6th Edition Mega-Scale and Movement

[Fireg0lem]

Re: 6th Edition Mega-Scale and Movement

 

This is why more people need to remember / enforce the minimum purchase rules. I generally use 10 points as the minimum purchase.

 

I don't think there's a flaw in the system here per se but I think Minimum Purchase should have more of a "BEEP BEEP LOOK AT ME I'M AN IMPORTANT RULE" thing attached to it.

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: 6th Edition Mega-Scale and Movement

 

But I only wanted 20m Running, not 22m. Now I have to by two more metres of combat running, and move some of my stats to breakpoints.

 

/joke

 

Actualy I just realised that all my figuring is high by a facter of 10^4, but it would be one point and EQUAL to a +1/4 advantage to correct (and I am to lazy to correct), and you would get 1m more in normal movement to boot

 

No, it's one point less than a +1/4 advantage on the 20m Teleport would be, unless your saying that the megascale wasn't actually +19, but as long as it's at least +16 the final costs should be the same.

[JmOz]

Re: 6th Edition Mega-Scale and Movement

 

But I only wanted 20m Running, not 22m. Now I have to by two more metres of combat running, and move some of my stats to breakpoints.

 

/joke

 

 

 

No, it's one point less than a +1/4 advantage on the 20m Teleport would be, unless your saying that the megascale wasn't actually +19, but as long as it's at least +16 the final costs should be the same.

 

Actualy that is what I was saying, I had figured it out as if it was a +20 advantage, not a +19...obviously my post is intended to be on the ridiculous side to illustrate a point so in the end it does not really matter much, the +1/4 I was refering to was on a TP 20m (25 points, the new MP would be a 21 pool with 2x2f slots

[prestidigitator]

Re: 6th Edition Mega-Scale and Movement

 

This is why more people need to remember / enforce the minimum purchase rules. I generally use 10 points as the minimum purchase.

 

I don't think there's a flaw in the system here per se but I think Minimum Purchase should have more of a "BEEP BEEP LOOK AT ME I'M AN IMPORTANT RULE" thing attached to it.

Hmm. Well, I personally don't think minimum purchases fix the problem. It is better to be able to fly 10m than 2m, so that should be paid for. However, it's a lot better (not minimally better) to be able to fly 1m than not at all. So that should be paid for as well. If you charge the same amount to be able to fly 1m as 10m, then who is going to buy only 1m of Flight? If you allow a Limitation on that "minimum cost", you're essentially returning to the situation of allowing smaller amounts to be purchased. No, minimum costs are an altogether different price model, and don't get nearly close enough to the idea of actually paying for the utility you are getting.

 

Also, you should be able to pay less than "the minimum" for limitations that really do affect the minimum functionality of Flight. For example, only being able to "fly" when in contact with a surface, or only being able to glide, are things that will effect even that first 1m of Flight to a degree that they should be worth some savings. A surcharge for being able to fly or teleport at all (or, equivalently, a much higher cost for that first 1m of Movement with either mode) would solve both problems.

[Fireg0lem]

Re: 6th Edition Mega-Scale and Movement

 

The minimum purchase is before limitations. You can do something like 10m of flight, Only To Hover if you want.

 

You could, I suppose, do a little bit better, but there will always be some amount of flight that you never purchase, or you will have to increase the cost of even large amounts of flight (if 10m of flight costs 10, and 1m of flight costs 2 or more, there's some place where +1m of flight is free).

 

I can see it being a reasonable position that Flight (and other nonstandard movements) should be something like 5 points for 1m, +1 point per extra meter, though. Personally, I am happy with minimum purchase, which also solves other problems at the same time.

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: 6th Edition Mega-Scale and Movement

 

Actualy that is what I was saying' date=' I had figured it out as if it was a +20 advantage, not a +19...obviously my post is intended to be on the ridiculous side to illustrate a point so in the end it does not really matter much, the +1/4 I was refering to was on a TP 20m (25 points, the new MP would be a 21 pool with 2x2f slots[/quote']

 

You do realize that a 19 point power in a fixed slot rounds to the same 2 points that a 20 point power would, right? Or am I completely missing what your trying to say?

