Impact of Figured Characteristics

[BeZurKur]

I like figured characteristics. It's not a deal breaker -- and overall I like the tweaks 6e made -- but the rational of figured characteristics simply clicks in my head. So, I'm thinking of going back to those but otherwise using 6e. Here are my questions:

 

• Aside from CSLs (which would go back to a 5e cost), is there anything else that needs adjusting?
  
• Can Hero Designer be easily adjusted to handle the change? (Easily being someone without programming knowledge.)

If is is too hard, I'll probably stick with 6e as written.

[Daltwisney]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

Aside from CSLs (which would go back to a 5e cost)' date=' is there anything else that needs adjusting?[/quote']

I cannot think of anything off the top of my head that Characteristic Costs/Figured Characteristics would affect (STR, PD and ED are still 1 point, and are usually the only stats with a Naked Advantage applied).

 

Can Hero Designer be easily adjusted to handle the change? (Easily being someone without programming knowledge.)

Essentially the 6E template for HD removes and replaces the Characteristic definitions from 5E. You would need to customize it to reverse those changes.

I think it should just be a matter for a simple extension template, but I'm not sure how far the ramifications of those changes would reach.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

You'd be better off using the 5E template and using Custom Power, etc., for anything from 6E that you want to bring in. IMO, of course.

[Tasha]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

I like figured characteristics. It's not a deal breaker -- and overall I like the tweaks 6e made -- but the rational of figured characteristics simply clicks in my head. So, I'm thinking of going back to those but otherwise using 6e. Here are my questions:

 

• Aside from CSLs (which would go back to a 5e cost), is there anything else that needs adjusting?
  
• Can Hero Designer be easily adjusted to handle the change? (Easily being someone without programming knowledge.)
  

If is is too hard, I'll probably stick with 6e as written.

 

Funny thing is that I like the idea of Figured Characteristics. The idea that you get tougher as you get stronger or faster as your reflexes improve it powerful.

 

I don't think that HD can be changed in any easy way to bring them back to the 6e template.

 

Once I started to run a game where players didn't have Figured Characteristics in them, I realized that the game system was dictating to my players how they needed to build characters. Having High Strength/High Dex characters is VERY cost effective under 5e rules. Under 6e my players just set their stats (Primary/Secondary) to the value they needed to both be true to concept and to live up to campaign guidelines. It means that the Players and the GM decide what the stat values and not the Players/GM and game system.

 

YMMV. Good luck with fooling with HD,

 

Tasha

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

I like figured characteristics. It's not a deal breaker -- and overall I like the tweaks 6e made -- but the rational of figured characteristics simply clicks in my head. So' date=' I'm thinking of going back to those but otherwise using 6e. [/quote']

 

If you are going to go back to figured then you might want to think about what the ratios are. The figured characteristics were set to reflect humans gaining superpowers and the costs reflect that bias. You might want to have a few different sets of figureds for different things (vehicles being one of them, robots another, in a fantasy settings there may be a different bias required to get the right balance for each race).

 

I think that was one of the main arguments in favour of dropping figureds - they promote only one style of character building...

 

 

Doc

[Daltwisney]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

Aside from CSLs (which would go back to a 5e cost), is there anything else that needs adjusting?

 

The character point levels in 6E were also increased to account for characters having to purchase all Characteristics from a base value, with Figured Characteristics, you might want to scale back the points available to the 5E levels.

[BeZurKur]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

So far, the changes -- within the mechanics -- seem easy enough: lower overall character points and one skill adjustment. The Hero Designer adjustment appears harder. Up to this point, I've used HD as is. I'll be looking into the documentation and see what I can put together. If it is too much work for the return, I'll probably follow Chris' suggestion of a 5e template plus custom powers.

 

Doc Democracy's observation that the ratios were designed to emulate one type of genre is interesting. Although I'm not sure if those came first. My take is that the ratios were designed for play balance -- whether they were successful or not is another matter -- and a world genre norm emerged from that. But that's all chicken-n-egg stuff. That a standard emerged, regardless of what came first, is undeniable.

