Extra SPD only to Dodge

[bigbywolfe]

This would be for either a Speedster or Martial Arts character in a fairly standard Champions game (still using 5E, but 6E comments are welcome as always).

 

I know there are many different ways to allocate “extra SPD”. Grond has the +2 SPD but it’s on an activation roll (and I think he has to grab the target as well, but I could be misremembering). Menton has +4 SPD only for mental attacks and that works differently. My idea is to give a character +1 SPD, only to Dodge (or maybe “Only for Defensive Maneuvers). The way I’m thinking of doing this is not legal per RAW, but I don’t think it will be unbalancing and I wanted assembled Hero-dom’s input.

 

Basically, my thought is that the +1 SPD, only to Dodge, would allow the character to Abort to Dodge without actually Aborting his next Phase. There would be provisions however. The character couldn’t use it before his first “natural” phase (based on his normal SPD). Also, he couldn’t use it if he already acted in a Phase. In fact, I’d probably rule that he couldn’t use it on his own phase, even if he hadn’t already acted yet. So with a SPD of 6 he would only be able to use the extra SPD on Phase 3, 5, 7, 9, or 11.

 

Does this sound unbalancing? If not, does it sound like it might set some kind of bad precedent? Does anyone feel this should require a more complicated build with Trigger or something? Do you have any better ideas of how to get this effect? Do you have any other suggestions for building something similar but different?

 

As always, thanks in advance for the suggestions.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Extra SPD only to Dodge

 

Being able to dodge on any phase isn't necessarily unbalancing. The Dodge (or Martial Dodge) maneuver doesn't help at all vs. any attack which doesn't target the character's normal DCV. His/her opponents will likely be frustrated for a while, then one of them will wise up and use an area effect attack.* Ouch.

 

*Or just gets a lucky hit.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Extra SPD only to Dodge

 

Basically' date=' my thought is that the +1 SPD, only to Dodge, would allow the character to Abort to Dodge without actually Aborting his next Phase[/quote']

 

I think the canonical way to build this would be (assuming the character has SPD 6) would be to buy it as +6 SPD, only for defensive actions (-1 1/2)*. You would never abort, because your SPD (for defensive actions) would be 12.

 

*-1 seemed too small and -2 too large.

[Rapier]

Re: Extra SPD only to Dodge

 

I think you are putting too much effort into it.

 

What you are looking for is that the character is going to be able to avoid being hit when he doesn't have an action.

 

The simplest solution is to just purchase him the +3 DCV with the SFX of dodging.

 

You can also purchase +3 DCV, Only on Phases where he doesn't have an action.

 

You could also purchase +3 DCV Triggered (trigger automatically resets on next action).

 

It's your game and you can do whatever you want, but I wouldn't do this. Part and parcel of the whole deal about Aborting to a Defensive Action is that it's a desperate situation. If the character is in a desperate situation so very often that he is going to need to abort this often, he's got a design flaw in his defenses.

 

I once did an interdimensional being that had Desol Only on Phases He Doesn't Act. It worked wonderfully. Basically he would be all out of phase until his action and everyone would have to hold their actions and wait for him to appear and then try and blast the hell out of him. Would that be appropriate with his SFX? Maybe he's so speedy but when he attacks he has to slow down to a more normal speed and is more vulnerable.

[lemming]

Re: Extra SPD only to Dodge

 

Pretty much what Rapier said. Instead of buying limited Speed, buy limited DCV. Cheaper and Cleaner.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Extra SPD only to Dodge

 

I think I was unclear. This would only allow him to Abort to Dadge once per turn without losing his next action, that's why I only built it as +1 SPD. Sorry, it was late when I posted the OP. So the 12 SPD isn't what I'm looking for, and while I really like the +DCV to mimic Dodge only on off phases, or with a Trigger, it wouldn't allow him to Dive For Cover which could very well be important to a Speedster or MA type character. Hope that clears up any confusion.

 

Thanks for the comments so far, keep them coming.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Extra SPD only to Dodge

 

I agree with Rapier if you want Dodge only; it is such an easy maneuver to simulate. Use DCV-only CSLs in 5E, and a simple +3 to the DCV Characteristic in 6E.

 

If you want defensive maneuvers in general, though, the way I've done this in the past is to allow a Limitation to the extra point of Speed and then require the character to Delay his/her first Phase in the Turn. Basically, until it is used, the character is always operating with a Delayed Phase. With that in mind, I allow some small tweaking to the normal rules. For example, the rule that you lose a held Phase if you don't use it by your next one (I just figure you use the Delayed Phase right before your next Phase comes up, then Delay your new Phase instead).

[azrad]

Re: Extra SPD only to Dodge

 

Yeah, I have a speedster who has extra DVC with "Only if he moved in his last phase (-1/2)". Might be worth more than that, but this particular character is based on move by's and such so I figured he'd be moving quite a bit.

