Base Line Hero

[Panpiper]

I don't believe in Rules of X. I think the Hero System is complex enough for most players without having to add an additional level of math to their character construction, and any such Rule of X tends to be interpreted by the more egregious players as being simply another rule to find loopholes in. Any effort to plug such loopholes in one's Rule of X, invariably wind up turning it into a horrendously complex formula that virtually no one understands. And finally, most Rules of X I have seem are woefully inadequate when it comes to interpreting the effect of truly unusual character conceptions.

 

Instead of a Rule of X, what I tend to do for any Hero Game I am going to GM is to establish a 'Base Line Hero' for that game. Depending on the campaign of course, this hero could be quite different. What it represents is my idea of what the typical opponent might look like in terms of power. I try to keep this conception quite simple for ease of comparison. I will then describe the general power level I am expecting to my players. I might write up an example of a baseline opponent turning it typically into a basic energy projector with some flight and show that to the players, telling them that this is the approximate power level I expect.

 

Then once the players have turned in their characters, I will examine them all and compare them, usually just in my mind, to the base line hero. If the majority of the characters are more powerful than the base line, I simply increase the baseline for their future opponents. If they are all a bit too week, I reduce the baseline for their future opponents. Usually what happens however is most will fit just right. Occasionally a character might need to be beefed up a bit, and I make suggestions, and sometimes there are characters that can too easily defeat the base line hero. If those characters are a minority in the group, I will act to have them toned down to the level where they do not take the shine off of the other players.

 

As example, a typical baseline hero for a supers game with me might be like:

 

Attack: 12 DCs (+- 4 DCs)

Defense: 24 PD/ED (+- 8 PD/ED)

OCV: 8 (+- 3)

DCV: 8 (+- 3)

Speed: 5 (+- 2)

 

The numbers in brackets represent the typical range I tend to expect and easily accept in conceptions. Any increase from the baseline on the submitted character should be roughly balanced with a corresponding and opposite decrease in some other characteristic. So if a character wanted to play the 'Juggernaut' with Awesomely high strength and Defense and they submitted a character with an 80 strength and a 35 PD/ED, but the character only had an OCV and DCV of 5 and a speed of four, I would likely allow the character. Note that the PD/ED is higher still than the upper range of defense I would normally be comfortable with. That is acceptable to me because of:

 

Modifiers: Characters without quick movement and or flying can be a bit tougher. Characters without such movement AND without a ranged attack can be a little bit tougher still.

 

Obviously characters can be designed with powers that synergize their combat power, and that is why I prefer this method over a numerically calculated one. I am not looking strictly at numbers. I am looking at the overall effect on the game in terms of combat effectiveness. As a human being (as opposed to a math formula) I am well aware that having for instance a decent 'find weakness' roll complimenting a 8D6 autofire attack could well blow away everything, including the above Juggernaut. I will do a quick mental fight in my mind between the character I am looking at and the baseline hero I have defined. I want the player character to be able to win the fight, but only barely.

 

I tend not to penalize a character if they have built in extra flexibility and a wide variety of defenses (mental, power, hardened, etc.) I do not tend to penalize if they have bought up their constitution, body, stun, etc. even though those are technically combat multipliers. It is often through simply having more stun and con that a player is able to defeat an otherwise similarly powered opponent. Their greater 'heroic resolve' gives them the edge.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Base Line Hero

 

I'm not a Rule Of X fan either, I'll tend to lay out guidelines similar to those presented.

 

However I diverge with many on the idea that if you buy up one area you must have a hole in another - take the High STR High DEF example of yours, if they still spent points to have an average CV (8s) and Spd (5 or even 6) I wouldn't be bothered.

 

Two things will happen: they'll have spent so many point to get those four areas up that they are a one trick pony, or are lacking a good deal in non-combat applications; of which I expect any campaign to be split at the very minimum 50/50 on.

 

Or, they'll have placed so many Limitations on their abilities that there will be many situations preventing them from making full use of everything on a semi-regular to regular basis.

 

Bricks do not have to be slow, and I'm truly angered by the sentiment that has managed to implant itself in the Hero community at large in thinking so. It's a bad meme that should go the way of dinosaurs.

[Carnus]

Re: Base Line Hero

 

Thanks for posting up how you do it. I am keen to absorb the different methods people use till I can create or find one that is right for me.

