Morgaine the Mystic of Crimelords

[PamelaIsley]

Morgaine the Mystic is a character presented in Villains, Vandals, and Vermin as a member of the Crimelords. I recently purchased this book and read through it, but something has left me confused.

 

Without posting any of her specific information, Morgaine (from what I can tell) is built using a ton more points than any of the other Crimelords (and, in fact, significantly more than a standard hero/villain).

 

But nothing in the flavor text really mentions that she's supposed to be ultra-powerful. It's not even made clear that she's the most powerful of the Crimelord group, which really isn't that powerful of a villain team.

 

How powerful is Morgaine really supposed to be? Are her high point totals just a result of having a lot of varied abilities?

 

Please forgive my ignorance of the Hero rules when I ask this. I don't really know how the system functions, so I've been relying on the point totals and just guesswork to properly figure out who the powerful characters are and the relative power levels.

[Tasha]

Re: Morgaine the Mystic of Crimelords

 

Morgaine the Mystic is a character presented in one of the villain books (Vermin is in the title) as a member of the Crimelords. I recently purchased this book and read through it, but something has left me confused.

 

Without posting any of her specific information, Morgaine (from what I can tell) is built using a ton more points than any of the other Crimelords (and, in fact, significantly more than a standard hero/villain).

 

But nothing in the flavor text really mentions that she's supposed to be ultra-powerful. It's not even made clear that she's the most powerful of the Crimelord group, which really isn't that powerful of a villain team.

 

How powerful is Morgaine really supposed to be? Are her high point totals just a result of having a lot of varied abilities?

 

Please forgive my ignorance of the Hero rules when I ask this. I don't really know how the system functions, so I've been relying on the point totals and just guesswork to properly figure out who the powerful characters are and the relative power levels.

 

While I don't know what book she is from. I can say that a long skill list, tons of perks (ie contacts, favors, licences, followers, a base) and a varied list of powers can inflate the cost of a Hero character without increasing overall power level.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Morgaine the Mystic of Crimelords

 

Morgaine the Mystic can do some pretty nasty stuff with the 5E MPA rules. If you don't take advantage of that, she's going to come off as a rather poorly designed character, at least from a points efficiency standpoint.

 

IMX, typically, you would see a character like her built with an Elemental Magic EC and then a similarly themed MP for her attacks. Instead, she has 4 separate EC's...

 

Point totals are only a very rough guideline for a characters relative power level.

[Black Ops]

Re: Morgaine the Mystic of Crimelords

 

It is similar to the PL it is a Guideline Pamela.

[PamelaIsley]

Re: Morgaine the Mystic of Crimelords

 

It is similar to the PL it is a Guideline Pamela.

 

Well, if its similar to a PL level (which is closely tied to the DC of an attack, as well as your ability to resist such attacks), then she's very powerful indeed.

 

My feeling was that she was probably a high PP (power point) character, but averagish in PL.

[novi]

Re: Morgaine the Mystic of Crimelords

 

Well, if its similar to a PL level (which is closely tied to the DC of an attack, as well as your ability to resist such attacks), then she's very powerful indeed.

 

My feeling was that she was probably a high PP (power point) character, but averagish in PL.

 

That would be roughly correct. She's kinda of a funky build, but it has its merits from both flavor and rules standpoints. This way, she can use multiple attack powers at once, and she's not vulnerable to having all her abilities drained at once, avoiding one of the drawbacks elemental controls typically have.

 

OTOH, she's painfully low on END - she can easily burn through all she has in a couple of phases.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Morgaine the Mystic of Crimelords

 

That would be roughly correct. She's kinda of a funky build' date=' but it has its merits from both flavor and rules standpoints. This way, she can use multiple attack powers at once, and she's not vulnerable to having all her abilities drained at once, avoiding one of the drawbacks elemental controls typically have.[/quote']

 

No doubt about the flavor working out ok, but for the points she spent she could have just bought some more Power Defense and called it a day (she already has 10).

 

Flight and Tunneling are also not likely to be used at the same time, so that's not a particularly useful option to be paying for...

 

If the GM doesn't have her making frequent MPA's, she's essentially works out to be about a 500 pt character.

 

OTOH, she's painfully low on END - she can easily burn through all she has in a couple of phases.

 

She has an END Reserve.

[novi]

Re: Morgaine the Mystic of Crimelords

 

She has an END Reserve.

 

Huh... quickly looks in book

 

So she does. My mistake.

 

 

As to ineffective use of points, well, I just can't get worked up about that for villain builds. Sure, there's a case to be made for writing them to the same standards as PCs. But personally, I don't bother, since the GM can alter things on the fly if it makes for a better story. It helps to have a good GM, and agreement with him on what constitutes a good story, though.

