Impact of Figured Characteristics

[lemming]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

Kay' date=' But he's using 5th template for both Just trying to move stuff into the newer versionn of the application[/quote']

 

Hmm. Don't know then since I didn't use HD for a few years until the 6 version and since I'm trying 6 out, haven't checked to see how my first files look like.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

This guy fixes pretty much all computers of any problem in the whole tax assessment of section of Fairfax county which is over a hundred machines but HERO designer constantly confounds him.

 

I've done it*. It wasn't trivial, but it was straightforward (if tedious). You should use a text editor that can handle XML, which will help keep track of the tags.

 

*OK, I've done something much like it. During the 6e design discussions, I created a custom template that used an alternate method for creating figured characteristics.

[Jhamin]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

I tend to run Heroic and low powered Superheroic (really' date=' very powerful Heroic) games mostly. I like the interaction between Dex and CV. It makes sense to me. I understand that from a toolkit approach, decoupling figured characteristics from the primary characteristics makes sense, but for some reason it just doesn't sit very well with me.[/quote']

 

I was skeptical right up until my group made characters for Lucha Libre Hero. The fact that all stats are decoupled let us balance the combat effectiveness of a character with Str, Dex, OCV and DCV instead of just Str and Dex. We had one really strong Luchadore with a good OCV & Terrible DCV, another that had campaign average OCV/DCV but maxed out Dex to the campaign limits. He is fast and his acrobatics skills are great but he isn't magically a better fighter than the guy whose concept is "skill over talent" and bought a great ocv/dcv but bad Dex.

 

Having more options is never a bad thing. I have yet to find a situation where 6th gives me fewer options than 5th did. Even if the new choices are sometimes unexpected and go against what used to be "the Hero Way".

[BeZurKur]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

Having more options is never a bad thing. I have yet to find a situation where 6th gives me fewer options than 5th did. Even if the new choices are sometimes unexpected and go against what used to be "the Hero Way".

Yeah, but for me, decoupling Dex from CV makes CSL and Lighting Reflexes (there may be others) non-options. Yeah, we still have them, but really... why bother? There are a lot of fine tune adjustments in levels (i.e. options) that are now overlooked. However, I do like the new costs. A 23 Dex with CVs bought up to 8s cost 76 points, a considerable increase over 5e. Those CSL are really looking tempting now. The energy projector who relies on his force field for defense with 5 attack powers in MP is better off with a lower Dex and making up the difference in CSLs. Yeah, he's easier to hit, but high DCVs are the martial artist's gig. I see keeping CV tied to Dex as more options because it opens up all the possibilities of CSL and lighting reflexes, which have largely been ignored throughout all the editions. Now, there have been some convincing arguments through this thread for the fine control between OCV and DCV, and I mostly agree with them. In those cases I like the option to fine tune, but only in those exceptions.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

Yeah' date=' but for me, decoupling Dex from CV makes CSL and Lighting Reflexes (there may be others) non-options. Yeah, we still have them, but really... why bother? There are a lot of fine tune adjustments in levels (i.e. options) that are now overlooked. However, I do like the new costs. A 23 Dex with CVs bought up to 8s cost 76 points, a considerable increase over 5e. Those CSL are really looking tempting now. The energy projector who relies on his force field for defense with 5 attack powers in MP is better off with a lower Dex and making up the difference in CSLs. Yeah, he's easier to hit, but high DCVs are the martial artist's gig. [b']I see keeping CV tied to Dex as more options because it opens up all the possibilities of CSL and lighting reflexes, which have largely been ignored throughout all the editions. [/b]Now, there have been some convincing arguments through this thread for the fine control between OCV and DCV, and I mostly agree with them. In those cases I like the option to fine tune, but only in those exceptions.

 

Emphasis added. Why have they been ignored? Because DEX was a great deal. Pay 45 points, and get 5 OCV, 5 DCV, 15 Lightning Reflexes, 1.5 Speed and +3 to all DEX rolls. So what's the answer, if not decoupling? Bump the price of DEX to 5 or 6 points? At 5 points, that's 75 for +15 DEX. 15 goes to Speed, so that leaves 60. 25 for OCV and 25 for DCV leaves 10 to pay for +3 DEX rolls (18 points to add to only one at a time) and +15 Lightning Reflexes (15 points). Still 23 points light. Looks like DEX needs to cost 6 or 7 each. I guess we'd see a lot less 23 DEX Supers (for 91 points) or 20 DEX (70 points) Heroic characters anyway.

