battle Wear vs. Town Wear

[tesuji]

Re: battle Wear vs. Town Wear

 

Has anyone here ever GMed a game for a PC sat as a guard of 'stuff' while the other PCs went of and had an adventure?

 

I never have in 20 odd years GMing. Dragons only fly cos they're inherently magical in nature. Stone statues only walk if a magician animates it. A zombie only only rises again by magic.

 

Magic doesn't explain away why a normal villager would blink away a strange soldiers dressed for war strolling up and down the main street. And certainly doesn't explain why the local law would ignore it.

 

 

One of the earlier posts referenced how much sense it made for pc to leave someone to guard their stuff at the inn while they were out.

 

The key element in your description is the word STRANGE...

 

In a world of dragons and walking dead and magicians throwing fireballs and flying carpets and teleporting parties and golems and what not - exactly how strange is a man walking around armed? or in armor?

 

Why of all the things fantastic happening all around are the peasants even hardly noticing the guy in armor with a sword and the local law getting their panties in a bunch?

 

ANSWER - because in a setting based on our non-fantastic historical models that might make sense and we definitely ought to enforce that since the similarites between our historical non-magical no-dragons no mages no-fireballs setting and one with all those things have to be great, right?

 

if wearibng armor and using a sword is going to get me jacked and pimp slapped and mean i spend a lot of time underequipped but being a mage means i always have my spells in case there is trouble - give me a mage.

 

or maybe the tow requires EVERYONE wear gesture hindering gloves because by common sense you dont want potential fireball throwing guys just walking around unmolested?

 

Certainly not if you want to be consistent with roughing up and causing trouble for a sword, right?

 

its just common sense.

 

oh and how do we check every stranger to make sure he isn't a shapeshifter who can transform into a bestie much more dangerous than a sword guy?

 

its just common sense, right?

 

to me there is a disconnect between a seriously fantastic setting and imposing "historical setting common sense" on an easy group to pick on. it also flies in the face of most of the genre.

 

you dont have to follow genre.

you dont even have to have your setting rules make sense.

but when you then start tossing "its common sense" and so forth as justification, you bring the setting reference into question.

 

should a peasant give an armed figure a wide berth or handle with care? Sure. just like if he saw a snake or a bear or other freqently encountered dangerous setting element.

 

should he go ape#$%^ and call in the local gendarmes when he sees an armored warrior when the guy over there with no armor and skinny to boot who just rode in might be able to incinerate everyone within a block with a few words and a gesture?

 

its just common sense.

[tesuji]

Re: battle Wear vs. Town Wear

 

In my seven years of RPG experience I have never seen one PC babysit gear while the others go and have fun. That's just bad GMing, unless that one PC really really wants to sit and do nothing.

 

Gaming is a lot about the willing suspension of disbelief. With a decent enough explanation, I can buy that forces beyond my understanding can reanimate a corpse. Some things, however, are just so ingrained in our understanding of basic human behavior that I can't buy the deviation. Personally, if I see a group of strangers armed to the teeth walking down the street, my first instinct will be to contact the guards.

 

*shrug*

 

 

and if a group of skin ny strangers with no apparant weapons walked down the same street (in a world where a mage can throw fireballs or call lightning from the sky) what would you do then?

[tesuji]

Re: battle Wear vs. Town Wear

 

FYI i haven't seen player sitting at the inn guarding the stuff either, but then I have never had anyone suggest thats that is reasonable for the setting either.

 

Don't like leaving your stuff in an inn by itself? Leave someone to guard it or hire a guard.

 

he did note hire a guard as another option but the reference still stands. also in a strange town (you are strangers, right) finding someone to trust... an issue.

[Ice9]

Re: battle Wear vs. Town Wear

 

Being allowed to carry weapons around does not mean the average civiliand DID.

Most PCs aren't exactly average civilians though. If wearing going armed is just socially frowned on, that's often not going to dissuade people who are already weird-looking strangers to the area, and who may just be passing through anyway.

 

As for a PC guarding equipment - yeah, that's ridiculous. If towns aren't safe enough to keep your equipment stored, then I'm definitely going to keep wearing it - I have no interest in acting stupid for the benefit of "hur hur, you lost your stuff" sidetracks. The more problematic case though, is that leaving the equipment may be perfectly safe (as far as the GM is concerned), but the players are paranoid and don't know/trust that.