 

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. If anything else comes to mind, please post it as well. This is an experiment, so I'll gladly accept any thoughts on the matter.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

Doc Democracy's observation that the ratios were designed to emulate one type of genre is interesting. Although I'm not sure if those came first. My take is that the ratios were designed for play balance -- whether they were successful or not is another matter -- and a world genre norm emerged from that. But that's all chicken-n-egg stuff. That a standard emerged' date=' regardless of what came first, is undeniable. [/quote']

 

Look for previous threads on the hidden template in HERO.

 

The history of the game shows in relics like the figured characteristics. Most superheroes were super-powered humans. You can see it also in the fact of what characters are presumed to have - such as a need to breathe air and the other things that are in every base character.

 

 

Doc

[Rapier]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

I will admit that I'm at a bit of a loss about figureds.

 

In 6E if I have a character with a high DEX and want him to have high OCV/DCV I can simply buy them up to the appropriate level. There is nothing stopping me from doing so. In fact, it would make a great deal of sense in most cases to keep a, lets call it a dotted line link, between some characteristics. High DEX leads towards a higher OCV/DCV. Higher CON leads towards more STUN. But I think it's nice to not HAVE to. I most particularly like this with DCV. I can now have a HUUUUGE character that has a high DEX and OCV, but due to his size has a lower DCV. It's very easy to manage and handle.

 

The one and only difference I can see between figured and non-figureds is the cost. So it might cost you a little more to get the same thing...that is partly (IMO) why the points went up a bit with 6E.

 

I just can't help but think this is much ado about nothing.

[BeZurKur]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

Thanks for the heads-up, Doc. I'll look for those hidden templates.

 

@Rapier, I think I get why people like not having figureds. For some, however, it may be harder to grasp. Last week I was making a character with a friend who never played Hero. When it came to the "Figureds" and the CVs, he was at a loss. Without a point of reference of what his character should have, he was in a free-fall. The only way I got him to get it was by defaulting to the old way of handling them. Once he got his bearing, it was easy for him to work it out from there. It's not just him either; I find myself still doing the math to get me in the ballpark. You call it the dotted line link, but that only works for people like us who have that connection to the previous editions. He was able to wrap his head around the benchmarks for the prime characteristics, but the abstract mechanical ones (i.e. figureds) were more confusing. For those characters that go against the norm, like your agile giant, CSLs and SLs handle those occasional exceptions. In fact, I'm not sure CSLs are even worth it now that you can directly purchase CVs; the jury is still out on that one. I'm not saying Figureds are best for everyone, but if I find myself still crunching the numbers -- that HD used to do for me -- then it clearly is better for me. YMMV.

[Tasha]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

Thanks for the heads-up, Doc. I'll look for those hidden templates.

 

@Rapier, I think I get why people like not having figureds. For some, however, it may be harder to grasp. Last week I was making a character with a friend who never played Hero. When it came to the "Figureds" and the CVs, he was at a loss. Without a point of reference of what his character should have, he was in a free-fall. The only way I got him to get it was by defaulting to the old way of handling them. Once he got his bearing, it was easy for him to work it out from there. It's not just him either; I find myself still doing the math to get me in the ballpark. You call it the dotted line link, but that only works for people like us who have that connection to the previous editions. He was able to wrap his head around the benchmarks for the prime characteristics, but the abstract mechanical ones (i.e. figureds) were more confusing. For those characters that go against the norm, like your agile giant, CSLs and SLs handle those occasional exceptions. In fact, I'm not sure CSLs are even worth it now that you can directly purchase CVs; the jury is still out on that one. I'm not saying Figureds are best for everyone, but if I find myself still crunching the numbers -- that HD used to do for me -- then it clearly is better for me. YMMV.

 

That's why having really good campaign guidelines can help out a lot. This is an issue even with 5e and earlier. I set min and max CV, Damage Class, Def, Special Defs. Also I look at each character to make sure that he/she is survivable in a fight (unless the player want a non combat character for some reason). For new players, I usually help them make a character (ie I usually get a list of what they want the character to do and write them up)

 

BTW one can buy DCV and OCV CSLs in 5e for 5pts each They aren't as good of a buy as DEX in 5e due to getting free SPD.

