attack, it seriously totally took me off guard, and I had to voice my surprise and feelings on the matter. I apologize right now if it reads as an attack.

 

No offense to Steamtech, but that was the way we played 2nd edition way back in our Munchkin days. 400-500 pt characters with ridiculous disads and powerlimits 16d6 attacks, powerlevels all over the board. We had a lot of fun playing that way, but when we found a good point limit it became more fun for the whole party. Our problem was that powerlevel was all over the place meaning that they 16d6 guy would wipe the floor with the opposition and the 8d6 character wouldn't be able to do much.

 

Having said that. I have run game with point limits that could be exceeded with more Disads (with GM's permission) as long as the character's attacks etc fell within my tightly set campaign guidelines.

 

So again, I can't see how the Disads thingie is that much of a deal breaker. It's really easy to fix and doesn't break the game to just houserule the disad limit. Just say that if characters need to exceed the 400pt limit they can take disads in excess of the 75pts and add that to the character's point total. ie a character wants to take another 25pts in disads to fit their concept. the Character becomes 425pts including 100pts of disads. See fixed!

[Wolf]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

Oh, I see his point... At some point you have to look at conversion time vs. cash investment vs. Set-in-my-ways-itus vs. willingness of the core gaming group to deal with the same things. And that equals [edit: okay, not equals, but greatly influences] your desire to change. Probably why the APG works best for him. It looks like the things that he uses out of 6th will be less than the things he uses out of 5th, so it just doesn't justify the output of moneys. I say cool... I'm that way about some things... after spending a dogs age trying to get weapon speed factors to work right with the 3.x system, I finally just gave in and said, I prefer 2nd ed.

[Ternaugh]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

I don't think that it occurred to them the ridiculous extremes players would take the open ended disad rules to. I always got the feeling that the original campaigns had a soft point limit that the players just "knew". I think that George was surprised by how players would come up with 400 pts or more in disads to pay for characters with crazy amounts of powers/ and power level. Remember they really didn't give any guidelines for character creation besides "here's 100 free points + the disads we suggest you take to have more fun". I think they got a better idea of the wild distributions of powerlevels during the AOL Heroboards era.

 

PS it's not a game breaking thing to allow 6e disads to "work" the way 5e disads. It's not much of a houserule and it's easy to get HD to work with it.

3rd edition DOES have power guildelines (see Champs 3rd ed pg 96 the column titled "Reasonable Characters") where they defined a reasonable character as being 250pts total with Dex Range 18-30 avg 20-23, Con 18-33 avg 18-23, PD/ED 8-28 avg 12-18, SPD 4-6, avg 5, Attacks 40-60pts, Defenses 20-40pts, Movement 10-40pts. It also goes on to remind players that new characters represent "Beginning Heroes" that will grow quickly. So it appears that both stat levels and 150pts of Disads were coded into the game since 3rd edition

 

Yup. I almost suggested penciling in a "Base Points" column on the 6e chart.

 

And I'll fully admit, I was too lazy to hit my 2nd and 3rd edition materials, as they are in another room, and not as convenient as the PDFs for searching.

 

JoeG

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

No offense taken Tasha. To me its just another example of things that are not a problem and work fine for my group that others run into snags with. My condolences about your earlier groups. It works for us and characters all play just fine together. There is a huge difference between Munchkining and simply making a character until its done and stopping. frankly no offense Tasha but it makes me feel very group superior. I know that's snobby but that's what my gut feels every time I hear something like that.

 

 

Now for the last time because only Wolf seems to have heard me and everyone else wants to nitpick about how things can be fixed( when most of the time they really don't seem understand my objections anyway)

 

The advantages gained compared to what is lost and has to be homeruled is a more trouble than it is worth to me. period

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

Yah,

 

 

 

P.S. Steamtech: please don't see this as an attack, it seriously totally took me off guard, and I had to voice my surprise and feelings on the matter. I apologize right now if it reads as an attack.

