Inflicting Drowning...

[bigbywolfe]

First off I’m doing this in 5ER, but an answer in terms of 6E would be just as welcome.

I want to build an Entangle that would seal the person inside without air. Is there a RAW way to have a Power inflict the Drowning rules? I know the traditional way to build a suffocation effect is to use NND with the defense being not having to breathe. However, there are several things I like about the Drowning/Suffocation rules that I prefer to the NND attack approach in this particular situation.

First, the drowning rules makes the character burn through END before losing STUN and a character can reduce his SPD to 2 in order to prolong how long it would take to pass out. A normal person, who wasn’t struggling or burning through END could take quite a while to pass out where as an NND attack just takes all the damage right off the top and doesn’t affect END at all (at least until they pass out). This just seems more natural to me and it seems like it would take a lot of Modifiers to make an NND attack work this way.

Secondly, the Drowning rules make it so that a character that is drowning/suffocating doesn’t get RECoveries. To create this with a Power I believe I’d have to use Suppress REC, or some such, and since this is for a Superheroic character it would have to be a pretty big Suppress. While stopping Recoveries is pretty useful, if I went the NND route the character could possibly be knocked out that much quicker and the lack of Recoveries wouldn't be nearly as significant.

Thirdly, I feel like building a suite of powers that strive to exactly model the Drowning rules is kind of reinventing the wheel.

So, were you to build this, how would you do it? Would you reconstruct the Drowning rules as a suite of Powers? If so, what would it look like? What Limitations would be needed and at what value?

If you think it would be fine to make this an Adder or Advantage (to the Entangle) of some kind how much would that cost?

If you have some other suggestion on how to do this, please let me know.

[Chimera 12]

Re: Inflicting Drowning...

 

You know, now I find myself wondering if there's a good way to build a power like "remove all free oxygen from the air in a given area".

 

But I have a 6E-based idea for the Entangle in question. In the description of the Barrier Power, 6E1 mentions that while Barriers aren't inherently airtight, they can be made so at GM's discretion by Linking Life Support (Self-Contained Breathing) specifically to them. This doesn't appear to give anybody trapped by the Barrier Life Support (there's no mention of Usable Against Others, for one thing) -- it just makes the Barrier itself 'self-contained'.

 

So, why not steal that concept? Link Life Support (Self-Contained Breathing) to the Entangle and declare it to be both airtight and tight enough that any character caught in it starts to suffocate right away unless they have suitable Life Support of their own...

[Daltwisney]

Re: Inflicting Drowning...

 

For 5e, is pretty much going to end up being some form of NND, though typically an NND wouldn't cause END or BODY damage. The sealed Entangle/Barrier is interesting, though in this case the 'suffocation' is a side effect, and it has the added component of 'being' an Entangle/Barrier.

 

My primary reason for responding is that I think the difficulty in modeling this was recognized and addressed in 6e (albeit in the Advanced Players Guide), where there are rules expansions and variants that 'have a Power inflict the Drowning Rules'.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Inflicting Drowning...

 

I just got my 6E books and am still working with 5E since I'm more familiar with it and introducing more people. I'll have to get the APG as soon as possible. I'm glad they finally addressed it, I'm pretty sure I've seen it come up before.

[Vulcan]

Re: Inflicting Drowning...

 

The simple way is to duplicate the effect of suffocation. The game effect of suffocation is that you don't get recoveries and loose 1 END and (eventually) STUN per phase. So, it's a big all-at-once (and preferably all-or-nothing) Drain REC and a gradual open-ended Drain END and (eventually) STUN.

 

Expensive? Yes. But then, it really should be. Removing the ability to take a recovery should cost a lot; at the very least as much as Draining the target's REC down to 0.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Inflicting Drowning...

 

The simple way is to duplicate the effect of suffocation. The game effect of suffocation is that you don't get recoveries and loose 1 END and (eventually) STUN per phase. So, it's a big all-at-once (and preferably all-or-nothing) Drain REC and a gradual open-ended Drain END and (eventually) STUN.

 

Expensive? Yes. But then, it really should be. Removing the ability to take a recovery should cost a lot; at the very least as much as Draining the target's REC down to 0.