I like your method and would probably eventually adopt something similar the only draw back I see is that it requires a pretty intimate knowledge of the system in play and myself being new still does not know how things on paper equate to things in play.

So I plan on using a combination of the rule of x as discussed in another thread and also keeping an eye on the average stats table for the different cost scales (Can't remember the table name don’t have the book in front of me)

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Base Line Hero

 

Your system looks good. Wondering though, wouldn't it be easier to make a baseline villian group ? I'm thinking a bunch of one-trick ponies that you could then run an intro battle with to see the actual effects. I think I might now have to do this for myself.

 

One thing that my friend and I are playing around with, is using the 5thr guidelines with this concept. Anything bought to 60 act pts fine (we are used to the implied limit of 60 act pts from 4th). A character can have more pts upto 80-but then he must take limitations on said power. Now we haven't even figured if there will be a minimum greater than (-1/4). Also though, there should be probally only one 80 pt act power.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Base Line Hero

 

don't buy extra running if it is cheaper to buy your speed up

the distance a character moves in 12 seconds=movement*speed

[sobran]

Re: Base Line Hero

 

Thanks for posting up how you do it. I am keen to absorb the different methods people use till I can create or find one that is right for me.

 

I like your method and would probably eventually adopt something similar the only draw back I see is that it requires a pretty intimate knowledge of the system in play and myself being new still does not know how things on paper equate to things in play.

 

So I plan on using a combination of the rule of x as discussed in another thread and also keeping an eye on the average stats table for the different cost scales (Can't remember the table name don’t have the book in front of me)

Honestly, I would say this is probably the best approach for someone new to the system. As you become more comfortable with the system, you can begin to take the training wheels off and freehand it, so to speak, as the OP suggests. It really doesn't take as long as you might expect, especially if you use your villains as experiments. The first few villains or villain groups should be largely vanilla--that is, without particularly complex or unusual powers. Gradually using opponents with more unusual abilities--in addition to noting your heroes' unusual abilities, if any--should quickly give you a good grasp of how certain power synergies work together.

 

It's the synergies that take the longest to learn and can still trip you up for quite some time. And honestly, some of these unusual abilities aren't really covered in most RoX formulas. I have one campaign under my belt, but I still find myself underestimating just how much of an effect Invisibility or Desolidification can have in combat--particularly in the hands of those damned crafty players. I also seem to have a personal weakness for forgetting to take CSLs into account when considering CVs...

[sobran]

Re: Base Line Hero

 

don't buy extra running if it is cheaper to buy your speed up

the distance a character moves in 12 seconds=movement*speed

Um.

 

 

 

 

What?

[Panpiper]

Re: Base Line Hero

 

Um.

 

 

What?

Wrong thread maybe?

 

Bricks do not have to be slow, and I'm truly angered by the sentiment that has managed to implant itself in the Hero community at large in thinking so. It's a bad meme that should go the way of dinosaurs.

I agree. It smacks of character classes, which is very un-'Heroic'. I used that example simply because it is a classic. My very first Hero character, played for several years in fact as the campaign waxed and waned, was a strength 65, decent defense 'brick' with a Dex of 38, speed of six and acrobatics. She was also very comely and had great art.

 

...wouldn't it be easier to make a baseline villian group ? I'm thinking a bunch of one-trick ponies that you could then run an intro battle with to see the actual effects. I think I might now have to do this for myself.

Technically I do create a number of such baseline characters. But in practice when looking over a character sheet, I tend to run some fairly quick mental arithmetic that usually involves that one simple comparison.

[sobran]

Re: Base Line Hero

 

... and had great art.

Is that a euphemism?

[Matt Holck]

Re: Base Line Hero

 

it's not that bricks have to be slow

it's martial artists want to be faster

 

it depends on how many players are in the game

each one is gonna want their own little specialty

bricks have strength martial artist CV

[Sean Waters]

Re: Base Line Hero

 

I don't use the Rule of X: it would exclude too many valid concepts, although what it is trying to do it make sure that no one character completely dominates - which is fine.

 

The 'rules' I use tend to be as simple as this:

 

Superhero game (all softcap guidelines):

 

Maximum attack: around 12DCs

 

Defences (PD and ED) around Max DC/2

 

Defences (rPD and rED) around Max DC

 

SPD: 4 unless there is a good reason not to

 

OCV/DCV: around 6 (usually no more than 3 combat levels + maneouvre bonuses)

 

NB Make sure that CON+(pd or ed) => Max DCx3.5

 

That gives a nice sort of starting point for a superhero character that will hold their own in combat without dominating too much. You can trade off a bit: lower CV/higher damage, or higher CV/lower defences or whatever, and as they are softcaps you can exceed them so long as you accept that the GM might ask you to tone it down a bit.