[PamelaIsley]

Re: Morgaine the Mystic of Crimelords

 

One thing really puzzles me about Morgaine's background, other than her stat block.

 

Morgaine is a real mystic; meaning she can really do magic.

 

However, it says in her background that her career as a stage magician was ruined when someone revealed she was actually a mystic.

 

Does that make any sense?

 

Why would people care that Morgaine was doing REAL magic instead of STAGE magic? Aren't people more likely to stop going to her perfomances if they find out everything is "fake" or someone reveals her trade secrets.

 

I just don't see why Morgaine's career would suffer at all. In fact, I think she could probably make more money as a real mystic than as a supercriminal, but perhaps that's wrong.

 

Also, contrast Morgaine's status with Sapphire. Sapphire is more popular as an entertainer because she's a superhero. You'd think Morgaine would have the same kind of boost.

[Yansuf]

Re: Morgaine the Mystic of Crimelords

 

One thing really puzzles me about Morgaine's background, other than her stat block.

 

Morgaine is a real mystic; meaning she can really do magic.

 

However, it says in her background that her career as a stage magician was ruined when someone revealed she was actually a mystic.

 

Does that make any sense?

 

Why would people care that Morgaine was doing REAL magic instead of STAGE magic? Aren't people more likely to stop going to her perfomances if they find out everything is "fake" or someone reveals her trade secrets.

 

I just don't see why Morgaine's career would suffer at all. In fact, I think she could probably make more money as a real mystic than as a supercriminal, but perhaps that's wrong.

 

Also, contrast Morgaine's status with Sapphire. Sapphire is more popular as an entertainer because she's a superhero. You'd think Morgaine would have the same kind of boost.

 

I agree completely.

[Black Ops]

Re: Morgaine the Mystic of Crimelords

 

I just go and check up her M & M Version.

 

Oooops sorry she is by you.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Morgaine the Mystic of Crimelords

 

One thing really puzzles me about Morgaine's background, other than her stat block.

 

Morgaine is a real mystic; meaning she can really do magic.

 

However, it says in her background that her career as a stage magician was ruined when someone revealed she was actually a mystic.

 

Does that make any sense?

 

Why would people care that Morgaine was doing REAL magic instead of STAGE magic? Aren't people more likely to stop going to her perfomances if they find out everything is "fake" or someone reveals her trade secrets.

 

I just don't see why Morgaine's career would suffer at all. In fact, I think she could probably make more money as a real mystic than as a supercriminal, but perhaps that's wrong.

 

Also, contrast Morgaine's status with Sapphire. Sapphire is more popular as an entertainer because she's a superhero. You'd think Morgaine would have the same kind of boost.

 

Spin it this way: that's what she thinks happens, but since she's nuts, what actually happened was that her behaviour eventually alienated booking agents, the fanbase....

[PamelaIsley]

Re: Morgaine the Mystic of Crimelords

 

Spin it this way: that's what she thinks happens' date=' but since she's nuts, what actually happened was that her behaviour eventually alienated booking agents, the fanbase....[/quote']

 

Is she actually unstable?

 

That is a better spin, but it clashes a bit with the actual language of the background text, that points out that audiences turned on her when they found out she was doing real magic. This produces the somewhat ridiculous conclusion that audiences preferred it when what they were seeing was "fake."

 

A better backstory would probably be that she simply found supervillainy more profitable, or she was hungry for more mystical power and that required stealing artifacts or books or whatever.

 

If I used her in a DC-based campaign that I semi-run, that is how I would introduce her.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Morgaine the Mystic of Crimelords

 

I think you need to consider this within the context of a superhuman world. In this environment the real inborn ability of certain people to teleport, become invisible, change matter into different forms, etc. is well established in the public consciousness. People in the real world who go to see stage magicians perform are aware that what they're watching is a trick. The appeal is the artistry of the magician in making an illusion convincing, and the wonder of the audience at what mechanism she used to achieve it. This would naturally be emphasized even more in a world with superpowers. Where's the artistry in someone who can just wave her hand and make something go "poof?"

[PamelaIsley]

Re: Morgaine the Mystic of Crimelords

 

I think you need to consider this within the context of a superhuman world. In this environment the real inborn ability of certain people to teleport' date=' become invisible, change matter into different forms, etc. is well established in the public consciousness. People in the real world who go to see stage magicians perform are aware that what they're watching is a trick. The appeal is the artistry of the magician in making an illusion convincing, and the wonder of the audience at what mechanism she used to achieve it. This would naturally be emphasized even more in a world with superpowers. Where's the artistry in someone who can just wave her hand and make something go "poof?"[/quote']

 

This is possible.

 

Another explanation is the Michael Caine character in The Prestige's point that people feel safer knowing it is a trick and that real magic doesn't exist. I forget the exact quote, and it was unconvincing to me when watching the film, but it's out there as another theory.