Any chance of a write up with the actual Advantages and Limitations needed?

You say it should be expensive, but should it be more expensive than a regular Energy Blast, NND (Defense is Life Support, Doesn't Breathe) which for the same amount of points could usually not only knock them out faster but also send them into GM's discretion so they wouldn't get Recoveries anyway? Unless they have a huge REC the NND attack seems like it will be more efficient at the same point level (though of course I'm thoerizing since I haven't crunched the numbers and am not sure where to start).

 

 

Anyway, I'm off to bed. I'll pick up the conversation tonight if anyone has any other ideas. Thanks everyone.

[Chimera 12]

Re: Inflicting Drowning...

 

For 5e, is pretty much going to end up being some form of NND, though typically an NND wouldn't cause END or BODY damage. The sealed Entangle/Barrier is interesting, though in this case the 'suffocation' is a side effect, and it has the added component of 'being' an Entangle/Barrier.

 

My primary reason for responding is that I think the difficulty in modeling this was recognized and addressed in 6e (albeit in the Advanced Players Guide), where there are rules expansions and variants that 'have a Power inflict the Drowning Rules'.

 

I knew I'd read about a 'suffocation' power somewhere before, I just didn't remember to consult the APG as well as the core books.

 

But yeah, I imagine that that would be pretty much the definitive 6E build: Buy the Entangle, then buy Change Environment: Suffocation as per the APG with 0 END Uncontrolled and Link the two. (You wouldn't need any AoE on the Change Environment because it's just supposed to work on the entangled target.) The "reasonably common and obvious" way to shut off the Uncontrolled suffocation part would be the target escaping the Entangle or at least the portion that actually covers the victim's mouth/nose/other breathing orifice being removed.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Inflicting Drowning...

 

Here's how I'd do it. Use an NND attack, and make the defense: "Not having to breathe OR (spending End AND not using any Recovery)" Of course, if they DO use their Recovery, I guess that'll remove some of the Stun damage as well. I guess just bump up the amount of damage to compensate or something. Once you do that, just use the normal drowning rules since you've simulated it well enough with Powers.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Inflicting Drowning...

 

Expensive? Yes. But then' date=' it really should be. Removing the ability to take a recovery [i']should[/i] cost a lot; at the very least as much as Draining the target's REC down to 0.

 

I question how expensive this should be. Yes, if you build it as a Drain REC, it will be quite expensive. Now, take that cost and make it a Drain STUN, Drain END, Drain STR, or Drain INT. Do you think the equivalent cost REC drain will be nearly as effective? I don't. And I'm glad 6e finally addressed this, although I would prefer this not so uncommon effect be covered in the core rules.

[Utech]

Re: Inflicting Drowning...

 

Link to Transform air to vacuum?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Inflicting Drowning...

 

If you have the Advanced Players Guide, see p. 83.

[Vulcan]

Re: Inflicting Drowning...

 

Any chance of a write up with the actual Advantages and Limitations needed?

You say it should be expensive, but should it be more expensive than a regular Energy Blast, NND (Defense is Life Support, Doesn't Breathe) which for the same amount of points could usually not only knock them out faster but also send them into GM's discretion so they wouldn't get Recoveries anyway? Unless they have a huge REC the NND attack seems like it will be more efficient at the same point level (though of course I'm thoerizing since I haven't crunched the numbers and am not sure where to start).

 

A big NND would KO the target instantly; drowning rarely does so.

 

If you want a big NND and want to call it 'drowning', so be it. But by rules on environemental damage, drowning does not cause immediate damage; it prevents recoveries. Duplicating that with a power involves a power build that reduces the target's REC to 0. Simple as that.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Inflicting Drowning...

 

Here's how I'd do it. Use an NND attack' date=' and make the defense: "Not having to breathe OR (spending End AND not using any Recovery)" Of course, if they DO use their Recovery, I guess that'll remove some of the Stun damage as well. I guess just bump up the amount of damage to compensate or something. Once you do that, just use the normal drowning rules since you've simulated it well enough with Powers.[/quote']

I think this may be the way I go, at least until I get the APG/switch to 6E (which I just finally picked up).