 

No matter what guidelines you have you can still find synergies that make the character a killer in combat, so you need also to use the ultimate GM balancing tool: The Eyeball. That is to say, just look at the character for obvious abuses and don't be afraid to raise issues about build even after the game has started.

 

In some games I positively encourage unbalanced characters: they can make for a very interesting game - if you don;t mind short, sharp combats

[the fox]

Re: Base Line Hero

 

I don't like the rules of x either; their too complicated and lose sight of the only thing that needs to be balanced, high defenses.

Everything else has a pretty clear limit*, but estimating defenses remains elusive to some, requiring some experience to 'keep everything in mind' while estimating.

But that's alright, I've discovered a simple way to determine defenses, using only three common factors and simple provisions for all other relevant abilities.

 

That's why I'm renaming my 'Rule of x defense' one of these names:

 

Matching Actual Defenses, or MAD, it's acronym. But this formula contains only 1 new, simple acronym, AD (average defenses, PD + ED/2)!

Unfortunately, to me MAD! also means "mutually assured destruction" and I like to say it whenever I sacrifice a starship to destroy another, "MAD!".

Plus I don't wanna be 'mad' about anything, this is but an accounting of a simple method.

 

Evasive Balance- short, to the point and descriptive too; this would make an excellent title if I wished to include an introduction on how others have endeavored to balance their characters; I do not, but I like the title anyway.

 

*to balance everything else, all you need are OCV, DCV, SPD and DC caps, like any campaign specifies;

disregarding any rule of x, only maximum defenses may be derived from any given DC cap.

 

Rule of X Defense:

So that Bricks pay for there high defenses by deficiencies in two areas; Speed and Ranged DCV.

Balanced characters pay for their speed and ability to dodge ranged attacks with points of defense.

 

DC in Actual Points minus SPD times 3, DCV times 2 and non-melee DCV CSL's times 1 equals Average Defense (AD, PD + ED/2).

-1/2 AD per 5 points Damage Reduction or Regeneration, or -1 that defense per 5 pts. Damage Reduction, -1 AD per 10 pts. Regeneration.

+/-2 AD per -/+ 1 DCV penalty/bonus due to Size Change Powers.

-2 AD for 20+ points in ALL of the following powers/advantages: Invisibility, Missile Deflection, Mental and Sense Affecting Powers or Invisible Power Effects.

 

An average defense may be found greater than maximum defense, leaving some lee-way for Bricks to increase their DCV and SPD over recommended minimum values

(example: a 6 SPD, 6 DCV Brick with no non-melee DCV CSL's, and at 12 DC. 60-18-12-0=30 AD).

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Base Line Hero

 

When I make a game and ask for PCs I test them out against a set of straw men created for the game.

 

These straw men have a generic attack, DEF, SPD, REC, BODY, STUN, OCV, DCV and SPD. I usually have three or four with different levels of each attribute.

 

I run each character through a round with each straw man assuming dice rolls of 11, one with dice rolls of 8 and one with dice rolls of 14. I then look at the damage after post segment 12 recoveries.

 

That gives me an estimate of damage given and taken over an average round, a good round and a bad round.

 

I then compare each character against each other to see how they match up. i then make decisions on how to advise the players on whether they need to be thinking of more/less damage capability or more/less CV and more/less speed. i can point out where they stand basically on a combat scale.

 

Obviously a real combat will vary more than this, but it will vary so much that it is not worth considering the esoterica. This works for me in making sure the heroes are fundamentally balanced against each other and the straw men provide me with an idea of which of them are the best core to work from in designing easy, average and difficult challenges for the players.

 

What I really need is my friend to write me up a spreadsheet to do all of the analysis for me...

 

Doc

[Vondy]

Re: Base Line Hero

 

I've found Rules of X can make for good training wheels, but they have inherent drawbacks. Most notably is that they provide a false perception of balance. It may keep characters within certain ranges overall, but hero is a complex system with enough specific exceptions that anything other than an organic evaluation by an experienced eye will leave potential loopholes to exploit, or even blunder through.

