Champions Online - Cue Dead Parrot Sketch!

[Logan D]

Well. Maybe you may have heard of the shenanigans over in Champions Online. Maybe you haven't.

 

In a nutshell - they released the game in what most people consider to have been a "non-complete" status, to use the polite term. And have essentially done squat with it except do half-assed bug fixes since then. People (including me) have been holding out hope that there would be more actual content released. And hoping that the game (which, at it's core, is a good system) would be supported at least as well as Cryptic did with City of Heroes.

 

Well it hasn't worked out like that.

 

The "big announcement" that Cryptic PR people made was the announcement of a few features like "flashback" systems (hmmm... that sounds familiar), a difficulty slider (even more familiar) some new costume pieces, and "Vibora Bay" a new city zone (on the coast of Florida) that would cover content from level 37-40.

 

But it's paid content.

 

That's it.

 

That's all there is.

 

No raise of the level cap to 50. No "full zones" for free.

 

For perspective, in the same time-frame of City of Heroes opening to 5-6 months in, there were 3 free updates that added 7 new zones, capes, multiple costume slots, costume tailoring, 4-5 new enemy groups. graphics upgrades, renovation and addition of new maps for missions, and oodles of new costume pieces. All for free.

 

How the mighty have fallen.

 

Overall opinion, despite Cryptic's claims to the contrary, is that CO has been left fallow and most of the development team was reassigned to Star Trek Online. Leaving CO as the "red-headed step child".

 

Here are some primers. Amazingly enough, there's been little actual "Flaming" going on at the forums. Most people are posting well thought out responses. Even the "see you later, I'm out of here" posts are polite. But the exodus is relentless.

 

http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=99469

 

The above thread has attempts at a time-line of events and is probably the quickest overall look at what has happened, but the following threads show other perspectives and opinions as well.

 

http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=98554

http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=98958

http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=99007

 

 

I THANK GOD I didn't buy a lifetime subscription. And those of you who might be thinking of buying one for Star Trek Online, you'd better look DAMN LONG AND HARD at what Cryptic did here before even CONSIDERING giving them ONE RED CENT.

 

When you have hardcore Cryptic Defenders like this leaving the game -

 

http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=99636

 

When the company rep (Daeke) who made the announcement of Vibora Bay being paid content is fired (apparently) for mentioning the part about Vibora being paid content early (and thank GOD he did) -

 

http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=99488

http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=99523

 

When even the people who organized the Wiki are asking "what's the point of logging on anymore?"

 

http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=99525

 

When lifetime subscribers are saying they feel like they got screwed without even being taken out for dinner.

 

http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=99687

 

I'd say it's time to start the betting pool for when the servers will be shut down.

 

I've already canceled my subscription. I may check back in another few months and see what there is to see. But for now I'm back to playing City of Heroes.

 

This is not in any way a schadenfreude moment. I'm genuinely sorry to see this happen. I liked lots of things about CO. I think the game itself would have loads of potential even now in the hands of a developer that gave a shit about it.

 

I've been a Champions fanboy since being introduced to the 4th edition version of the Pen and Paper game in 1992. I have close to 97% of all paper products they've produced since that time. If I gathered all the Champions books I own in one place and stacked them, I think they'd easily go from floor to ceiling and then some.

 

I have NEVER seen a company FUBAR an IP like this so badly before. NEVER. And I worry that the fallout will hurt Hero Games in the process.

 

This is a game that has SO MUCH potential. The lore is incredibly deep (more so if you know the background from the books, like I do).

 

And it's being left to ROT because of corporate bean counters. To say that I'm incensed would be to say that Hiroshima was a pretty big explosion.

[Logan D]

Re: Champions Online - Cue Dead Parrot Sketch!

 

I'd like to think they'll turn this around and make things right. But apparently, according to this poster here -

 

http://forums.champions-online.com/showpost.php?p=1466959&postcount=18

 

-they are doing many of the same things with Star Trek Online.

 

One MORE thing for you to consider: Take a close look at Atari's statement of their business strategy:

 

http://corporate.atari.com/infogramesgb/2007/04/strategy_1.php

 

I present it with no further comments. Just read it and interpret it. I'd be interested to see if you came to the same conclusions I did.

[Catacomb]

Re: Champions Online - Cue Dead Parrot Sketch!

 

I completely agree.

 

There was so much potential in this game, and unless drastic changes are made its going to die.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Champions Online - Cue Dead Parrot Sketch!

 

There was so much potential in this game' date=' and unless drastic changes are made its going to die.[/quote']Which makes me wonder... if it does die, what happens to the IP?