[Matt Holck]

Move into a Multipower

 

Move into a Multipower

 

A good level to set that multipower at is 15 points

because those ultimate slots costing 15 points/10 rounding from 1.5 to l.

At one point per ultimate 15 point slot the character is getting the most points out of its multipower per point spent.

 

for example

 

15 Point Movement Multipower

1u +15 m running

1u 15 m flight

1u +30 m leap

1u 10 m teleport with 2 levels megascale

[JmOz]

Re: 6th Edition Mega-Scale and Movement

 

You do realize that a 19 point power in a fixed slot rounds to the same 2 points that a 20 point power would' date=' right? Or am I completely missing what your trying to say? [/quote']

 

What I was saying is that when I calculated the advantage I made a mistake, and what I actualy calculated to was a +20 advantage, instead of the +19 advantage I was aiming for

[red_eagle123]

Re: 6th Edition Mega-Scale and Movement

 

Here's the problem I'm having with Megascale and Movement. One of my players is playing a fairly standard flying energy projector (Special effect: Wind Control). Because my campaign is a slightly bumped up Teen Champions game, the active point limits is fairly low comparatively (I'm limiting them to 50 active points).

This player has a SPD of 4

He currently has a flight power of 20m, which is his standard combat movement power. We figured out that 20m combat flight translates to ~15 mph combat speed, or ~30mph noncombat speed.

 

20m * 4 (spd) = 80m / turn

80 * 5 (turns/minute) = 400m / minute

400 * 60 (minutes/hour) = 24000 m / hour

24000 / 1609 (m / mile) = 14.9 mph.

 

Now he's talking about wanting to buy a movement power that he can use to get around a bit faster when he needs to. He was looking in the, ideally, 200-400 mph range. This is for getting him to/from combat. So we looked at megascaled flight. 1m flight, megascale (1m = 1km) costs him 2 points. For those two points, he winds up going 1200 km / hour or approximately 745 mph.

 

1 * 4 (spd) = 4

4 * 5 (turns/minute) = 20 km/m

20 * 60 = 1200 km/hour

 

 

There's no grainularity with megascale. That's the rock bottom he can get. Given that this is supposed to be a somewhat lower powered game, he (and I) have a hard time justifying this 18 year old suddenly going from 28 mph to suddenly flying faster than the A10 Thunderbolt II (aka: Warthog, flying speed 350 mph) or faster than the average speed of your standard passenger plane (500 mph). It just seems a bit much.

 

To get the flight speed in the area he's looking at, he'd have to buy more than 200m of basic flight (& fly in at non-combat speeds) if my caculations are correct. That's an awful lot of movement to have to purchase for this player.

 

For now we'll just work around it, but this is an example of the problem I have with megascale. It'd be nice if you could go the other way, instead of the bottom being 1m = 1km, you could start doubling up on the m side... for instance 2m = 1km, 5m = 1km etc. Ah well....

[prestidigitator]

Re: 6th Edition Mega-Scale and Movement

 

You CAN use smaller scaling factors; they just cost the same. I agree it would be nice to have some finer-tuned cost values though.

[JmOz]

Re: 6th Edition Mega-Scale and Movement

 

Ah' date=' back to my old qualm about the utility of different modes of Movement. It's pretty darn potent to be able to fly or teleport AT ALL (flight introduces the third dimension and often allows very easy avoidance of so many obstacles; teleportation lets you get through walls and escape Grabs and Entangles with utter ease...). We should really have a much higher buy-in than what it costs to simply be able to move a single meter with one of those modes. My feeling is that you should pay a base amount for a new mode of Movement (one that isn't an Everyman ability) and [i']then[/i] pay for the amount you can actually move using that mode. Maybe 10 points for Flight and Teleportation, and 5 points for Swinging and Tunneling; EDM and FTL Travel are already built using such a cost structure, so they don't need fixing.