 

As a result I generally create benchmarks for the game I want to run and tell players to make their characters accordingly. The general rule is characters should be competent with a solid concept that provides areas to be "more than competent." I look examine the build for mechanical synchronicity with other builds, and consider how scenes with hem might play out and their potential impact on the story and crunchy aspects of the game.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Base Line Hero

 

One thing I see is missing though with any type of guideline, which I learned the hard way is how many pc are there? I tend to only get to run small, as in 1 to 2 player groups, and this can drastically change how combat is affected! I once ran my stepson through an adventure. I wrote up his stats closer to description than mechanics. Like 20 str is x4 times normal human, ecetra. Well it was a disaster. I took him out with Viper snipers (although giving them no range advantage was nasty!) Well, once I redid him and gave him more power to swat agents like flies, he had more fun. Anyways my point is, in a group of around 4, you usually are able to cover each other, where less than that not so much unless you have a TON of points. But I've never seen this to be taken into account. Conversly, if you have a be party, say 8 wimper usually lets people get more play time.

[torchwolf]

Re: Base Line Hero

 

One thing I see is missing though with any type of guideline' date=' which I learned the hard way is how many pc are there? I tend to only get to run small, as in 1 to 2 player groups, and this can[i'] drastically[/i] change how combat is affected! I once ran my stepson through an adventure. I wrote up his stats closer to description than mechanics. Like 20 str is x4 times normal human, ecetra. Well it was a disaster. I took him out with Viper snipers (although giving them no range advantage was nasty!) Well, once I redid him and gave him more power to swat agents like flies, he had more fun. Anyways my point is, in a group of around 4, you usually are able to cover each other, where less than that not so much unless you have a TON of points. But I've never seen this to be taken into account. Conversly, if you have a be party, say 8 wimper usually lets people get more play time.

True. Odds become very important because of how the combat system works - i.e., usually characters take at least a bit of STUN from any attack that connects.

If you are in a situation where you have few or a single player, there are three good workarounds:

1) Ensure the PCs' have a DCV advantage - about 3 higher than the OCV of most of the opponents (that is, about as many opponents as PCs can match, beyond that the opponents should have 3 or so lower OCVs than the PCs' DCVs).

and/or 2) Arrange situations so not too many of the opponents are able to attack the PCs at once (narrow passageways, ample cover, etc.). This can make the PCs feel very good about their accomplishments if they defeat superior odds by using shrewd tactics - you just have to provide the opportunity.

and/or 3) Add NPC allies that can keep some of the opposition occupied long enough to give the PCs a chance to bring down their own opponents. This option is the most work for the GM and needs to be done carefully - NPC allies need to be less capable than the PCs or they will feel superfluous, yet capable enough to survive at least 1-2 Phases of combat.

Other than that, you can compare the campaign power level guidelines; the PCs need to be around two levels better on average if they are outnumbered at 2 to 1 odds.

 

Personally I'm so used to this that I didn't think to mention it. Thanks for bringing it up (I'd rep but must spread etc.).

[GoldenAge]

Re: Base Line Hero

 

My villains come at the heroes from so many different power levels and types that I hardly worry about their character creation. I simply tell them to make someone they'd love to play. There are a few guidelines and they run along the same lines as just about everyone else above:

 

Attack: 12 DCs (+- 3 DCs)

Defense: 24 PD/ED (+- 8 PD/ED)

OCV/DCV: 8 (+- 4) (usually no more than 3 combat levels to start)

Speed: 5 (+- 1)

Total Defense: 12DC (+- 3 DCs)

 

Of course, I'm always wary of the classic "stop signs" and on the lookout for creative yet unbalancing power combinations.

For me, classic comicbook memes are the best. Does this mean that I enforce classes? Nope, but I do love a character that embraces a classic concept and sticks with it.

[Ice9]

Re: Base Line Hero

 

I mainly use guidelines similar to those above, with the rule that attacks can go over the normal limit if they have significant limitations. What constitutes a significant limitation is pretty much eyeballed - Extra Time (extra phase) on Summon? No. Extra Time (extra phase) on a Blast? Yes.

 

Speed is the one I keep the tightest bounds on, because even leaving balance aside, people with 4 SPD are going to get bored waiting for people with 9 SPD to take their many actions. For the same reason, Summoning or Duplication with more than x2 are discouraged, at least for combat purposes.