[lemming]

Re: Champions Online - Cue Dead Parrot Sketch!

 

Which makes me wonder... if it does die' date=' what happens to the IP?[/quote']

 

Steve & Darren talked about this in many threads, but even though I don't play CO, I think it's early to proclaim doom.

[RexMundi]

Re: Champions Online - Cue Dead Parrot Sketch!

 

Not me. We could start a Pool though.

 

~Rex

[ajackson]

Re: Champions Online - Cue Dead Parrot Sketch!

 

I have NEVER seen a company FUBAR an IP like this so badly before. NEVER

Really? It's pretty common. In any case, it's not even a problem with management of the IP, it's just incompetent management of general operations.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Champions Online - Cue Dead Parrot Sketch!

 

Which makes me wonder... if it does die' date=' what happens to the IP?[/quote']

 

Well, the license of the IP back to Hero Games was supposed to be in perpetuity, so I imagine the company could still use it even if Cryptic Studios/ Atari choose to no longer support the MMO. Contractually, if the company holding the IP crashes altogether, the rights to it revert back to Hero Games.

 

I don't doubt that the Champions Online forums postings are experiencing some hyperbole, as Internet forums are wont to do; but a "sinking ship" mentality does seem to have taken hold. I had no experience or interest in CO, but I feel bad for everyone who were looking forward to it and have been disappointed. Perhaps it will still turn around; I just hope the current negativity doesn't hurt our beloved PnP franchise.

[RexMundi]

Re: Champions Online - Cue Dead Parrot Sketch!

 

Yeah the IP is solid. It's the Architecture. *sigh* But as for FUBAR. Matrix Online, Starwars Galaxies, etc, etc.......

 

Thing is with this, it Started as Something else, and that tends to work out badly when you want to make something go at it when the Original IP folks go....."Uhmmmm.....No.....*YANK*".....

 

So long as the IP reverts back to DOJ when CO goes up in Flames, I'll be happy. Right now after reading all the stuff here and there, and the stuff on the CoX boards as well, I don't hold out much hope, especially if it's all Pay For Expansion, and Evony style Pay for perk bloat.

 

~Rex

[Logan D]

Re: Champions Online - Cue Dead Parrot Sketch!

 

Yeah the IP is solid. It's the Architecture. *sigh* But as for FUBAR. Matrix Online, Starwars Galaxies, etc, etc.......

~Rex

 

Point taken.

 

I suppose I COULD defend my statement on the grounds that I PERSONALLY had never played those games, therefore I would still have been correct in saying that I MYSELF had never PERSONALLY seen a FUBAR of that magnitude, but that would be stretching a technical point to cover for my hyperbole.

 

In any event. *Ahem*

 

I posted about this in another board, and a friend who played CO and has moved on to STO had this to say:

 

You guys are insufficiently cynical. I'm not angry about this, and this is coming from someone who has played Champions.

 

I'm not angry. Because I expected this months ago. I got all my disappointment out of the way ages ago. I didn't want to say it at the time - but, Logan, you were wondering why I let my Champions subscription lapse a couple weeks before this came out?

 

Yeah. I wanted to see how this announcement would turn out. And I expected this outcome. See...

 

Cryptic never said the big content update to Champions Online would be free. The fact that they're billing this as a paid expansion isn't a surprise to me, because I read between the lines. I suppose this is in part because I've worked in media and marketing. But let me break it down:

 

They said they would have a big content update in first quarter 2010. This was generally talked about in context of other additions they'd made to the game, like the Celestial powerset and the Nemesis Confrontation lair, which were free. Therefore the quite logical conclusion most people made - and indeed, I suspect, the impression they wanted to give, is that...hey, we're cool and we give you all this stuff.

 

Thing is, they never said the 2010 content update would be free. They never did. Look carefully. What they did say was that they'd announce their free update and paid expansion plans in 2010. Which again is worded in a way that can suggest a significant amount of stuff will be added for free.

 

Nowhere did they actually say the lion's share of stuff would be free.

 

This is, consistently, what they do. Take the lifetime subscriptions for Star Trek Online. There was a live chat shortly before STO was released, where someone asked Jack Emmert...whether they could still buy a lifetime sub for STO after launch, because they have trouble getting the money together now.

 

Emmert's response was that the special lifetime subscription offer expires on launch date.

 

Which is completely true, but also completely misleading. The truth is the lifetime subscription offer did expire on launch. You can still buy a lifetime now, at a higher price and without the package perks.

 

But they didn't actually lie. They never actually lie. This is important.