 

 

Don't worry about it. Compared to everything else no way could I construe this as an attack. I guess I always felt the disadvantage limits were guidelines and not hard and fast rules whereas the complications seemed to have solidified it and codified to me what was GM option territory and subtly changed it from adding on points to a set inflexible having to take a set amount. Guidelines vs rules I suppose. Maybe I've always interpreted HERO as lots more flexible than it really is or at least more than others do. All the new stuff is able yo be fixed but as I've tried to make people understand why bother if I see no real gain.

 

Way easier to just use the PD/ED object chart from 6th and play 5th and call it a day.

[phookz]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

The advantages gained compared to what is lost and has to be homeruled is a more trouble than it is worth to me. period

 

There is certainly nothing wrong with that, or really any position.

 

I did go back and look at the new complication rules again - I never noticed, or maybe forgot that I noticed, how it was changed in 6E. Mathematically it's still the same but I think it's actually more confusing now than it was.

 

Instead of saying you receive X base points + up to Y points in complications, you now get up to X points but you have to have Y matching points in complications, and for every 1 CP by which you don't meet the matching complications amount reduces your total points by 1.

 

Mathematically it's the same, but I think it was simpler before.

[JmOz]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

There is certainly nothing wrong with that' date=' or really [i']any[/i] position.

 

I did go back and look at the new complication rules again - I never noticed, or maybe forgot that I noticed, how it was changed in 6E. Mathematically it's still the same but I think it's actually more confusing now than it was.

 

Instead of saying you receive X base points + up to Y points in complications, you now get up to X points but you have to have Y matching points in complications, and for every 1 CP by which you don't meet the matching complications amount reduces your total points by 1.

 

Mathematically it's the same, but I think it was simpler before.

 

Agreed, I think that the current system is more accurate for how people NORMALY played, but the complication of the new way outfits any "this is more accurate" we gain by it

[Tasha]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

No offense taken Tasha. To me its just another example of things that are not a problem and work fine for my group that others run into snags with. My condolences about your earlier groups. It works for us and characters all play just fine together. There is a huge difference between Munchkining and simply making a character until its done and stopping. frankly no offense Tasha but it makes me feel very group superior. I know that's snobby but that's what my gut feels every time I hear something like that.

 

 

Now for the last time because only Wolf seems to have heard me and everyone else wants to nitpick about how things can be fixed( when most of the time they really don't seem understand my objections anyway)

 

The advantages gained compared to what is lost and has to be homeruled is a more trouble than it is worth to me. period

 

That was the group that I played with over 20 years ago. They/we matured out of it and we played much differently later. In all of the groups that I played with through the years, I could never find one that understood what your group seems to understand. How to write up their characters with no or few compromises to their conception. All paid for with Disads. Members of my current group could probably deal with it, but not any others I have played with.

 

The things that were fixed in 6e really weren't a problem with my group either, but once I used them they seem to fit our character building style pretty well. YMMV

 

Sorry, I got caught up in the Disads which of the things you don't like about 6e seems to be the easiest to fix (since it's an optional fix for each player to decide whether or not their character needs to exceed the campaign point limits)

[Tasha]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

There is certainly nothing wrong with that' date=' or really [i']any[/i] position.

 

I did go back and look at the new complication rules again - I never noticed, or maybe forgot that I noticed, how it was changed in 6E. Mathematically it's still the same but I think it's actually more confusing now than it was.

 

Instead of saying you receive X base points + up to Y points in complications, you now get up to X points but you have to have Y matching points in complications, and for every 1 CP by which you don't meet the matching complications amount reduces your total points by 1.

 

Mathematically it's the same, but I think it was simpler before.

 

It's actually easier to explain to Noobs. You tell them to build their character with a total of 400pts and to take 75pts of Disads. Easy. Before you had to explain about base points and how disads added to that total to get to their total of 350pts.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

I could never find one that understood what your group seems to understand. How to write up their characters with no or few compromises to their conception. All paid for with Disads. Members of my current group could probably deal with it, but not any others I have played with.