 

 

A point of disconnect might be the different settings that people run in. In a low-magic setting which is substantially similar to the historical past, with mages and monsters being too rare to make much difference in society, then sure, armed guys could be cause for alarm, and it makes sense to deal with that. In a setting where mages that can flambe people are found in most towns, and monsters are a major thing to worry about, then people with swords are the least of your problems ... at least you can see their weapons.

[mayapuppies]

Re: battle Wear vs. Town Wear

 

Tesuji, you quote my posts and then use them out of context. The game world you're comparing them too isn't the game world I'm playing in. There are no dragons. No legions of undead wandering around. Fireball throwing mages are exceptionally rare and under legal obligations to show who they are. Magic takes enough time to cast that they can be interrupted and stopped. D&D-esque (or even mixed martial arts style) monks do not exist.

 

what you are doing is comparing apples and oranges, the only similarity is that they are fruit. The only similarity between the game you use as a basis for your reference and mine is that they are fantasy games. So, as I said much earlier, those who run high fantasy/wild west style games are the ones that seem to be against the restriction of weapons and armor and those that run games based less on video games and more on the real world are for it.

 

There isn't a right or wrong to this as evidenced by the number of players each GM has within their games. There is obviously no "screwing the PC's" going on, or we GM's who restrict wouldn't have any. You seem to be arguing as if this is a black & white situation when it clearly isn't. Not a single one of my players would say I was screwing them and I highly doubt any of Markdocs would either. Yourself and your players likely would, but that's because you are playing a different style of campaign.

[mayapuppies]

Re: battle Wear vs. Town Wear

 

and if a group of skin ny strangers with no apparant weapons walked down the same street (in a world where a mage can throw fireballs or call lightning from the sky) what would you do then?

I'd nuke them from orbit...

[Beast]

Re: battle Wear vs. Town Wear

 

for me this has gotten to a point where you have to ask the question

 

Is it going to add to the story or is the GM just messing with the players

 

for me if it adds to the story then I'm all for it

If the GM is just messing with the players then I can find another game(once can be fun if it happens everytime the party get into a town or a city then it is abuse)

 

now if the players do as asked and do not make some pre-cautions(hiring some servants or leaving an absent player's character to guard all that heavy firepower) then they may need a lesson

DNPC's can easily be had for this kind of duty

the frequency does not matter as it just means how often they get into trouble

also having a servant will give credibilty to the station of that character

[mayapuppies]

Re: battle Wear vs. Town Wear

 

I think that another aspect of this conversation is the assumption that because "we" are making the players stow their gear that "we" are going to automatically "screw them over" whether that is attacking them with overwhelming force while they're "naked" or steal their lewtz.

 

In all honesty that is a terribly false assumption. In my 30 years of GMing, I have only once actually stolen anything from a PC and that was because the item was a MacGuffin as it was.

[Ragnarok]

Re: battle Wear vs. Town Wear

 

and if a group of skin ny strangers with no apparant weapons walked down the same street (in a world where a mage can throw fireballs or call lightning from the sky) what would you do then?

 

Whether they're skinny or not is irrelevant. Skinny does not = mage, just as buff does not always = fighter. I tend to shy away from RPG body-type stereotypes in my worlds.

 

Now, if they're wearing strange robes with strange, mystical designs that I am wholly unfamiliar with, I would mention it to a guard for further investigation. If their story checks out with the authorities, I go back to selling my wares.

 

If they're unarmed and dressed in a familiar manner, I have no reason to suspect them unless they act strangely too.

[Lezentauw]

Re: battle Wear vs. Town Wear

 

Just because D&D did not do things to address the balance of offensive magic & defensive magic does not mean that every other setting is limited to that predestined route. With some forethought, I am sure that you can come up with ways to suppress magic, or at least increase detection of magic. Wards against fire, any type of fire, would be something highly desired in a town. After all, fire was one of the most feared things to a town...

 

With every advancement, there is a potential for a counter. You get a new undetectable poison, and someone will sooner or later someone will come up with a way to detect it or the anti-toxin. You come up with a new radar guided missile, and someone will come up with a way to shoot that missile down before it gets to its target. Magic is no different. If mages really do throw fireballs around as much as you propose, well there will be magic to deter such things from happening. Once the magic plane is evened again, then you are back to limiting swords.