 

Now. I'm playing Star Trek Online. But I'm a Trekkie. I'd play Star Trek Online if the collective dev team took a crap in a cardboard box and called it a video game. I fully admit that. I happen to think it's a good game, and a damn sight better than Champions.

 

I also know this, though: when you look at what Cryptic says, expect exactly what they say, and nothing more. Don't read anything into what they say. Take it at literal face value.

 

So, yeah. Point taken. Lesson learned. The devil is in the details and as much in what is NOT said as what IS said.

 

The devil himself would be proud of Cryptic. That's some first class leading on by omission, there.

[RexMundi]

Re: Champions Online - Cue Dead Parrot Sketch!

 

I was never overly impressed with Cryptic when it was the pure Cryptic COH days (Their general viewpoint of Brick type characters and folks that like them tend to make me want to smash people). They are the kings of leading by Omission. I'd even be fine for Paid content really, if there was some content there...... City of Villains, was worth paying for content wise when it came out. Basic Updates, should not be something you try and squeeze more blood out of in order to fund the other side project. Pretty lame really.

 

~Rex ....still says, 6 months. Gives STO a year tops.

[Certified]

Re: Champions Online - Cue Dead Parrot Sketch!

 

The devil himself would be proud of Cryptic. That's some first class leading on by omission, there.

 

Could we say that this accurately sums up your opinion?

 

So I was a beta tester for CoH and a beta tester for Co. I kept my subscription to City of Heroes until I got a lifetime subscription to Champions. Although I don't have a high opinion of Atari I do believe that Cryptic is capable of a solid game. People like to focus on the places where the game has faltered so I'll try to focus on what they've done right. Although before I get started I'd like to point out that at launch none of the Task Forces worked and were play at your own risk. It wasn't until months afterward that they had most of them working although it would take several more months before the first task force was available. Anywho...

 

CO broke away from the traditional class/role mold of thinking developing an open ended advancement system. Content is for the most part solo friendly and when it is not the missions are clearly marked as such. Game play is fast paced and not as repetitive as other MMOs (yes CO combat can get repetitive but it's not nearly as bad as other games I've played.) Advancement is designed with a try before you buy mechanic so that there is less chance of "screwing up your character" when you level. CO has multiple ways to deliver missions to the character including the traditional contacts, saving people on the street, the Crime Computer and the Nemesis system. This also includes the ease of Respecs. Cryptic continues to work on incorporating things that have worked from other MMOs into CO. Unless it is a bug most powers are enhanced not diminished to bring them in line with others abilities. The holiday events try to incorporate and build on Champions lore. (Granted the Halloween event was far better than the Christmas event but they still had unique encounters and quests.)

 

Yes CO has an unfinished feel to it. So did City of Heroes when it launched. Content can feel repetitive (Again how many Defeat All in the Warehouse have you done for CoH?) Not all the new content is free, I don't think they ever said or even implied all the content would be. People are up in arms about Vibora Bay but has it even been priced? They haven't raised the level cap yet. Overall there is a lack of solid content and strong mission stories. A lot of what you encounter can seem like fluff or puns. At the same time the recent addition of new top level content seems to address this directly.

 

Overall CO isn't a breakout smash hit. It is however a solid game. Cryptic seems to be trying to improve game play and add content. Everything up to Vibora Bay has been free including several major story arcs and a new PVP mode that actually manages to be fun even for people who don't like PVP.

 

Kick and scream the game will continue to evolve. Some choices may be right others wrong. Hopefully Cryptic will learn from their mistakes and despite how some people may feel we wont know if Vibora Bay is a mistake until it's released.

[Deadborder]

Re: Champions Online - Cue Dead Parrot Sketch!

 

Agreed entirely Logan. (And I didn't realise that you had been playing CO. Had I known... who am I kidding? I'd have still dumped the game)

 

When I dumped CO back in December, it was with a bucket load of dissapointment that bordered on anger. I felt that the game had a lot of potential, but Cryptic had handled it so incredibly poorly. I've done a more lengthy rant (http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/78138-What-do-you-really-think-of-Champions-Online/page2) which I won't repeat, but I'm glad to see that I wasn't the only one feeling that way.

 

For a while, I was helping to run a community fan wiki. Within a month I was the sole moderator, as the others had stopped playing. As near as I can tell, its entirely leaderless now. And nobody's even bothering to take my place.

 

Simply put, Cryptic failed to deliver in every way, shape or form. Certainly I couldn't justify contionuing to pay my monthly subscription. And I defintely was not going to pay more money for content that should have been included in the game to begin with.

