Proper Whip Build in 6e

[Arc Esu]

I cannot figure out how the Whip is built in 6e, particularly how the "can Grab" note is factored in. So far I have:

 

Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1/2d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (15 Active Points); OAF (-1), STR Minimum 5 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -3/4), Real Weapon (-1/4), Required Hands One-Handed (-0)

 

So this covers 15 Active, 5 real. But the whip is 27 Active, 11 Real according to 6e. +6 meters of reach would be 21 Active, 11 Real, so I don't see how it's possible to get to 27 Active, 11 Real. Is this errata, or is it some kind of complex multipower build that I haven't considered?

[Rapier]

Re: Proper Whip Build in 6e

 

Don't know. I've got the same thing:

 

Whip: (Total: 21 Active Cost, 11 Real Cost) RKA 1/2d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (15 Active Points); OAF (-1), STR Minimum 4-8 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -3/4), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 5) plus Reach 6m (6 Active Points) (Real Cost: 6)

 

21 Total Active

11 Total Real.

 

Maybe Steve can't read his own writing?

 

If this is for a SuperHeroic campaign, the 21 Active should be well under any campaign limits so should pose no problems. The Real Cost is the same, so just leave it as you built it.

 

If this is for a Heroic campaign, heroes at the most use Resource Points (if anything) and again, those are based off the Real Cost.

 

As long as the Real Cost is the same and the Active Points aren't prohibitive for your campaign limits (and you know how it works), I wouldn't sweat the difference.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Proper Whip Build in 6e

 

If whips are killing attacks how can people receive hundreds (refence below) of lashes as punsihment and sometimes not die?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lashes

[Rapier]

Re: Proper Whip Build in 6e

 

If whips are killing attacks how can people receive hundreds (refence below) of lashes as punsihment and sometimes not die?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lashes

 

There are different types of whips and we are only MODELLING reality here. In my mind, I would have thought a whip would be a normal attack but I've no problem with it being a KA.

[mattingly]

Re: Proper Whip Build in 6e

 

Proper whip? Is that the opposite of a naughty whip?

 

I'd add Indirect (it's very hard to Block a whip), and possibly a higher STUN Multiplier, but Reduced Penetration.

[Doc Samson]

Re: Proper Whip Build in 6e

 

There are different types of whips and we are only MODELLING reality here. In my mind' date=' I would have thought a whip would be a normal attack but I've no problem with it being a KA.[/quote']

It's just a stray thought that has bugged me a few times. I agree with you on the normal attack.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Proper Whip Build in 6e

 

Actually it's very EASY to block a whip; stop the wave from propagating down to the tip, and the whip will be completely ineffective. Ever tried handling a whip? You can't exactly use it around corners or obstacles (unless you can reach your actual arm or the handle around that obstacle, which you could do with any other weapon as well).... But in any case if you really want some form of Indirect, I think you can just remove some of the Limitations used on the weapon's Stretching/Reach (like below).

 

Anyway, I THINK most weapons' reach would be built with a version of Stretching/Reach that can only do damage. Remove that restriction from the whip (and let Real Weapon take care of the things you couldn't actually use your Str for at range using a whip) and you get your Grab back.

[Arc Esu]

Re: Proper Whip Build in 6e

 

Thanks for the responses guys. I've PMed Steve to let him know that the Active and Real points may be errata; I'll post if he confirms or denies it.

 

That all being said, the ideas of how a whip should be built in this thread have been very interesting, and regardless of the "official" build, I may build it differently. I particularly like Mattingly's suggestion of Reduced Penetration and Increased Stun Multiplier. I agree with Prestidigitator that Indirect isn't really appropriate (unless you're building a very cinematic whip, perhaps).

 

I think I'll go with:

 

Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), +1 Stun Multiplier (+1/4) (26 Active Points); OAF (-1), STR Minimum 5 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -3/4), Real Weapon (-1/4), Reduced Penetration (-1/4), Required Hands One-Handed (-0), Real Cost 8 PLUS 6 meters of reach (without the "Only To Do Damage" limitation) for a total of 32 Active, 14 Real

 

Perhaps a purely "realistic" whip should instead be Hand to Hand attack, perhaps also with Reduced Penetration although I think technically you're not supposed to apply it to Normal Damage attacks.

 

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[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Proper Whip Build in 6e

 

I believe that whips built as Killing Attacks are those that have metal tips or barbs in them, giving some cutting power (still you ought to apply Reduced Penetration though). For a less cruel version, such as Indiana Jones' iconic equipment, I would probably use a small HTH attack instead. In either case, you might care to give the character +5 PRE only for attacks just because the crack of the whip is so intimidating.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Proper Whip Build in 6e

 

I am skilled with a bullwhip, so I can share a couple of things.