 

As has been stated numerous times, the guards of a town are going to what they can to keep the people safe as they can. IF they don't, then they could pay for it with their life. Even if you think it is not logical, they would still rather only deal with magic rather than a city full of invaders with swords & magic. Besides if magic is so common, then would not mages also be a part of the guard?

 

Where these ideas really come to play, is in a campaign where magic is not so prevalent. Low Magic campaigns or Sword & Sorcery campaigns both can really benefit from these ideas. Can you say 5 minutes to summon the entity to cast the desired spell anyone?

 

And, no the idea does not fly in the face of the genre, just some peoples interpretation of the genre... After all low magic and sword & sorcery are very much a part of the genre...

 

Instead, by being so against this idea, I interpret what you are saying that since the guards think that because they cannot stop magic, that they should also be inept and just let any group of strangers into town fully armed. After all since they can't stop magic, they might as well just let this group of armed assassins in...

[Curufea]

Re: battle Wear vs. Town Wear

 

I've never thought of mages as thin. I've always thought of them as fat. A bit like IT professionals. Spending all their time sitting around and with a job that pays so well it tends to lead to indulgence. The wizards of Discworld are ideal examples.

[Ragnarok]

Re: battle Wear vs. Town Wear

 

I've never understood why mages are supposed to be skinny. I think the common argument goes that since they study so much they atrophy.

 

So, a powerful, intelligent person cannot manage to set aside 30 minutes of physical activity?

 

Really?

[The Suave]

Re: battle Wear vs. Town Wear

 

Adventurer mages would not be particularly fat or atrophied I would assume.

[tesuji]

Re: battle Wear vs. Town Wear

 

Tesuji, you quote my posts and then use them out of context.

 

snip...

You seem to be arguing as if this is a black & white situation when it clearly isn't. Not a single one of my players would say I was screwing them and I highly doubt any of Markdocs would either. Yourself and your players likely would, but that's because you are playing a different style of campaign.

 

actually you are correct on several counts.

 

i did cite your quote out of context - to put CONTEXT first and foremost in the spotlight.

 

the context of the game sets the "reasonable" and thwe "strange"

 

note the post above where someone points out that if the town isn't safe enough to leave your stuff you should be wearing it. that doesn't speak of magic at all, merely how safe an area you are in, which seems to raise even in non-magic setting the notion of the "common sense" of leaving guard while you go about town.

 

so, if the town isn't safe enough to leave stuff alone in hotel room with you the owner hiring or providing on site security, why would i as a reasonable person think it safe to walk around myself without protection? are the streets somehow safer than the inns?

 

but the next comment is very much on point.

 

see i responded because it seemed the "shouldnt be able to walk around in plate and sword " crowd was expressing this as a black and white issue.

 

the references to "m16 on main street" or how "common sense" this wa isn't at all one iota putting forth a warm fluffy shade of gray everyvody is right nobody is wrong vibe, is it?

 

it comes across as if the players wanting to walk around in plate aren't playing smart or want - what was the line - to do whatever they want?

 

do whatever they want...

its just common sense...

expecting to walk down mainstreet with m16...

beyonf suspension of disbelief...

 

none of these phrasings and others like them are leaving me with this warm fuzzy "not a case of black and white"

 

as for me ad my players and what we like, normally we dont make our games focus on equipment that much over characters so little to no time is spent on the more traditional inventory management side of frpgs. so spending time having characters get into and out of armor and tracking what weapons they are carrying right now as opposed to later is rarely plot elements we worry over. the idea os spending valable face to face time going into detail over whether your armor is on or you have your secondary leathers and whether you have your dagger or your sword and the corresponding time spent on the player trying to save time by developing "adventure inventory" and "town inventory" lists is just not what we are at the table for.

 

we have done it in the past but the bookkeeping seemed to not add to the story or enjoyment.

 

we dont tend to run low to no magic fantas more along the lines of black company or dread empire or the series with chess title whose name escapes me or even the classic myths. we also tend to focus on action oriented games for fantasy as opposed to courtly intrigue, so not a lot of time is spent in "shopping" and so forth.

 

not sure myself if the myth of perseus or achilles would have been better if it spent time on what he wore in the cities as opposed to when out and getting into trouble.