 

(Incidentally, Logan, if I can ask, what chracter were you playing?)

[RexMundi]

Re: Champions Online - Cue Dead Parrot Sketch!

 

Yeah but when they make their Bazillions off of STO, then they can channel that cash and effort back into CO, and deliver product aye?

 

~Rex

[Logan D]

Re: Champions Online - Cue Dead Parrot Sketch!

 

Yeah but when they make their Bazillions off of STO, then they can channel that cash and effort back into CO, and deliver product aye?

 

~Rex

 

Well one would HOPE that'd be the case. But they already have their NEXT MMO in the pipe, so...

 

*shrug*

[incrdbil]

Re: Champions Online - Cue Dead Parrot Sketch!

 

In a nutshell - they released the game in what most people consider to have been a "non-complete" status, to use the polite term.

 

and an inaccuate term. It launhced just like most other MMO's.

 

 

 

The "big announcement" that Cryptic PR people made was the announcement of a few features like "flashback" systems (hmmm... that sounds familiar)

 

took COH how many years to get to that?

a difficulty slider (even more familiar)

 

A feature many people seem to be wanting. They should be criticized for that?

 

some new costume pieces, and "Vibora Bay" a new city zone (on the coast of Florida) that would cover content from level 37-40.

 

But it's paid content.

 

The zone is paid content. Nothign else of that requires the paying. I'm not happy about VB being a pay zone, but it really depends on how much it is for that zone.

That's it.

 

No raise of the level cap to 50.

 

Why is this expected?

 

For perspective, in the same time-frame of City of Heroes opening to 5-6 months in, there were 3 free updates that added 7 new zones, capes, multiple costume slots, costume tailoring, 4-5 new enemy groups. graphics upgrades, renovation and addition of new maps for missions, and oodles of new costume pieces. All for free.

 

wow, souns like CoH was really incomplete on release then.

 

(Sorry, had to parody the rather whiny atitude to the CO boards for a moment)

 

 

Overall opinion, despite Cryptic's claims to the contrary, is that CO has been left fallow and most of the development team was reassigned to Star Trek Online. Leaving CO as the "red-headed step child".

 

 

Here are some primers. Amazingly enough, there's been little actual "Flaming" going on at the forums. Most people are posting well thought out responses.

 

what? The childish behavior, the ludicrous signature images..many are living up to the worst stereotype of MMO players.

 

 

I THANK GOD I didn't buy a lifetime subscription. And those of you who might be thinking of buying one for Star Trek Online, you'd better look DAMN LONG AND HARD at what Cryptic did here before even CONSIDERING giving them ONE RED CENT.

 

ah, one of those.

 

When the company rep (Daeke) who made the announcement of Vibora Bay being paid content is fired (apparently) for mentioning the part about Vibora being paid content early (and thank GOD he did) -

 

From my POV--Daeke was incompetent, before the VB announcement in his fuction as a community moderator and caused a PR firestorm by an poorly thoguht out release of information at the wrong time.

 

Since his departure, the feedback and communications has been there. The lack of communication and response, the false expectatiosn of legendary updates came under hsi tenue. somehow he's become a martyr out of this

[Logan D]

Re: Champions Online - Cue Dead Parrot Sketch!

 

(Incidentally' date=' Logan, if I can ask, what chracter were you playing?)[/quote']

 

Characters plural. Altitus - I has it. Just as in City of Heroes.

 

(I reposted them over here in this other thread.)

 

And no - I haven't deleted them. They're still there. But I think I'll wait to play them again until there's more for them to actually DO.

[Logan D]

Re: Champions Online - Cue Dead Parrot Sketch!

 

Could we say that this accurately sums up your opinion?

 

So I was a beta tester for CoH and a beta tester for Co. I kept my subscription to City of Heroes until I got a lifetime subscription to Champions. Although I don't have a high opinion of Atari I do believe that Cryptic is capable of a solid game. People like to focus on the places where the game has faltered so I'll try to focus on what they've done right. Although before I get started I'd like to point out that at launch none of the Task Forces worked and were play at your own risk. It wasn't until months afterward that they had most of them working although it would take several more months before the first task force was available. Anywho...

 

CO broke away from the traditional class/role mold of thinking developing an open ended advancement system. Content is for the most part solo friendly and when it is not the missions are clearly marked as such. Game play is fast paced and not as repetitive as other MMOs (yes CO combat can get repetitive but it's not nearly as bad as other games I've played.) Advancement is designed with a try before you buy mechanic so that there is less chance of "screwing up your character" when you level. CO has multiple ways to deliver missions to the character including the traditional contacts, saving people on the street, the Crime Computer and the Nemesis system. This also includes the ease of Respecs. Cryptic continues to work on incorporating things that have worked from other MMOs into CO. Unless it is a bug most powers are enhanced not diminished to bring them in line with others abilities. The holiday events try to incorporate and build on Champions lore. (Granted the Halloween event was far better than the Christmas event but they still had unique encounters and quests.)