Unless, of course, some of those components are overpriced. I think Lightning Reflexes are overpriced, Going first is only really major in games where one shot devestation is common, and most Hero games in my experience are set up so the typical character must be hit three or more times to be KO'd. And even in such games, if you take your shot at DEX + LR = 75, my 8 DEX, no LR character can still abort to Dodge (or whatever defensive action he chooses). If he sank some of the points saved into SPD, he'll probably still get his next move before you do.

 

Skill levels are too expensive if one has complementary skills, or even skills likely to be used in the same phase independently.

 

And that leaves DEX under the current model overpriced (or, alternatively, INT and PRE, which also give a bonus to a large array of skills and provide an ancillary benefit, underpriced).

 

BTW, the difference between the old cost of 23 DEX (39 less 13 point speed discount = 26) and a 23 DEX, 8 OCV and 8 DCV (76 points) is the 50 point increase to the starting Supers point base. A Heroic character can't quite pay the spread for a 17 DEX (21 - 7 = 14 before; now 15 + 15 + 14 = 44) with his extra 25 points.

[BeZurKur]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

(Interesting point on the increase of points available, genre, and relationship to Dex/CVs. FWIW, I'm grateful to the posts in this thread for highlighting some design choices and game options. As a result, my perspective on this has shifted since the threads's inception.)

 

I like the decoupling, providing you buy them up to figureds, because you see the points where they go as they're being spent. If it's not to your liking, there are probably other cheaper ways to get what you want as long as you don't mind making compromises in areas that probably don't matter as much. Also, I'm convinced that Int and Pre should be worth 2 points apiece.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

strength is still king of the statts

[JamesG]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

I'm disappointed that the disconnection of certain abilities has not lead to a rethinking of the character standards. There is no longer any reason' date=' for example, that the starting point for Supers' DEX needs to be 20+, yet the samle characters keep that old 20 - 23 baseline, rather than gravitating back to more "human norm" levels for those characters where agility is not part of their schtick.[/quote']

 

I could not be in more agreement with this. It is the first thing I thought when the sample from 6e Champions with the Brick "gallery" was posted. Why the heck was the basic Brick sporting an 18 DEX and the brutish Brick a 15? Those values should be 10 and 8, or maybe less (IMO of course). To my mind one of greatest advantages of decoupling Figured characteristics would be the reining in of Stat inflation, particularly Dex inflation. But it looks like they missed the boat on that one, big time.

 

Unfortunately' date=' such a change would markedly reduce the compatability of older editions' support material, which could have a backlash that gamers just stick to the old material and ignore the new material (rather than the desired result that they buy all the new material to bring their old favorites up to the new standard).[/quote']

 

Hmmm, for me at least it actually has the opposite effect. I'm probably less likely to buy the new material if they are not taking full advantage of the potential changes the rules reboot affords.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

reasons to have high dexterity

 

in the Advanced Players guild,

acrobatics suggest bouncing of a telephone wire for a roll at -6

 

at 14- less roll in acrobatics is 90% what happens when the character fails an acrobatics roll?

a stealth roll is often contested by a perceptions roll

a thief with slight of hand does not want to fail either

 

yes I know what a level is

[The Main Man]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

Yeah' date=' but for me, decoupling Dex from CV makes CSL and Lighting Reflexes (there may be others) non-options. Yeah, we still have them, but really... why bother? There are a lot of fine tune adjustments in levels (i.e. options) that are now overlooked. However, I do like the new costs. A 23 Dex with CVs bought up to 8s cost 76 points, a considerable increase over 5e. Those CSL are really looking tempting now. The energy projector who relies on his force field for defense with 5 attack powers in MP is better off with a lower Dex and making up the difference in CSLs. Yeah, he's easier to hit, but high DCVs are the martial artist's gig. I see keeping CV tied to Dex as more options because it opens up all the possibilities of CSL and lighting reflexes, which have largely been ignored throughout all the editions. Now, there have been some convincing arguments through this thread for the fine control between OCV and DCV, and I mostly agree with them. In those cases I like the option to fine tune, but only in those exceptions.[/quote']

 

CSL's are still useful because you cannot Drain them (of course you cannot Absorb to, Aid, nor Heal them either, but still...), you cannot reallocate OCV/DCV, nor can you combine two of them to add +1 Damage Class.

 

CSL's and Lightning Reflexes can be more precise and thusly be cheaper in the long run (depending on the character concept) than just buying straight up OCV/DCV and/or DEX.