 

so its less, in spite of protestations to the contrary, "they want to walk around town carrying m16" than its "we dont want to waste our valuable ftf gaming time doing silly inventory crap so the gm can throw "unarmed city stuff at us" when thats really not going to be part of the story we came to play in?

 

yeah yeah people can protest all they want that the gm isn't going to "screw" them and he wont be taking dvantage by throwing stuff at them while unprotected or wont be stealing their stuff etc...

 

but if ou aren't gonna make it play a role in the scenes anyway, why spend game time working with it at all?

 

 

 

.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: battle Wear vs. Town Wear

 

This is worth saying again.

A point of disconnect might be the different settings that people run in. In a low-magic setting which is substantially similar to the historical past' date=' with mages and monsters being too rare to make much difference in society, then sure, armed guys could be cause for alarm, and it makes sense to deal with that. In a setting where mages that can flambe people are found in most towns, and monsters are a major thing to worry about, then people with swords are the least of your problems ... at least you can [i']see[/i] their weapons.

 

I tend to prefer the lower magic settings, and even when I run D&D, I tend to do it with the idea that all the weirdness going on is the exception rather than the rule, and the PCs are just fated to be there when it happens. Hence, I prefer the idea that you don't tool around town in a heavy sweatbox.

 

On the other hand, whenever I do decide to go with a high magic setting, the PCs are doing such outrageous feats of derring-do that they are known wherever they go as saviors of the kingdom. Hence, no one thinks anything wrong (and probably count themselves lucky) when they see them in their full armored, beweaponed glory.

 

In either case, if the players thought they needed to set a guard on their stuff, basically sidelining one of themselves for the night, I would make sure that anything particularly interesting that session would happen in the inn rather than out in the town.

[Ice9]

Re: battle Wear vs. Town Wear

 

I've never thought of mages as thin. I've always thought of them as fat. A bit like IT professionals. Spending all their time sitting around and with a job that pays so well it tends to lead to indulgence. The wizards of Discworld are ideal examples.

Adventuring mages, would be in fairly good shape, I'd think. Maybe not as buff as the warriors, but certainly fit and at least average strength.

Sedentary ones - Discworld style fat mages are certainly possible. But not guaranteed; the way magic works in many settings, you can burn through all your spells fairly quickly, and there's often a limit to how much research you can do each day, so there's your exercise time right there.

Skinny mages would be the struggling students, spending every penny on components and training. Or the obsessed ones, forgetting to sleep or eat while in pursuit of their new ritual.

[tesuji]

Re: battle Wear vs. Town Wear

 

I think that another aspect of this conversation is the assumption that because "we" are making the players stow their gear that "we" are going to automatically "screw them over" whether that is attacking them with overwhelming force while they're "naked" or steal their lewtz.

 

In all honesty that is a terribly false assumption. In my 30 years of GMing, I have only once actually stolen anything from a PC and that was because the item was a MacGuffin as it was.

 

actually the assumption i a making is much simpler.

 

if the gm is making this an element that FTF game time is spent on as in do we hire a guard or leave someone here to watch our stuff or amking the players adjust inventory in game to show different "looks" for "city stuff" than for "adventuring stuff" then that same exact gm IS ABSOLUTELY going to make it play a role, likely a significant one. now where you came up with "overwhelming force" as a premise i dont know.

 

if the gm doesn't make it play a role, a noticeable one or maybe a significant one, then he is screwing the players by making them waste valuable ftf game time or prep time or both on inventory management issues that are not going to play a role.

 

in my games this rarely occurs, hasnt in a long time. we dont waste time on it.

 

in similar vein, if the plots lead them to need to take a boat across the straits, then unless they are going to have an eventful boyage, one wherestuff happens, we dont bother much if at all with the "meet the captain, meet the crew, day to day on boat roll for seasickness

' stuff.

 

if you want your game to spotlight these things, thats great.

 

but movies and stories have cut scenes for a purpose... to keep the focus on the important and fun stuff. we prefer those pacings, especially since as we get older gaming sessions shorten.

[tesuji]

Re: battle Wear vs. Town Wear

 

This is worth saying again.