 

Yes CO has an unfinished feel to it. So did City of Heroes when it launched. Content can feel repetitive (Again how many Defeat All in the Warehouse have you done for CoH?) Not all the new content is free, I don't think they ever said or even implied all the content would be. People are up in arms about Vibora Bay but has it even been priced? They haven't raised the level cap yet. Overall there is a lack of solid content and strong mission stories. A lot of what you encounter can seem like fluff or puns. At the same time the recent addition of new top level content seems to address this directly.

 

Overall CO isn't a breakout smash hit. It is however a solid game. Cryptic seems to be trying to improve game play and add content. Everything up to Vibora Bay has been free including several major story arcs and a new PVP mode that actually manages to be fun even for people who don't like PVP.

 

Kick and scream the game will continue to evolve. Some choices may be right others wrong. Hopefully Cryptic will learn from their mistakes and despite how some people may feel we wont know if Vibora Bay is a mistake until it's released.

 

Cogent points all. I like many of the things you mention here.

 

Let's just say - I hope I'm wrong and that I get to eat some finely cooked crow. I would like for the game to succeed and do well.

[Guest Celt]

Re: Champions Online - Cue Dead Parrot Sketch!

 

The communications from the Cryptic staff on the CO boards has increased significantly over the last week. Still, there's nothing really meaty said about the future of CO or what non-lifetime subscribers can expect for their monthly dollar. I'm still wary as we've seen these reactions to player upset before. Let's see where it is a month from now. Whether someone wants to ccancel their sub in the interim is left to the individual. I'm in CO for life so it costs me nothing to watch the waterline to see which way the ship floats.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Champions Online - Cue Dead Parrot Sketch!

 

Steve & Darren talked about this in many threads' date=' but even though I don't play CO, I think it's early to proclaim doom.[/quote']I tend to agree here, even though I don't currently play the game (my computer is too tiny and my Internet connection too unreliable). Still, as long as the possibility is strong enough to see on the horizon, however distant that horizon might be, the question is worth asking.

[Guest Celt]

Re: Champions Online - Cue Dead Parrot Sketch!

 

My wife has cancelled her monthly subscription pending any significant updates. We both love the game's possibilities, and our initial play-throughs were fun, but between ever-lasting bugs and limited fresh content she is relying on me to let her know what significant changes may warrant her re-upping. We're also interested to see what Cryptic may do to win back users who have already cancelled their accounts and may not be monitoring the CO site for updates.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Champions Online - Cue Dead Parrot Sketch!

 

My wife has cancelled her monthly subscription pending any significant updates. We both love the game's possibilities' date=' and our initial play-throughs were fun, but between ever-lasting bugs and limited fresh content she is relying on me to let her know what significant changes may warrant her re-upping. We're also interested to see what Cryptic may do to win back users who have already cancelled their accounts and may not be monitoring the CO site for updates.[/quote']

 

I lifetimed and haven't enjoyed it much at all. But I keep checking back and even playing a bit here and there. I'm considering a better graphics card and seeing if i can get it too look as nice as some shots i've seen

[incrdbil]

Re: Champions Online - Cue Dead Parrot Sketch!

 

The parrot isn't dead. It's not getting on the cart. It feels happy.

 

And I have a feeling some of those who sold off/cancelled lifetime accounts might regret the hastiness.

 

http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=99974

 

 

http://www.champions-online.com/node/594840

[Marcus Impudite]

Re: Champions Online - Cue Dead Parrot Sketch!

 

Yet another reason I'm glad I decided to stick with 5th Ed PnP.

[Rapier]

Re: Champions Online - Cue Dead Parrot Sketch!

 

I doubt anyone who cancelled their subscription (or sold it off) is crying in their beer.

 

If someone were to quit solely based off of paying for an update, they are the type of person that is not going to stick to anything for any length of time to begin with.

 

The other people that quit, I would imagine, are primarily the 'straw the broke the camel's back' crowd. There are a number of people I've run into (both in person and virtually) who just had enough. This was just the last thing in a long line of disappointments, for them, that pushed it over the edge into quitting.

 

It's very easy to put out a fancy tempting press release. It's another thing entirely to meet that standard.