 

 

I'm very very lucky with my group. We have pretty much all played together for 20 plus years though and it helps

[RexMundi]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

Folks are always lucky whern they have a long term consistant group. Often though, that means they tend not to see the forest because of the trees. I keep seeing the "They Fixed Stuff We didn't think needed Fixing......"........

 

Like I said before I wish I had a dollar for everytime I've heard that for multitudes of other game systems. Thing is though, often, it did need fixing. Because while it was fine for an isolated group that had mastered kludge-ing and point scrounging and mastered all of the old Goodman's Rules etc.......It really stank up the playing field for forward momentum in a very niche orientated industry.

 

I remember when I picked up 4th I had a spaz because now I had to do more work with Growth, to get extra movement, scaled to size etc etc ......I got over it, kludged it back in. Then Fred rolls along, and they sidebar-ed in the kludge factor to make it less "thought needing", now 6th, Comes full circle with scaled balance to the over all power. It's now intuitive again. Especially to someone new.

 

When you see a Signifigant portion of your sales market run off to an inferior system, because kludge became the "norm", and the folks that had no issue with that, weren't going to A: Incorporate more people into their established group (Let's face it, Long Term Groups are very territorial and exclusionist and often for good reason.), and B: Buy more product, you need to come up with something to drive the game so to speak. That's why you get new editions of anything, from Flowers to grow in your garden to RPG's to new Toaster Streudels to Car Models. If you don't move with the demand, you lose out to those that do.

 

Now a lot of folks will go "So what". Me and my group are Happy with "this". Like I said that's fine if you are lucky enough to have that kind of group, but the reality and the real world is, most of us don't have groups like this. Used to. I remember my "good old days", and I still run into those folks at Con's across the country and when you got folks still keeping in touch with you because of a game and crossing 3000 miles or more to play once or twice a year, or keeping contact in a War Zone, or on a Submarine sitting on the bottom of the Atlantic, you know you had a good game back then....and great players.

 

The lay of the land is different now. Communications different. Gaming is different. Different in fact seems to be the name of the game, as well as a factor of "ease". Folks move around more communicate with people further abroad then they used to, their attention spans are different, even the Comic Industry has started to reflect that so it's not suprising a lot of the games that evolved from THAT interest are finding the need to keep up. I still think, that if there hadn't been overlap on the game shelves between 5th and 6e product, at least 50% of the "sticking to 5th" wouldn't even be there.

 

I think, one of the stronger reasons that a lot of folks really aren't tossing out there for staying, is the Giant amount of Kludge work and home rules many of us cobbled together over the decades of playing this game. Stuff of our own work so to speak, and stuff our respective selves and players and or groups, have grown used to, if not contributed to, and their is a feeling of "failure" associated with moving on to something that works better perhaps, or at least cleaner if the result is the same, and no one likes to feel even a smidge of that, even if it's just perceived at the subconcious level, some folks will remain rooted. Horses and Oxen still plow as many fields as Tractors etc etc etc.....

 

It's pretty much always been that way though it's just that now a days we got many more avenues of communication available to us to toss out feeders for more folks that may feel the same, which is all cool, but we can now do it all in such a volume that we tend to lose track of the root of the hobby is that this is a game that we like to play with other people, and like back in the day, when us old farts were kids, it got to be a touch painful even, when everyone else wandered off to play football when you were still looking for folks to play baseball with. Folks don't like to feel that way or even consider that they are being left behind, or are LEAVING others behind, that the root of the hobby gets lost. Shame that really.