 

IF you hit the target with the crack of the whip, it is indeed killing. Doing so is very difficult, and I think the inaccurate limitation is appropriate.

 

Do not forget the grabbing ability of the whip, that is it's utility. I once locked a whip on a tree branch so well I had to climb up to untangle it. Again, however, inaccurate.

 

Also, whips longer than 4m are simply not usable in combat. The reset time is crazy. 2-3m is ideal if you are going to be in any kind of close quarters. You either have to maintain a rotation of the whip (6m is 20' people, a radius) or you do a toss back and snap forward. Even with the toss you need most of the length because if it isn't straight, it isn't controllable.

 

When you talk about multiple lashes, it's exactly that - a leather strap that is striking the target, not the crack of a bullwhip (which does not need a metal barb). I put a hole in a coffee can (tin, heavy) with a bullwhip. I hate to imagine what that would have done to flesh.

 

I think you can model a lash as a simple killing attack, 1 pip, with medium reach. If it is barbed and such that is about 1/2d6k.

 

However, a bullwhip should be a killing attack and stretching multipower, 2-3m in length for close combat, 4-5 if you are using it on the plains and I can't imagine trying to control a 6m+ whip with any kind of combat effectiveness. In combat, the bullwhip is most useful to grab things, not damage.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Proper Whip Build in 6e

 

I bow to your experience. Thanks for the reality check. Still, I think the cinematic whip probably has too much appeal to be modelled realistically in a RPG. BTW, does anyone know if bullwhips were ever considered weapons of war instead of instruments of intimidation/punishment? And (more tangentially) how similar are chain weapons? I can see a lot more bludgeoning utility in a heavy chain, but I don't think weapons like the kusari had heavy chains or were used that way.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Proper Whip Build in 6e

 

Also' date=' whips longer than 4m are simply not usable in combat. The reset time is crazy. 2-3m is ideal if you are going to be in any kind of close quarters. You either have to maintain a rotation of the whip (6m is 20' people, a radius) or you do a toss back and snap forward. Even with the toss you need most of the length because if it isn't straight, it isn't controllable. [/quote']

 

Yeah, no kidding. I was astonished when I first saw that length in the book. But I suppose that's one we can ignore for cinematic effect....

[prestidigitator]

Re: Proper Whip Build in 6e

 

And (more tangentially) how similar are chain weapons? I can see a lot more bludgeoning utility in a heavy chain' date=' but I don't think weapons like the kusari had heavy chains or were used that way.[/quote']

 

As far as I know, chains have to be wielded as chains, not whips. That might be different for a superhero, perhaps, but just try messing around with a chain that is 2m+ in length and I think you'll see what I mean....

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Proper Whip Build in 6e

 

Bullwhip is a tool, not a weapon. A lash is an instrument of intimidation/punishment. I don't think you would get very far wielding a whip in combat. It's great for cinematics, but boot to the head is what you will get.

[Escafarc]

Re: Proper Whip Build in 6e

 

[Lucius]

Re: Proper Whip Build in 6e

 

Perhaps it can be modeled strictly as Stretching, as Stretching allows a Normal Attack at "Range" anyway.

 

If it's a Killing Attack, it definitely needs Reduced Penetration.

 

As for the intimidation factor, perhaps it needs Striking (literally) Appearance

 

Lucius Alexander

 

the palindromedary is sure it's only a matter of time until I whip something up

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Proper Whip Build in 6e

 

I don't normally quote wikipedia, but the section on whips as practical combat weapons is pretty concise, so here....

 

"As practical weapons

 

Because of popularity of whips in film and television, people often want to learn to use the whip as a weapon, though in reality only certain types and usages are practical. Whips when applied against a human adversary work primarily through inflicting pain and fear rather than actual force.

 

Short, stiff whips, including crops, are capable of inflicting welts or painful stings, but typically no disabling injuries. The more martially-designed sjambok can inflict serious wounds and sometimes even cut through clothing.

 

Single-tailed whips hold a fearsome reputation from popular depictions; the fear of being painfully struck and the loud crack produced by long whips can scare less resolute opponents into fleeing.

 

Striking a person or animal with a single-tail whip can inflict cuts, but with a whip made from common materials, these wounds are simple high-speed abrasions that do not penetrate more than the depth of the skin. If the whip has sharp barbs or the tip includes material, such as Kevlar, that is fine enough and strong enough to cut, there can be more serious wounds, but even with these, a disabling injury is unlikely. Whips with these features require an expert whip handler to avoid inadvertently cutting themselves, the whip, or other people or objects the whip may contact.