 

My own thoughts though are that in a superhuman world, with real magic or something approximating it (if you believe Defender), stage magic would be largely replaced by people like Morgaine, who can do more elaborate tricks and the artistry would be in the showmanship and presentation, not so much in the actual trick, itself. If a real wizard started performing in public, I think more people would want to see that show, than to see a dexterous sleight of hand display by a Las Vegas stage magician.

 

These kind of considerations though go down the road of all that would change in a world where superhumans and mutants are everywhere and that's not really a debate I want to have, because I probably come down further on the "realism" side than Champions.

 

I just find Morgaine's background is a little illogical in any case.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Morgaine the Mystic of Crimelords

 

It makes sense to me ... half of the fun of watching a stage magician is wondering 'how'd he do that?'. Suddenly ... you have an answer. Not quite so entertaining.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Morgaine the Mystic of Crimelords

 

Is she actually unstable?

 

That is a better spin, but it clashes a bit with the actual language of the background text, that points out that audiences turned on her when they found out she was doing real magic. This produces the somewhat ridiculous conclusion that audiences preferred it when what they were seeing was "fake."

 

A better backstory would probably be that she simply found supervillainy more profitable, or she was hungry for more mystical power and that required stealing artifacts or books or whatever.

 

If I used her in a DC-based campaign that I semi-run, that is how I would introduce her.

The text material allows, although doesn't require, a diagnosis that suggests that Morgaine's understanding of her own personal history is likely to be very far off from reality.

 

Steven S. Long:

Morgaine is self-centred, vain, greedy, and often arrogant. She has a sort of air of confidence bordering on haughtiness about her that often rubs people the wrong way. Fortunately for her peace of mind, she doesn't care at all what other people think of her.

 

I've met people like that.

Per Wikipedia:

 

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders fourth edition, DSM IV-TR, a widely used manual for diagnosing mental disorders, defines narcissistic personality disorder (in Axis II Cluster B) as:[6]

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

1. has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
   
2. is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
   
3. believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
   
4. requires excessive admiration
   
5. has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
   
6. is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
   
7. lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
   
8. is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her
   
9. shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes
   

It is also a requirement of DSM-IV that a diagnosis of any specific personality disorder also satisfies a set of general personality disorder criteria.

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders fourth edition, DSM IV-TR, a widely used manual for diagnosing mental disorders, defines narcissistic personality disorder (in Axis II Cluster B) as:[6]

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

1. has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
   
2. is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
   
3. believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
   
4. requires excessive admiration
   
5. has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
   
6. is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
   
7. lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
   
8. is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her
   
9. shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes
   

It is also a requirement of DSM-IV that a diagnosis of any specific personality disorder also satisfies a set of general personality disorder criteria.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_Personality_Disorder)

[novi]

Re: Morgaine the Mystic of Crimelords

 

Another possibility is that people don't want to be around magic in the same way they don't want to be around radiation. You know, stage magic/illusion is fine and all, but keep me away from that demon-summoning stuff. I like my soul where it is, etc.

 

Sure, in some ways it's an arbitrary distinction, but in a world with evil wizards, demons, and liches running around, might people not have a bad reaction to 'magic'?

 

Especially if 'everyone knows' that people with powers always get involved in superbattles?

[Doctor Agenda]

Re: Morgaine the Mystic of Crimelords

 

Good point. It might be a lot harder to get volunteers from the audience if they were concerned they might accidentally get permanently turned into a newt.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Morgaine the Mystic of Crimelords

 

Does that make any sense?

 

Depends a lot on context. Super powers are something we would all be amazed by. People that fly, shoot laser beams or walk on water are the stuff of myth, fiction and religion in our world.

 

They are all on the evening news every night in the CU

 

Why would people care that Morgaine was doing REAL magic instead of STAGE magic?

 

I don't think it's about her talent and ability, it's that she built her reputation on lies. Sorta like Milli Vanilli...

 

She went from being a woman of vast skill to being just another super. Depending on her reaction or how her rival spun things, it could have gone bad fast.

 

Also, contrast Morgaine's status with Sapphire. Sapphire is more popular as an entertainer because she's a superhero. You'd think Morgaine would have the same kind of boost.

 

Not really. The only thing they have in common is they are female performers that were born with powers.

 

Sapphire was an international superstar with considerable vocal talent before she ever manifested her powers. Her first ever use of her powers was putting down a bunch of supervillians attacking her concert. She's a hero that loves using her abilites for the benefit of everyone and completely open about it. You go to a Sapphire concert and you know those fancy blue special effects are coming from the girl on stage. It's part of the package.