 

How I figure how high my stats should be. First I look at the Damage Class of attacks (ie 10DC to make the math easy). 2x that should be average for defenses (ie 10def). Now I figure out what an average shot would do to that character (35stun average on DC10 Blast), then subtract that from the defense (ie 15 stun getting though). So now I know I need at least 16 Con to not be stunned by an average attack. I should be able to take anywhere from 1/2 campaign avg SPD(avg 5), attacks of that level so I can have SOME fun in combat (2.5x15=37 stun) So 20PD/ED, 16 stun min, 37 stun. Those are the hard stats to figure even for a 5e and earlier game. The other stats tend to be set by the campaign average and if you see your character being above or below that number and how many points you can spend.

 

Hope this helps

[Vulcan]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

I like figured characteristics. It's not a deal breaker -- and overall I like the tweaks 6e made -- but the rational of figured characteristics simply clicks in my head. So, I'm thinking of going back to those but otherwise using 6e. Here are my questions:

 

• Aside from CSLs (which would go back to a 5e cost), is there anything else that needs adjusting?
  
• Can Hero Designer be easily adjusted to handle the change? (Easily being someone without programming knowledge.)
  

If is is too hard, I'll probably stick with 6e as written.

 

Elemental controls would have to come back. They were the balance for figured characteristics for characters that didn't spend a lot in characteristics, but instead spent a lot on powers.

 

And you'll want to go back to the 5E characteristics costs as well.

[BeZurKur]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

Excellent point on the utility of 5pt CSLs, Tasha. I also agree on the importance of campaign guidelines. I'm not entirely on board with making characters for new players. I understand why a GM would want to, but Hero doesn't play very different than other games, other than the Speed chart, and IMO, it is not necessarily a selling point. Where Hero really shines is as the ultimate toolbox. That's what I was showcasing to the new player. Thanks for the insight, though. You gave me a few things to think about.

 

Elemental controls would have to come back. They were the balance for figured characteristics for characters that didn't spend a lot in characteristics, but instead spent a lot on powers.

 

And you'll want to go back to the 5E characteristics costs as well.

 

I figured on the 5e costs, but the EC take... that's really interesting!

[Tasha]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

I realize that it's a lot of work, but generating a first or second character for a new player can be used to help that person understand how characters are built. You can show how to build powers from concept works. Also once players have that first character they can start to modify that character with Experience. Players can learn Character gen by playing published characters (Which is the way that I tend to teach myself other complex character gen games like 4e D&D and GURPS). They play the published character, see how everything works with the character. They can then use that knowledge to tackle the Character gen to make their own character.

 

For players who are willing to tackle the system on their own, give them the Campaign guidelines then go over the character with an eye for both powers that are too over the top or ones that are ineffective. Also comparing the writeup to the character concept with an eye toward building a tighter character (ie more point efficient).

 

I have a rule that runs though our groups games. We allow players to totally rewrite a character after it has been played in a game. At least for the first 3 sessions or so. Because sometimes PC have powers that look OK on the character sheet, but either don't work the way the player envisions them or are totally over the top overpowred in play. This also sets the expectation that the pre session lookover of character isn't the last GM's word on the issue and also the player isn't stuck with a clunky character.

[BeZurKur]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

Hey all, FWIW, just thought I'd mention that I decided to go with a straight take on 6e. That is: no figureds but with Rapiers "dotted line link" and Tasha's suggestion for clear campaign guidelines. I'm still not crazy that I bust out the calculator while having HD open. However, the math is not hard and although I can't help think that some players maybe a little lost without the dotted line link reference, that's not an issue with our group. Thanks for everyone's feedback.

[Opal]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

It would not be a good idea to go back to Figured Characteristics without also re-introducing Elemental Controls.

 

Of course, I don't think it was a great idea to nix Figured Characteristics while retaining /any/ frameworks. Elemental Controls were the power-oriented cost break most comparable to Figureds, though.

 

It would probably be easier to stick with 5th (or 4th, they're not that different) than try to add figured characteristics back into 6th. If you're committed to 6th, I'd definitely advise you to leave Figureds out of it, it's been extensively re-balanced to work without them.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

Why do you feel it would be so difficult to use Figured Characteristics in 6E? Do you have an actual reason?

[Thanee]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

Going back to figured characteristics is easy. No point changes necessary at all.