 

Everyone should have swinging 1m free

[Hyper-Man]

Re: 6th Edition Mega-Scale and Movement

 

Here's the problem I'm having with Megascale and Movement. One of my players is playing a fairly standard flying energy projector (Special effect: Wind Control). Because my campaign is a slightly bumped up Teen Champions game, the active point limits is fairly low comparatively (I'm limiting them to 50 active points).

This player has a SPD of 4

He currently has a flight power of 20m, which is his standard combat movement power. We figured out that 20m combat flight translates to ~15 mph combat speed, or ~30mph noncombat speed.

 

20m * 4 (spd) = 80m / turn

80 * 5 (turns/minute) = 400m / minute

400 * 60 (minutes/hour) = 24000 m / hour

24000 / 1609 (m / mile) = 14.9 mph.

 

Now he's talking about wanting to buy a movement power that he can use to get around a bit faster when he needs to. He was looking in the, ideally, 200-400 mph range. This is for getting him to/from combat. So we looked at megascaled flight. 1m flight, megascale (1m = 1km) costs him 2 points. For those two points, he winds up going 1200 km / hour or approximately 745 mph.

 

1 * 4 (spd) = 4

4 * 5 (turns/minute) = 20 km/m

20 * 60 = 1200 km/hour

 

 

There's no grainularity with megascale. That's the rock bottom he can get. Given that this is supposed to be a somewhat lower powered game, he (and I) have a hard time justifying this 18 year old suddenly going from 28 mph to suddenly flying faster than the A10 Thunderbolt II (aka: Warthog, flying speed 350 mph) or faster than the average speed of your standard passenger plane (500 mph). It just seems a bit much.

 

To get the flight speed in the area he's looking at, he'd have to buy more than 200m of basic flight (& fly in at non-combat speeds) if my caculations are correct. That's an awful lot of movement to have to purchase for this player.

 

For now we'll just work around it, but this is an example of the problem I have with megascale. It'd be nice if you could go the other way, instead of the bottom being 1m = 1km, you could start doubling up on the m side... for instance 2m = 1km, 5m = 1km etc. Ah well....

 

Another solution would be to avoid Megascale altogether and just use the default non-combat multiples:

 

20 Flight: Multipower, 20-point reserve - END=

2f 1) Combat Movement: Flight 20m (20 Active Points) - END=2

2f 2) Non-Combat Movement: Flight 5m, x16 Noncombat (20 Active Points) - END=2

 

slot 2 works out to about 120mph for a SPD 4 character.

[Jhamin]

Re: 6th Edition Mega-Scale and Movement

 

Another solution would be to avoid Megascale altogether and just use the default non-combat multiples:

 

20 Flight: Multipower, 20-point reserve - END=

2f 1) Combat Movement: Flight 20m (20 Active Points) - END=2

2f 2) Non-Combat Movement: Flight 5m, x16 Noncombat (20 Active Points) - END=2

 

slot 2 works out to about 120mph for a SPD 4 character.

 

This feels like the better solution to me as well. I see Megascale as being more of a way of crossing continental distances in 1 phase rather than crossing town in 60 seconds.

 

Not that you can't use Megascale that way, this is Hero after all. It just doesn't generate the best results.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: 6th Edition Mega-Scale and Movement

 

I think Hugh got it right that Megascale is really more of a plot device than a power that needs to be examined under a microscope (which is why it is so cheap as an Advantage). It allows your hero to get across the country or around the world in what would be a single comic book frame, but it isn't practical to use for more limited travel any more than you would take an airplane to get across town. Consider too that if you are travelling at 1000 kph you can't see anything around you but a blur. Practically speaking you have to slow down around your destination so you don't miss it. If you teleport 1000 km, you first have to be able to figure out where you are going to end up -- even if you have enhanced senses to allow you to do this you still have to locate a point 1000 km away; it isn't like picking out a point on a map. If the disconnect between normal and Megascaled movement bothers your sensibilities as a GM then don't use it, but you have to admit it is handy for some character concepts (I remember some clunky 4e builds to achieve the same thing; Megascale is so much nicer).