A big NND would KO the target instantly; drowning rarely does so.

 

If you want a big NND and want to call it 'drowning', so be it. But by rules on environemental damage, drowning does not cause immediate damage; it prevents recoveries. Duplicating that with a power involves a power build that reduces the target's REC to 0. Simple as that.

I specifically don't want that, that's the whole point of me starting this thread. Suppressing or Draining REC may be the only RAW way to do this in 5E, but to suppress supers, many of which have 30+ recovery, is much more expensive than the benefits would dictate.

[dmjalund]

Re: Inflicting Drowning...

 

probably why APG offered this option

[Fearghus]

Re: Inflicting Drowning...

 

For 5e, is pretty much going to end up being some form of NND, though typically an NND wouldn't cause END or BODY damage. The sealed Entangle/Barrier is interesting, though in this case the 'suffocation' is a side effect, and it has the added component of 'being' an Entangle/Barrier.

 

My primary reason for responding is that I think the difficulty in modeling this was recognized and addressed in 6e (albeit in the Advanced Players Guide), where there are rules expansions and variants that 'have a Power inflict the Drowning Rules'.

 

I am not certain how the drowning mechanic works in the game (don't have books here at work) but this sounds about right to me. NND and does body...

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Inflicting Drowning...

 

I haven't done a drowing power in 6e, but in 5e I worked it with a Drain. You have to define what the Drain goes against when you buy it, so by definition the drowning Drain was 2d6 Drain NND Continuous vs. STN +1d6 Drain NND vs. END Continuous until STN is gone then it switches to END until END is gone (or vice versa) then both Drains switch to BDY. Since it is a Drain, REC doesn't come into play, although you have to slow the recovery rate down to once per 5 min just in case you are drowing a high STN, high BDY brick-type. But then you also get the limitation (-¼) that the recovery rate jumps to 1/PHA once the Drain is stopped (you could have it come back instantly, but I think nearly drowning might slow you down a bit more than that).

 

As for slowing down the target's SPD so he doesn't drown as fast, I ruled that although normally a Continuous power affected the target on the attacker's SPD, for drowning (and gas attacks as well) it is based on the target's SPD which was a -0 limitation (yes it will probably make it slower than basing it on the attacker's SPD, but it tends to force the victim to slow down, and a voluntary SPD drain has to be worth something, and this makes book-keeping easier).

 

This build has the flaw that the victim can still recover STN from other attacks while drowning, and recover whatever END they have left normally until unconscious. But in practice it worked out pretty well, which is why I throw it out here.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Inflicting Drowning...

 

In 5E, I'd build it as Suppress Recovery, Continuous, Uncontrolled, and linked to the Entangle. Suppress because Drains generally return at X rate, while Suppress would remain in effect until the linked Entangle is broken. Also, Suppress is cheaper, so easier to get enough to easily cancel out any and all Recovery. 3d6 with standard effect is only 45 AP and will take 9 CP of Recovery every phase the Entangle is active (if I'm interpreting Continuous Uncontrolled right, it will deal the 9 CP Suppress on every phase until ended, yes?)

 

I might even make it an NND Suppress, with the defense being any type of Life Support that extends breathing or Safe Environment: Vacuum.

 

(Total: 95 Active Cost, 66 Real Cost) Entangle 5d6, 5 DEF (50 Active Points); Cannot Form Barriers (-1/4) (Real Cost: 40) 
plus Suppress: Recovery 3d6 (standard effect: 9 points), Uncontrolled (+1/2), No Normal Defense ([Life Support - 
Extended, Expanded, or Self-Contained Breathing, or Safe Environment: Vacuum]; +1/2), Continuous (+1) (45 Active Points); 
Linked (Entangle; Lesser Power can only be used when character uses greater Power at full value; -3/4) (Real Cost: 26)

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Inflicting Drowning...

 

Yeah, a Suppress on REC would work well in place of the END part of the Drain; then the Drain could go from STN to END to BDY. Should have thought of that. Good call.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Inflicting Drowning...

 

Thanks, those both sound like good possible ways to do this.