 

A single-tail whip can wrap around limbs or body or the neck. This is fairly easy to do, but not practical in most physical combat environments where it is difficult to maintain the necessary spacing between the target and the person throwing the whip.

 

Some shorter whips are designed with a heavy lead or steel ball woven into the pommel or a shot bag filled with lead shot braided into the body. Other whips have flexible metallic cable or rigid metal rods in the handle. These materials provide mass, making the whip easier to crack during normal use. These weights and rigid pieces also enable the whip to be reversed and used as a bludgeon.

 

The Chinese Jiujiebian ("nine section whip"), is a segmented metal chain whip designed for use in martial arts. In the hands of someone trained in its uses, it is considerably more effective as a weapon than other whips."

[Christopher]

Re: Proper Whip Build in 6e

 

Perhaps it can be modeled strictly as Stretching, as Stretching allows a Normal Attack at "Range" anyway.

 

If it's a Killing Attack, it definitely needs Reduced Penetration.

 

As for the intimidation factor, perhaps it needs Striking (literally) Appearance

I agree with that. I would also built Wonder Womans Lasso as Stretching on a Focus.

Maybe add extra STR, 0 END for certain Maneuvers (trips, disarms).

[BhelliomRahl]

Re: Proper Whip Build in 6e

 

This is how I built the whip used in one of my games.

 

7 Whip: Multipower, 15pt Reserve; all OAF (-1)

1f 1) Whip Slash: RKA 1/2d6; OAF (-1), Limited Range (6m; -1/4), Reduced Penetration (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4), Strength Minimum (5; STR Minimum Does Not Add to Damage (-3/4)).

1f 2) Whip Grab: Stretching 6m, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2); OAF (-1), Always Direct (-1/4), No Noncombat Stretching (-1/4), Cannot Do Damage (-1/2)

1f 3) Whip Swing: Swinging 12m; OAF (-1), Extra Time (Full Phase (-1/2)

Basically is the Whip from HSEG but with swing added in, need some method to escape over the pit as the boulder comes behind you.

Considered adding a STR bonus for purpose of grabbing, but felt that a whip does not enhance a grab but allows it to be done at range.

 

Might be worth adding:

Whip Strangle: Energy Blast 1d6, AVAD-NND (Hardened Collar or Does no Need to Breath (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2); OAF (-1), Limited Range (6m; -1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4), Strength Minimum (5; STR Minimum Does Not Add to Damage (-3/4)).

Might not be realistic but it worked for my game.

 

[Sean Waters]

Re: Proper Whip Build in 6e

 

I probably would not use "reduced penetration" as it does not model that well: whips are not really killing weapons, whilst they can cut the skin they will never go deep enough to do any organ damage, which is what usually kills. When they do kill it is probably because of blood loss/dehydration or shock.

 

I have a house rule that you can never have more Stun than (Total Stun - Body Taken) to stop the silliness of being down 10 Body but on full Stun. Then build the whip as a killing attack that does no actual Body but the notional body still requires healing, which means it hurts for a long time even if it never actually going to be life threatening, as you will be down some Stun until you would have healed the equivalent Body. You can also use the notional Body total for the bleeding rules, which is how a whip can kill, given time.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Proper Whip Build in 6e

 

I think the build is fine, and reduced pen on 1/2d6K is fine for cinematic purposes -- essentially a biker jacket will probably protect you.

 

I do however think your whip is too long if you want even a touch of realism. 4m is probably a better bet. If you stay with 6m, I would suggest making the whole MP a Full Phase - you can't really move while trying to use a whip (unless you were maybe on a horse), or taking a -2 OCV penalty for doing so. The longer the whip, the longer it takes to either set up (so that it is in a line behind you) or that you have to keep it spinning overhead (requiring a 6m radius circle free of obstacles).

[Bloodstone]

Re: Proper Whip Build in 6e

 

Just for the record, 6m is a rather big whip. They make 20' whips, they just aren't what you commonly see.

 

Most folks use a whip in the 8-12' range. That's generally the size you see in the Indiana Jones and Zorro movies (though they will use longer ones in certain scenes).

 

I own a variety of different whips in the 6-12' range.

 

My next one will be a 3' snake whip

 

EDIT: beat to the punch. took too long to hit post!

[Christopher]

Re: Proper Whip Build in 6e

 

I don't think you need Swinging. Just having that much reach (1m normal + 6m Stretching) should be enough to get over any chasms.