 

Just require a certain amount of OCV/DCV/OMCV/DMCV/SPD/PD/ED/REC/END/BODY/STUN to be bought when you reach certain thresholds of STR/DEX/CON/INT/EGO/PRE.

[JmOz]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

I think the dotted line aproach is right on. There should have been IMO a toolbox box in the book saying you could add figured characteristic, or that these values make a good rough estimate of what a character should have

[Rapier]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

I think the dotted line aproach is right on. There should have been IMO a toolbox box in the book saying you could add figured characteristic' date=' or that these values make a good rough estimate of what a character should have[/quote']

 

For OCV/DCV that is pretty easy. A campaign rule that says OCV/DCV = DEX / 3. It gets a little more complicated for STUN, END, PD and ED. These are stats that are very commonly increased above their base. I believe that a small increase in available points (as suggested in 6E, the points available for the 'category' of game have increased) should just about make up the difference in these costs.

 

But when building characters, I still eyeball their base OCV/DCV based off their DEX! I think I will for probably quite a while.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

Dex is worth 2 points a piece so a player could buy it down to 8

that won't penalize the character's dexterity skills at 11- if it has any

use the 4 points buy +1 DCV only while appearing clumsy -1/4 (lock out -5 presence)

 

the standard 23 has been removed from super heroic games

yes, that elemental package deal that experts of calculated statts rely on

A 23 dexterity was optimal in rounding by 3 and by 5

on got the most bang for their points in dexterity 8 OCV/DCV 14- still roles

 

that set the campaign bar at 8 Combat Value

 

 

a 23 constitution is also standard and that set the range of damage classes

 

 

6th edition won't have these set standards for building

 

with a 400 point builds

I see a lot of characters buying a 100 stun or more in 6th edition

that will prolong combat

one shooting will be less common

endurance may come into play again

[Thanee]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

For OCV/DCV that is pretty easy. A campaign rule that says OCV/DCV = DEX / 3. It gets a little more complicated for STUN' date=' END, PD and ED.[/quote']

 

How so? Just take the formulas from 5th Edition to set MINIMUM values you have to buy.

 

For example, someone buys CON 15, then ED has to be at least 3, REC has to be at least 3 (+STR/5), END has to be at least 30 and STUN has to be at least 8 (+BODY +STR/2).

 

Only difference is, that you actually pay for the "figured characteristics" instead of getting them for free.

 

Bye

Thanee

[Rapier]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

How so? Just take the formulas from 5th Edition to set MINIMUM values you have to buy.

 

But I want to lower my END. I don't need it. Now what?

 

Maybe I want to sell off all my ED so that I can replace it with Resistant Protection. Can I do that?

 

It is very easy to quickly get bogged down in campaign requirements that you end up with half a novel. I'm finding that we are better off to just let them loose and see what turns up.

 

I was, at first, shocked, dismayed and appalled to lose my precious Figured Characteristics. You might as well suggest that Geddy Lee switch to the ukulele as his instrument of choic! But then I began to play with it and look at it and OMG. The versatility!! If I want to have a character with high CON and high END I just give him both. But I don't have to. I can give him a tiny END, little STUN, minor ED, no PD and be perfectly happy (well, at least until this poor excuse for a hero gets into his first combat! 8P). It's extremely liberating and leads to some truly fantastic builds that are highly effective and very fun to play. I guess a ukulele isn't that bad after all!

 

At the very most, a simple statement of 'characters with DEXs of 13 - 17, routinely have OCVs/DCVs of 5' is more than sufficient. It should be nothing more than the chart that lists 'Superhuman Intelligence' ranges from 20 - 25.

[Kristopher]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

How so? Just take the formulas from 5th Edition to set MINIMUM values you have to buy.

 

For example, someone buys CON 15, then ED has to be at least 3, REC has to be at least 3 (+STR/5), END has to be at least 30 and STUN has to be at least 8 (+BODY +STR/2).

 

Only difference is, that you actually pay for the "figured characteristics" instead of getting them for free.

 

You always did pay for them.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Impact of Figured Characteristics

 

You always did pay for them.

 

 

And at least I could already do all those things rapier mentioned anyway. people just didn't think the cost break was fair i guess because nothing new under the sun except disconnecting CVs.