 

That their functions are overlooked is the fault of the player, not the system.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

I think the variability of DCV and OCV in levels is broken due to the rather short range of CV differences due to the 3d6 curve to hit

 

for example, a character with 8 levels will be nearly impossible to hit if all those levels are placed in DCV

[Rapier]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

I think the variability of DCV and OCV in levels is broken due to the rather short range of CV differences due to the 3d6 curve to hit

 

for example, a character with 8 levels will be nearly impossible to hit if all those levels are placed in DCV

 

I can't disagree more. In a campaign where one character has 8 CSLs at his disposal, it is assumed that his opponents will be similarly equipped (with 8 CSLs they can drop into OCV). If you put your 8 levels into DCV and I put my 8 levels into OCV, guess what? Yep, roll an 11 or less and I still hit.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

Aiy

combat would be determined by the paper scissors rocks of level allocations

 

you are correct

The case I presented was when one player comes in with levels and the rest just had a set CV

[The Main Man]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

And in the opposite of an earlier point I made, the fact that you can always adjust your OCV or DCV provides interesting new avenues.

[The Main Man]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

You also have to assign CSL's, so if your opponent has a higher DEX than you, you may have to rely on your normal OCV and DCV now.

 

I like the fact that there is no right or wrong answer in that dynamic because it means more options.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

I think the variability of DCV and OCV in levels is broken due to the rather short range of CV differences due to the 3d6 curve to hit

 

for example, a character with 8 levels will be nearly impossible to hit if all those levels are placed in DCV

 

That guy should be almost impossible to hit. He's the equivalent to a 3rd or 4th degree Black Belt in his chosen form of combat. Unless his opponent is similarly skilled, anyone facing this guy would be seriously outmatched.

 

I love that aspect of Combat Skill Levels.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

I think the variability of DCV and OCV in levels is broken due to the rather short range of CV differences due to the 3d6 curve to hit

 

for example, a character with 8 levels will be nearly impossible to hit if all those levels are placed in DCV

 

 

I think it simulates the cinematic style of combat pretty darn well myself. That guy with 8 levels is pretty high up the badass zone and is probably the local equivalent of jet Li , batman, etc.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

You also have to assign CSL's' date=' so if your opponent has a higher DEX than you, you may have to rely on your normal OCV and DCV now.[/quote']

 

Or Abort to Dodge and reallocate your levels to DCV. [Or abort to Block with all levels to OCV so you can get the first move in the next phase, asusming you have equal SPD, forcing your opponent to abort to reallocate his own levels.]

[The Main Man]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

But as you've just demonstrated, CSL's make combat less static and thusly less certain because they increase tactical variability.

 

Not that I had not already thought of Defensive reallocation of CSL's.

 

And a bit OT but I don't use Roll With Punch nearly enough...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

One of the longstanding problems with pricing skill levels was the discrepancy with Heroic and Superheroic games. Buying skill levels (combat or otherwise) made a lot more sense when you had hit NCM in a Heroic game, which lead to a choice betwen skill levels being overpriced if you weren't hitting NCM's (including most Supers games) or far too cheap if you were.

 

With 6e eliminating NCM as a core rule, it would seem reasonable to have repriced skill levels based on limited characteristics, which should have lead to a reduced cost for non-combat skill levels, at least in my view. CSL's have aspects of a Multipower that make them harder to price. Consider, however, buying 6 Martial Arts skill levels against buying a Multipower of +6 OCV (30 AP), +6 DCV (30 AP) and +7 Martial Arts Damage Classes (28 AP). This costs 45 points (30 pool + 6 per flexible slot), can enhance CV regardless of whether the character is using martial arts and can enhance DC's by a lot more than 6 skill levels with Martial Arts. Those would cost what, 5 points per, so 30 points for 6? Given that, the 5 point skill levels are a reasonable purchase. What about 8 point "all HTH" skill levels? I guess you could have a MP of +6 OCV, +6 DCV and +30 STR, only for damage. Still about 45 points, and more versatile than 6 skill levels in HTH combat.

 

Other types of skill levels could be harder to build (enhancing a Swiss Army Multipower of ranged attacks, for example, would require a lot of MP slots). Ultimately, I suppose a Cosmic VPP limited to OCV, DCV and enhancing existing attacks would work.

 

To the extent I have a point at all, I suppose it's that skill levels' pricing could use another look.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

I think combat still levels can be reduced to buying OCV or DCV with limitations

if I character wants either OCV or DCV , they can buy both and use the lock out limitation

 

oh wait that doesn't account for damage classes

[BeZurKur]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

Hugh, what if Dex and CV were not decoupled? Looking at it from a characteristic and skill roll angle, it would cost 32 points for a 14- and only 24 points to achieve the same with Skill Levels (+3 to Agility Skills and +3 to Dex Rolls). That certainly supports your theory that Dex is overpriced, but if we keep Dex tied to CVs doesn't that close the gab between skill levels and straight char buys? Consider the theoretical build of your multipower above versus the CSL build and throw in the adjustment for a 14- roll as well. My numbers came out to be 75 points for the MP version and 72 points through SLs. Throw in some Lighting Reflexes and the two are pretty comparable.