 

Morgain is a greedy and arrogant woman that put herself in the poorhouse with her lies and extravagant lifestyle. She decided as a little girl that her powers were something she had to keep hidden from everyone and that were to be used only for her own personal gain. When her secret was revealed, it was a scandal.

 

All that said, Morgain gets points for being into the ménage

 

But she loses points for being a totally selfish wench and ruining everyones fun

[PamelaIsley]

Re: Morgaine the Mystic of Crimelords

 

Very reasonable theories.

 

I don't really agree, but I can see the other side.

 

I think if I used Morgaine in my non-Champions campaigns, I'd just tweak it more to my liking anyway.

 

If I ever ran a Champions campaign, I probably would use her outside the Crimelords, so that would require changes also.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Morgaine the Mystic of Crimelords

 

 

Sapphire was an international superstar with considerable vocal talent before she ever manifested her powers. Her first ever use of her powers was putting down a bunch of supervillians attacking her concert. She's a hero that loves using her abilites for the benefit of everyone and completely open about it. You go to a Sapphire concert and you know those fancy blue special effects are coming from the girl on stage. It's part of the package.

 

Perhaps more to the point, Sapphire's powers have nothing to do with her performance. She's a light projector (basically), but her primary talent is singing, which her powers don't help with. Morgaine used her powers as the primary source of her performance, replacing actual talent on stage. If Sapphire were a sound manipulator, and used her hypnotic voice to bolster her fanbase ("It was much better than Cats. We will see it again and again."), there would be a comparison.

[PamelaIsley]

Re: Morgaine the Mystic of Crimelords

 

Perhaps more to the point' date=' Sapphire's powers have nothing to do with her performance. She's a light projector (basically), but her primary talent is singing, which her powers don't help with. Morgaine used her powers as the primary source of her performance, replacing actual talent on stage. If Sapphire were a sound manipulator, and used her hypnotic voice to bolster her fanbase ("It was much better than Cats. We will see it again and again."), there would be a comparison.[/quote']

 

That's pre-supposing two things:

 

1. That there are ways to accurately determine the exact nature of a superhuman's powers.

 

2. People know the exact nature of Sapphire and Morgaine's powers.

 

I also think Sapphire's popularity, in a real world context, would be enhanced because of her superhero status. I think Morgaine could have mortgaged her status the same way, as a superhuman willing to perform before a public audience.

 

I really doubt, even in Champions, that people are so bored with the feats of the several thousand superhumans that their appetites for live power displays are sated and that superhumans wouldn't be treated as celebrities.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Morgaine the Mystic of Crimelords

 

That's pre-supposing two things:

 

1. That there are ways to accurately determine the exact nature of a superhuman's powers.

 

2. People know the exact nature of Sapphire and Morgaine's powers.

 

I also think Sapphire's popularity, in a real world context, would be enhanced because of her superhero status. I think Morgaine could have mortgaged her status the same way, as a superhuman willing to perform before a public audience.

 

I really doubt, even in Champions, that people are so bored with the feats of the several thousand superhumans that their appetites for live power displays are sated and that superhumans wouldn't be treated as celebrities.

 

Since there are people in the CU who can create custom-made superhumans, 1 seems to be obvious. Since Sapphire is publically outed as a mutant, and Morgaine's background specifies she was outed as a true mystic, 2 seems obvious as well.

 

Sapphire's popularity is certainly enhanced by her superhuman status; however, her superhuman powers do not enhance her ability to perform, whereas Morgaine's powers were the sole reason she was able to put on performances.

 

A few superheroes in the CU have chosen to use their superhero status to join the ranks of celebrities ... Sapphire, Teen Dream, Cavalier ... but most of them seem to be more concerned about just being the good guys rather than trying to be famous.

[PamelaIsley]

Re: Morgaine the Mystic of Crimelords

 

Since there are people in the CU who can create custom-made superhumans' date=' 1 seems to be obvious. Since Sapphire is publically outed as a mutant, and Morgaine's background specifies she was outed as a true mystic, 2 seems obvious as well.[/quote']

 

Their status as having super powers is outed. But the exact nature? Each and every power detailed?

 

What kind of test would determine the exact nature of someone's powers? A blood test? A mutant detector might say if someone is a mutant, but doesn't it stretch the imagination to imagine a power detector? We know because of their stat sheets, but I doubt anyone in the Champions universe, even the superhumans themselves, know the true extent of all their powers.

 

Sapphire says she is a mutant with certain powers, but how could the public know for sure that her voice is the product of her non-mutant abilities and not a part of her powers?

 

On the original issue, I just can't imagine that if people found out today that David Copperfield was a wizard, his popularity would decrease.

 

Anyway, it's just a difference in perspective. We've probably given the idea more thought here than went into the one paragraph talking about Morgaine's reasons for turning to crime originally.