 

 

I tend to prefer the lower magic settings, and even when I run D&D, I tend to do it with the idea that all the weirdness going on is the exception rather than the rule, and the PCs are just fated to be there when it happens. Hence, I prefer the idea that you don't tool around town in a heavy sweatbox.

 

On the other hand, whenever I do decide to go with a high magic setting, the PCs are doing such outrageous feats of derring-do that they are known wherever they go as saviors of the kingdom. Hence, no one thinks anything wrong (and probably count themselves lucky) when they see them in their full armored, beweaponed glory.

 

In either case, if the players thought they needed to set a guard on their stuff, basically sidelining one of themselves for the night, I would make sure that anything particularly interesting that session would happen in the inn rather than out in the town.

 

yes but if someone walking thru a fantasy street and not causing an uproarexplodes suspension of disbelief all on its own, i shudder to nthink what "every time we leave a pc guard stuff happens" will do the SoD.

 

we handle it more simply... i as gm dont ask the players to sweat over town inventory vs adventure inventory and i dont make those items an important or relevent part of the story. the whole "did you take off your armor or not" is simply not an issue we waste/spend time on. nor is "do we leave our stuff"

 

i dont blind the computer guy and set him into a computer programming challeng scenaria combat challenge.

 

 

i dont hobble the speedster and put him in a race challenge.

i dont force the player character into incompetence and then challenge them in that area.

 

nor do i strip the weapons guy of his weapons and then throw him into a combat challenge

 

side note - unless he pays me to do so by taking complications or lims that save him points for just that outcome - in which case he has told me "make this a part of the story".

[Nolgroth]

Re: battle Wear vs. Town Wear

 

i dont blind the computer guy and set him into a computer programming challeng scenaria combat challenge.

i dont hobble the speedster and put him in a race challenge.

i dont force the player character into incompetence and then challenge them in that area.

nor do i strip the weapons guy of his weapons and then throw him into a combat challenge

Why not? The fish out of water that overcomes the adversity is a classic trope of fiction. The only reason it would not translate well into role-playing is because of the prevailing attitude that the GM should never violate the character concept. There are ways to do this that add story tension without overtaxing the limited character. The people he is up against might be less competent to begin with. I might use Heroic Action Points to allow for bonuses on the one "critical" test. The other characters might have to lend a hand in some way.

 

I (temporarily) blind the computer guy, but give him some sort of voice recognition software to assist him in the programming. Plus, his opponent(s) is/are less skilled than him to begin with, so the playing field is leveled. Not only do I create tension for the one player, I can set up a whole side quest for the other characters to find some method to restore the computer guys's sight.

 

The speedster one is one that I do not grok anyway. Running a race is a difficult task for me to do well or convincingly. So no counter there from me.

 

A heavily armored warrior might be ambushed by a few thugs in an alley. Lucky for him, they aren't too tough despite the wicked looking knives they carry. With his perfectly legal walking stick, he manages to beat the snot out of them and gain a valuable lead in the investigation the party.

 

The trick is to NOT overdo it. Sporadically challenging the characters outside of their element is fun. Constantly removing their advantage is annoying. It should never be done against an archenemy or somebody as or more powerful than they. Rewarding the character (and thus the player) with something extra like a clue or MacGuffin for the next game or even a side quest that leads to some neat treasure is always a nice way to say thank you to the player for allowing you to use him and his character for exploring new territory.

[Curufea]

Re: battle Wear vs. Town Wear

 

Have to rep you for that Nolgroth - after all you are talking about situations that provide CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT.

Tesuji seems to be encouraging character de-evolution. Turning possibly good character concepts with background and histories into boring two dimensional stereotypes.

[mayapuppies]

Re: battle Wear vs. Town Wear

 

Yeah, Tesuji, you and I run very different campaigns. You mention the classic greek myths and your preference for action over minutia and the PC's are simply assumed to be the heroes. I, on the other hand, run something completely different.

 

My game worlds are very dark, oh sure there are plenty of spots of 'goodness' in the world, starting with the PC's. There are individuals and parts of organizations that are geared towards the well-being of others, but, it is a primarily self-serving environment, with far more than its fair share of predators. To the average peasant, the nobles own you and the bandits prey on you. The spirits are trying to kill you or eat you or take you away to who knows where and only the priests or druids can save you from them, there are bloodsucking mages traveling the roads and mages who work evil magiks and steal your daughters for experiments. Most knights are nothing more than thugs and enforcers for the nobility. As the tag line on the back of the book says:

 

This is the rise of evil.