 

My point is that thrown all together, there is little difference between buying skill levels and straight characteristic buys, but that seems to be true as long as Dex is still tied to CVs. The advantage to CSLs and SLs is not a point break, but that you can pick what you want. For the whole package, the char approach still delivers more for less points overall.

 

Whoa, wait a minute... Int and Pre aren't attached to any CV. Could that be why they're still at one point? If so, then Dex is overpriced and the CVs underpriced (like you said before). Although the price for Dex and CVs combined seems to be about right.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

Ignoring the fact that DEX is not appropriately priced compared to INT and PRE (and I am not confident which side is mispriced), let's look at INT skill levels and PRE skill levels.

 

For 5 points, I can buy +5 INT, so +1 with every INT roll, including PER, straight rolls and every INT skill (including skills used in the same phase, perhaps as complementary skills). Or, for 4 points, I can buy +1 to any one INT skill at a time. That extra point spent to just buy up INT seems a pretty small cost.

 

For 5 points, I can buy +5 PRE, so +1 with every PRE roll, including straight rolls and every PRE skill (including skills used in the same phase, perhaps as complementary skills), and I get +1d6 PRE attack and +5 to resist PRE attacks.. Or, for 4 points, I can buy +1 to any one PRE skill at a time. That extra point spent to just buy up PRE seems to get an awful lot of benefits. I doubt I'd allow a player to buy +5d6 PRE attacks alone for 5 points.

 

I find the fact that DEX no longer links to CV at all should justify a price break, but none was provided. DEX has always cost 2 points - the other point when DEX was set at 3 was offset by the Speed it granted, so DEX really only cost 2. That was very cheap to bump OCV, DCV, combat order and DEX rolls. But it's very expensive, IMO, for just combat order and DEX rolls. I'd rather move later and have +1 SPD, or +2 DC's, or +5 PE and ED, or +20 STUN instead.

[dmjalund]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

I have come to the opinion that all the stats which are bases of Skill, and have other uses, should be 2 pts.

 

OTOH if we do go back to Figured Characteristics, we should still be allowed the ability to Buy & Sell OCV and DCV.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

I have come to the opinion that all the stats which are bases of Skill' date=' and have other uses, should be 2 pts.[/quote']

 

This would fix the micro problem that INT and PRE are clearly too cheap compared to DEX. But how does the value of +5 INT, PRE or DEX compare to +1 SPD, or +2 DC's, or +5 PE and ED, or +20 STUN, for the same 10 point (proposed) cost? I think the better answer may be to start at the bottom. What should bonuses to skill rolls cost? Presently, raising one skill roll by +1 costs 2 points. Is that a fair price? Should it be 1 point? Next step - what should +1 to any one skill roll in a small category cost? Clearly, it should cost more than +1 to a single skill. Then, what should +1 to any one skill roll in a broad group at a time cost? Establishing that, what should +1 to all skills (and let's include the raw characteristic roll as well) based on a single characteristic cost - now you can use multiple skills at the same time/in the same phase. Now let's price the ancillary benefits of each of the characteristics - what is Lightning Reflexes really worth (one attack; group; all attacks)? What is +1d6 PRE attack worth? +5 PRE defense? +1 PER rolls? Each of these can be compared against other benchmarks - what else could be acquired for the same point cost?

 

Once we establish the price of the components, and we know what we want the characteristic itself to grant, we can price the characteristic itself to have a similar cost, with perhaps a small "package discount".

 

So, if we accept OCV and DCV are worth 5 each, +1 with all DEX rolls at once is worth 5 and +5 combat order with all attacks is worth 5 points, and we want to restore the old Figured system (and keep the ability to buy OCV and DCV up or down independently), what should DEX cost? Well, +15 DEX gave us +5 OCV (25), +5 DCV (25), +3 DEX rolls (15), +15 combat order (15) and +1.5 Speed (15). That's a total of 95 points. Divide that by 15, and +1 DEX must be worth somewhere on the order of 6 points (a 5.26% discount doesn't seem like the end of the world). If DEX granting those benefits is not worth 6 points, then we must have overpriced some of the benefits. Which ones are overpriced?

 

OTOH if we do go back to Figured Characteristics' date=' we should still be allowed the ability to Buy & Sell OCV and DCV.[/quote']

 

Agree 100%. OCV and DCV should be figured characteristics in that model, not just derived from DEX. That was my argument on the 6e Boards in discussing decoupling - that OCV and DCV were as much "figured" as PD, ED or REC - we just didn't show them as characteristics and price them independently, which made them less obvious.