[Rapier]

Re: Extra SPD only to Dodge

 

I think I was unclear. This would only allow him to Abort to Dadge once per turn without losing his next action, that's why I only built it as +1 SPD. Sorry, it was late when I posted the OP. So the 12 SPD isn't what I'm looking for, and while I really like the +DCV to mimic Dodge only on off phases, or with a Trigger, it wouldn't allow him to Dive For Cover which could very well be important to a Speedster or MA type character. Hope that clears up any confusion.

 

Thanks for the comments so far, keep them coming.

 

I think part of the problem is you are trying to reason from a power instead of into a power.

 

You need to step back and first define what you are trying to do. You are not trying to 'allow a defensive maneuver to be used out of turn' you are trying to 'allow him to respond with bursts of extra speed' or something. The rules are rather specific, and trying to do an end-run around the letter of the law and thumbing your nose at it's intent seems like a lot of effort for something that you seem ready to toss out anyway. The character could hold every single action until DEX 1 of the segment before his next phase. This would leave him constantly ready to Dodge and/or D4C. There is no special power needed to do that.

 

The main difference between Dodge and D4C is that D4C possibly has an effect on AoEs. What SFX is going to give this character the right for an out-of-turn movement?

 

Allowing such a heavily limited specific (and special use) SPD is a very, very slippery slope and the precedent should be avoided. If this character gets +1 SPD, Only to Abort to Defense, can another character have +1 SPD, Only to Recover from being Stunned? Only to reload? Only to perform a half-move? Only to start a Haymaker?

 

I know that if I was sitting at a table and a character aborted to a defensive movement like D4C and then got a full action his next phase I would be pissed. I would immediately begin redesigning my character with a good half-dozen +1 SPD Only for X powers.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Extra SPD only to Dodge

 

I think I was unclear. This would only allow him to Abort to Dadge once per turn without losing his next action' date=' that's why I only built it as +1 SPD. Sorry, it was late when I posted the OP. So the 12 SPD isn't what I'm looking for, and while I really like the +DCV to mimic Dodge only on off phases, or with a Trigger, it wouldn't allow him to Dive For Cover which could very well be important to a Speedster or MA type character. Hope that clears up any confusion.[/quote']

 

I thik the base power is still +6 SPD - it is that which would allow you to effect a defensive move in any segment that you had not already moved. If you only want to be able to use that +6SPD once per turn then you need to think just how much that limits the power.

 

InidianaJoe3 suggested +1½ for only being able to use it for defensive actions, I would suggest another +1½ for only being able to use it once. That would make the added action cost 15 points. More than one speed but more useful than that as it could be used in any segment in a turn. I would expect it to cost between 15 and 20 points.

 

Doc

[EisnerFan]

Re: Extra SPD only to Dodge

 

Wouldn't a triggered teleport work just as well for a dive for cover, adding in the limiter that you have to cross through the intervening space? I'm still in 5th Edition, myself, and just now getting back into it after a couple of year break from Hero. Was in several WoD and D&D campaigns that kept me busy.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Extra SPD only to Dodge

 

I know that if I was sitting at a table and a character aborted to a defensive movement like D4C and then got a full action his next phase I would be pissed. I would immediately begin redesigning my character with a good half-dozen +1 SPD Only for X powers.

 

I think I would be annoyed only if the SFX of the character did not warrant such an effect. I think this kind of SPD tinkering would work really well for time manipulation style powers and possibly a few others.

 

IMO it would be for the GM to be exercising his policing powers.

 

Doc

[prestidigitator]

Re: Extra SPD only to Dodge

 

Wouldn't a triggered teleport work just as well for a dive for cover' date=' adding in the limiter that you have to cross through the intervening space? I'm still in 5th Edition, myself, and just now getting back into it after a couple of year break from Hero. Was in several WoD and D&D campaigns that kept me busy.[/quote']

 

No. Teleport is a valid Movement Power to use in a Dive for Cover, but you still have to make the roll. Otherwise, the Trigger could certainly move you where you wanted, but it wouldn't keep you from taking the damage....

[prestidigitator]

Re: Extra SPD only to Dodge

 

Allowing such a heavily limited specific (and special use) SPD is a very, very slippery slope and the precedent should be avoided. If this character gets +1 SPD, Only to Abort to Defense, can another character have +1 SPD, Only to Recover from being Stunned? Only to reload? Only to perform a half-move? Only to start a Haymaker?

 

I know that if I was sitting at a table and a character aborted to a defensive movement like D4C and then got a full action his next phase I would be pissed. I would immediately begin redesigning my character with a good half-dozen +1 SPD Only for X powers.

 

With the understanding that it is really no different from a character with one more point of Speed using Delayed Phases to do the same thing? Sure, why not? It's worth at least a small Limitation if that's all you can use the extra Speed for. But obviously it shouldn't be too cheap. If you bought +1 Speed that is "Only for defensive actions" and +1 Speed that is "Only to Reload", and it turned out to be more expensive than simply buying +1 Speed, would you really be that tempted? I don't think the one for Recovering from Being Stunned would work though, because you couldn't use a Delayed Phase for that; Delayed Phases are lost if you are Stunned or Knocked Out.