[Egyptoid]

Re: Base Line Hero

 

sorry I went somewhere else

 

 

As example, a typical baseline hero for a supers game with me might be like:

 

Attack: 12 DCs (+- 4 DCs)

Defense: 24 PD/ED (+- 8 PD/ED)

OCV: 8 (+- 3)

DCV: 8 (+- 3)

Speed: 5 (+- 2)

was this a 6th Ed. guideline?

[Panpiper]

Re: Base Line Hero

 

was this a 6th Ed. guideline?

Yes, but it includes combat levels

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Base Line Hero

 

Thx Torchwood. I think i now have a handle on it. Also another point, sometimes your Hero do quite feel powerful if they face even tough agents right of the bat. The last game I ran was 1 on 1, and since my buddy hasn't ran a character in year, what I did was, I made sure he faces thugs-basically 10 stats,boy did he have a blast, and realized how powerful even a 10D6 attack really is (compared to a normal!)

[torchwolf]

Re: Base Line Hero

 

Thx Torchwood. I think i now have a handle on it. Also another point' date=' sometimes your Hero do quite feel powerful if they face even tough agents right of the bat. The last game I ran was 1 on 1, and since my buddy hasn't ran a character in year, what I did was, I made sure he faces thugs-basically 10 stats,boy did he have a blast, and realized how powerful even a 10D6 attack really is (compared to a normal!)[/quote']

I didn't mean to imply that you didn't have a handle on it, just thought I'd write it up in some detail in case a newcomer to the system was reading this thread. Oh, and it's torchwolf, nothing to do with the BBC series.

 

I agree, it's great fun to wipe the street with some thug or agent schmucks once in a while - it puts a superhero's amazing powers in perspective. If nothing else, it's an excellent thing to throw in there if someone is failing their Streetwise roll while investigating...

[tesuji]

Re: Base Line Hero

 

Then once the players have turned in their characters, I will examine them all and compare them, usually just in my mind, to the base line hero. If the majority of the characters are more powerful than the base line, I simply increase the baseline for their future opponents. If they are all a bit too week, I reduce the baseline for their future opponents. Usually what happens however is most will fit just right. Occasionally a character might need to be beefed up a bit, and I make suggestions, and sometimes there are characters that can too easily defeat the base line hero. If those characters are a minority in the group, I will act to have them toned down to the level where they do not take the shine off of the other players.

 

I, like you, don't find rox to be tht useful.

 

I take a similar approach to you except I do a few things differently.

 

First i generate a dozen villains. usually this is like three bricks type, three blaster types, three ma/speedster types and then three individual oddball types including a mentalist, a drainer and whatever odd duck fits my campaign feel.

 

I give these dozen character to the players and tell them to build their PCs and compare them to these guys in terms of fighting them. I give some benchmarks like "you can bring him down in X-Y phases, counting misses as phases." And "against his blasts you can last A-B phases." I also provide guidelines for 'if you fall within a-b and x-y for 9 of the enemies thats fine. If you kill 1-2 of them really quick but another couple take longer thats fine. etc.

 

The primary purpose is twofold.

 

1 - give the players some guidelines to stay within before they build character so the first pass is right, if at all possible. i hate spending a lot of time balancing out down to the familiarity getting my points just right only to have the gm say "you really need 5 pts more there or you need to knock this back"

 

2. To provide a broader range of options and comparisons so we are all on the same page.

 

It also serves with some of the oddballs and even the "thirds" (the third brick, third blaster, third speedster are often unusual in some way) to spark ideas.

 

Finally, a while back i started a 'unique power" gimmick where i take 25-50 pts off the top of any character i build. i build the basic character on the rest of the points. So my 400 pt hero would be built for nuts and bolts heroing on 350. Then i take the remaining 50 pts to buy some odd and distinctive unique power that can be significant storywise in game. often these will have significant limitations which prevent them from being "combat worthy" but have significant roleplaying opotential.

 

For example, for 50 pts one can easily buy a multipower with either gradual effect, extra time, or even extra endurance and load it up with high dice healing and transforms to represent a "true healing" power which can go cure cancer in people or heal the lame etc. Who do you save? can you save everyone? How many rich people and poor people lining up to get cured?

 

Depending on the character's sfx all sorts of odd powers can be worked up under 50 cp and it gives this "blaster" something unusual and unique.

 

I tend to try and give the dirty dozen the same kinda gimmicks and to try using them as examples to nudge the players away from "every point is for combat" mindset.

 

Sometimes it works. sometimes not.