 

Still, to return to the topic, I finally loaned out the Powers Book and the HSMA book to my Semi Regular 6e campaign players. All of them are d20 Grognards for the most part. Half of them are competant with either 4th, or 5th HERO, and are stuck on those because they Liked EC's and Comeliness and Figured's because they learned all the point scrounging tricks of the game. Still, the new folks, the other half of the table, could now understand these new rules and the "feel" made more sense. The books flow better (Except for the Comparisson charts for stats in my opinion. Those could have been grouped much better in layout, and I still find it annoying the provided character sheets haven't brought back the "I'm not an Artiste!" silouhettes for us Art challenged people to doodle in and the Stat Multiples for Costs aren't part of the basic sheet anymore requiring unnessesary book flipping at times for new folks....), but in short, out of, according to my Small Con Paperwork, 5 seperate small conventions since 6e has been in my hands, 5 seperate states, dozens of games, not counting my Over Seas email/post/mail stuff and my two monthly or sometimes biweekly games, that the 6e stuff incorporates more, and is more interesting for new folk, to pick up and try. Flow means a lot in a system, and not having to stall out and explain figureds, and that kind of stuff anymore helps a LOT. Especially since like a lot of people, I don't have The "Uber Group" of players anymore, and have to slake my thirst for a good RPG, on the thin fare of d20-ish stuff out there, at least with the 6e stuff I've found I can cultivate that group again. It inspires.

 

Inspiration and imagination is really all you need, with whatever Edition you want to stick to.

 

~Rex

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

It's actually easier to explain to Noobs. You tell them to build their character with a total of 400pts and to take 75pts of Disads. Easy. Before you had to explain about base points and how disads added to that total to get to their total of 350pts.

 

I wonder if it would be better understood to say that characters get X points to spend and are required to have Y points of Complications. Then include a Perk called "Less Complicated" - for every point you spend on this perk you can reduce your required complications points by 1.

 

I don't see why the concept is difficult to grasp regardless of how it's presented, though.

[RexMundi]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

It's all about the presentation. The thing is now, the character isn't driven to overload on disads (hunted by Everyone, all the time, etc etc etc), just to feel "competitive" with the rest of the party or the things in the campaign. The Current complication set up, is also far more Comic Book like in feel and flow then the Disads were.....

 

~Rex

[Jhamin]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

I'm very very lucky with my group. We have pretty much all played together for 20 plus years though and it helps

 

I think the fact that long running groups like this are common around here may be among the biggest reasons this debate is happening.

 

In my experience every group has it's share of rules arguments, and long running groups usually come to some sort of accord. Someone either comes up with a house rule everyone can live with, or an argument for the controversial rule that sways everyone enough that they can then live with it. Groups that cannot do this either just ban sections of the system, switch to a different game, or break up.

 

After a while, you forget these rules were ever controversial in the first place. Your group is on board with them & are happy with the reasoning behind them.

 

This thinking, IMHO, is at the root off a lot of this debate. Figureds make an intuitive sort of sense to many Hero players. That intuitive "it feels right" is at the core of the system for many. Others have found that High Str=More PD just doesn't make sense for some of their characters & really prefer the new system. But if everyone you play with is in one camp or the other, then the debate doesn't even happen except on the internet (where to my knowledge the good argument vs. random blathering ratio is somewhere around 1:50)

 

I have played with two long-running groups. One for 8 years and the other for 13 (and running). The biggest single challenge I had when switching was the realization that the new group enthusiastically embraced rules I thought were terrible, but still had fun. And had fun in ways my old group never did. Their paradigm made sense to them & after running with them for a while it made sense to me too.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Who is sticking to 4th or 5th Ed HERO

 

It's all about the presentation. the thing is now, the character isn't driven to overlaod on disads (hunted by Everyone, all the time, etc etc etc), just to feel "competitive" with the rest of the party or the things in the campaign. The Current complication set up, is also far more Comic Book like in feel and flow then the Disads were.....

 

~Rex

 

Obviously I disagree for the reasons stated above..."sigh". I thin Jhamin has hit the nail on the head and there really is not an objective "better" here.