[torchwolf]

Re: Extra SPD only to Dodge

 

Depending on the details of the concept, I can see at least 2 variants using Trigger:

 

1) Aid SPD, Self Only, Only For Defensive Purposes [this would of course fade with time, requiring it to be repeated]

 

2) Flying Dodge Martial Maneuver [allowing the equivalent of a DFC, though it might need to be defined whether it would work with all types of movement]

 

You could always have the Trigger taking more time to reset (Zero, Half, or Full), in order to represent a "preparing for defensive measures" Action; doing it that way equalizes the character with others better in terms of available Actions per Turn.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Extra SPD only to Dodge

 

You can also use Secondary Speed from the Advanced Players Guide, but I personally would go the +3 DCV route

[Doc Samson]

Re: Extra SPD only to Dodge

 

I don't know if this is relevant but It hopefully it will provide some inspiration. I once had a player who wanted essentially a "get out of jail free card". The idea was that he wanted to be able to survive seemingly fatal circumnstances like a comic book supervillain. He didn't wanted to be bothered with trying to define the defense as a dodge, block, dive, ect. so he bought it something like this:

 

"Ultimate Defense" Desolidification, variable special effect (defensive actions), trigger (action that takes no time), charges (1).

[prestidigitator]

Re: Extra SPD only to Dodge

 

Call me old fashioned, but I like Luck for that. Heh. Interesting build though.

[Zane_Marlowe]

Re: Extra SPD only to Dodge

 

I'll second Rapier's "what are you trying to simulate" question.

 

Whenever my players build esoteric mechanics to get a mechanical effect rather than a particular effect simulation, I start asking sharper and sharper questions about the effect. Often enough, it turns out that I can build the same effect with simpler mechanics that don't give the players the specific mechanical advantage they were building for, and then I ask why we shouldn't use the simpler version instead. If they start giving me ad hoc amendments to the simulated effect to save the advantage, then I point them to (5) and (6) on 6e2 297.

 

Now a constructive point: look up extra-dimensional movement for speedsters in Ultimate Speedster. You can build super fast characters with the ability to enter the speed zone for a short period of time (a round, say), and while they're there, they can see and interact with the normal speed world. It's a powerful effect, but I think it's a better way to simulate what you're interested in for that kind of character.

 

For martial artists, I'd rely on CSLs to let the character initiate multiple blocks (see 6e2 58) and increase DCV (before dodge maneuver bonuses). Diving for cover is something that should be no problem if the character has a sufficiently high dexterity...and hasn't used an action that phase already. That's the key to the martial artist in super combat--he's got to be smarter than everyone else about how to work combat. While approaching to close range, he can convert everything to defense and use the martial dodge maneuver for +5 DCV in addition to whatever his CSLs give him (+2 to +4 would be normal in my game, depending on the character's expertise). That character should be nigh unhittable except with area attacks, and it's certainly possible for him to hold the approach action until he's at the bottom of a segment so that the next incoming attacks will be in the next segment, which then permits him an abort. Once he's in close, he can do all kinds of stuff.

 

If you're still thinking in the back of your mind, "yeah, but what if..." and the end of that sentence includes several damage sources exerting a focused effort to put your martial artist down, then yes, I'm sorry, but under focused attack, everyone drops. See (3) on 6e2 297; there's no amount of defense that will make you "bulletproof" in the sense that the character is untouchable.

[Zane_Marlowe]

Re: Extra SPD only to Dodge

 

I don't know if this is relevant but It hopefully it will provide some inspiration. I once had a player who wanted essentially a "get out of jail free card". The idea was that he wanted to be able to survive seemingly fatal circumnstances like a comic book supervillain. He didn't wanted to be bothered with trying to define the defense as a dodge, block, dive, ect. so he bought it something like this:

 

"Ultimate Defense" Desolidification, variable special effect (defensive actions), trigger (action that takes no time), charges (1).

 

What, pray tell, was the "reasonably common group of attacks" that affected that kind of desolidification?

[Doc Samson]

Re: Extra SPD only to Dodge

 

It's been awhile but I believe we stole the limitation from Combat Luck to describe what types of damage it didn't work against. For example, if the character were thrown into a volcano, he could escape and define the SFX as he landed in a safe area. If the character jumped into the volcano to willingly (such as to escape an enemy) he could not activate the power.

 

"it doesn’t work if the character is asleep,

unconscious, or deliberately throws himself in the

way of an attack (for example, to save a comrade

from injury). Nor does it protect him from

damage in most situations where he deliberately

does something he knows will hurt him (such as

performing a Move By/Through, both of which

cause him to take some of the damage he does

to the target)."

[Fireg0lem]

Re: Extra SPD only to Dodge

 

Secondary Speed (APG) is the canonical way to do this.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Extra SPD only to Dodge

 

I don't have the APG yet. In fact, if you noticed in the OP I'm still using 5ER for the time being. I will be sure to look it up as soon as I get it though.

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: Extra SPD only to Dodge

 

After looking in my brand new copy of HERO Martial Arts I can safely say that putting trigger on your defensive manoeuvres is prohibitively expensive. You should probably go with secondary speed.