This is your chance to join that fight.

 

The PC's are the good guys, it is up to them to bring back light to the land, but the naive PC will be taken advantage of at nearly every turn and the idealistic PC will be sorely tested. But it is the conquest of those tests that make heroes, not the gleaming white stallion, not the pixie dust and fairy wings and elfin heritage, not the simple belief that "I'm a PC, therefore I am automatically a hero", it is climbing through the muck and mire of civilization and the predations within, and coming out the other end, still standing tall and carrying the lives of others in your hands.

 

So yeah, that's how I see my games...

 

My games are not better or worse than your games and vice versa, we simply have a very different style and that difference is what fuels my decisions when running a game. I've had many players bow out of my games once they realize exactly what I run and I've had others hound me to run more games.

 

In my games the cultures and peoples and their environments will be deep, intricate, several shades of gray and follow an in-game logic founded on 30 years of gaming and hobbyist level studying of real world cultures. I am not fond of the epic journey as game, I leave that to the novelists and Hollywood, I'm here for a gritty, in the muck, long term character builder.

 

Many people do not like that kind of game. Cool. I have no desire to run a game other than this. So I politely inform them that they should not ask me to GM. I don't adhere to the strange mantra that a GM should change his style to accommodate the players, I believe that Players and GM's of similar persuasion should play together.

 

To bring this around on topic, wearing armor and weapons openly (in my world) is a sign to others that you are about to get into trouble, whether because you're going to start it or you expect it to come looking for you. People don't like having trouble around them so they take steps to remove it.

[Alibear]

Re: battle Wear vs. Town Wear

 

Another thing is that magic is... well magical and rare. Magical items, magical creatures and magic users in my game setting are quite rare. The stuff of legend, tales and stories gossip and debate. Nobody is really sure how it works or why.

 

Having said that as my PCs are all magicians (of one stripe or another) themselves what magic is about they seem to get involved with. But that is not the norm for the locals. Many times if they enter a village they will be the first magicians to have entered in living memory.

[mayapuppies]

Re: battle Wear vs. Town Wear

 

Another thing is that magic is... well magical and rare. Magical items, magical creatures and magic users in my game setting are quite rare. The stuff of legend, tales and stories gossip and debate. Nobody is really sure how it works or why.

 

But that is not the norm for the locals. Many times if they enter a village they will be the first magicians to have entered in living memory.

Yup, this is the same in my games.

[Lezentauw]

Re: battle Wear vs. Town Wear

 

Another thing is that magic is... well magical and rare. Magical items, magical creatures and magic users in my game setting are quite rare. The stuff of legend, tales and stories gossip and debate. Nobody is really sure how it works or why.

 

Having said that as my PCs are all magicians (of one stripe or another) themselves what magic is about they seem to get involved with. But that is not the norm for the locals. Many times if they enter a village they will be the first magicians to have entered in living memory.

 

I remember playing D&D, and as long as the question Why was not asked, things were good. But, once you started to ask questions, things started to break down for us.

 

If mages in an adventuring group rarely made a magical item, then who would make all of those magical items? If you could make a +3 just as easy as a +1 item, why make that +1 item? Why would court mages not come up forms of defense for their liege lord? Why would not a town be warded from fires? Why would there not be more utility form of magic and magic items? Ever see a couple dozen mages & a magical creature go off on a town? Not a pretty sight. If magic can destroy a castle so easily, then why where they built?

 

Either you have to amp up the magic, and start providing counter forms of magic. Or, you have to bring the level of magic down. More is not necessarily better, especially when it seems to cause more questions to be asked. It is far easier to bring the level of magic down, which then brings the game closer to our history, and therefore is easier to understand...

[Lezentauw]

Re: battle Wear vs. Town Wear

 

Have to rep you for that Nolgroth - after all you are talking about situations that provide CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT.

Tesuji seems to be encouraging character de-evolution. Turning possibly good character concepts with background and histories into boring two dimensional stereotypes.

 

I agree with Curufea...

 

Besides, if the pc does not have his armor, then more times than not his opponents will not either... What might of been a cake walk before, would actually become a challenge...