[randian]

Re: 6th Edition Mega-Scale and Movement

 

In the Megascale section of the Teleportation power's description, it says you can't Megascale Teleport to a Fixed or Floating Location that's less than your range increment. For example, if your scale is 1m=1km, this implies you can't Teleport to a Fixed or Floating Location that's 500m away from you, even though 6E Megascale rules specifically permit Megamovement at less than full scale. That is, you can Megateleport 500m no matter what scale of Megateleport you've bought, but you can't Megateleport to a Fixed or Floating Location 500m away from you. Bizarre. This would be entirely consistent with 5E Megascale, but in 6E this seems like errata.

[JmOz]

Re: 6th Edition Mega-Scale and Movement

 

Sad thing about the lower leves is now with the bump in cost it would be reasonable to have said detail

 

+1/2 1m=10m

+3/4 1m=100m

+1 1m=1km

etc...

-1/4 if you can not change scale

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6th Edition Mega-Scale and Movement

 

Sad thing about the lower leves is now with the bump in cost it would be reasonable to have said detail

 

+1/2 1m=10m

+3/4 1m=100m

+1 1m=1km

etc...

-1/4 if you can not change scale

 

For +1/4 to multiply your movement by 10 (even without the ability to scale), tactical movement gets a lot bigger for a low price. I can always get within 5 meters close in if I move in blocks of 10 meters. 320 meters of Flight seems a lot more powerful than 40 meters, even if I must move in 10 meter increments.

 

To me, megascale exists as a plot device, and should only cover non-combat distances.

[JmOz]

Re: 6th Edition Mega-Scale and Movement

 

I would assume you would still have the penalties of NCM at any level above 1m=1m

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6th Edition Mega-Scale and Movement

 

I would assume you would still have the penalties of NCM at any level above 1m=1m

 

True. However, being able to cover the whole combat field in a single 0 DCV move (is it 0 or 1/2 DCV?), in which you likely would not attack, seems a pretty powerful ability. This is especially so when one considers the character can also plan for this being a semi-regular occurence and buy one or more defensive powers, say in an attacks multipower, to be used in that phase of "no attacks/low DCV". Toss in 60 AP of defenses, or 20 Defenses and Desolid, as a slot in that 60 AP attacks multipower, and having 0 DCV becomes considerably less scary.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: 6th Edition Mega-Scale and Movement

 

Very specialized and uncommon' date=' but doesn't Change Environment have an option to reduce movement by 1"/2 meters? I don't have the books with me, so I could be misrecalling.[/quote']It's not quite that uncommon; and there's also Adjustment Powers. The original-post character with 1m Teleportation, MegaScaled at 1m = 10,000m, only needs to be Drained of 3 points to be held down. The one with 10m Teleportation, MegaScaled at 1m = 1,000m, needs to be drained of 27 points. That's a 9:1 advantage, and nearly every supers campaign has someone somewhere who can do the former (with 1d6 at Standard Effect) but would be challenged to do the latter (with 9d6 at Standard Effect).

[prestidigitator]

Re: 6th Edition Mega-Scale and Movement

 

...being able to cover the whole combat field in a single 0 dcv move (is it 0 or 1/2 dcv?)' date=' in which you likely would not attack, seems a pretty powerful ability.[/quote']

0 ocv, 1/2 dcv.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6th Edition Mega-Scale and Movement

 

Thanks - with half DCV, you can mitigate by placing relevant levels in DCV, and even using a half move and using your remaining half phase to Dodge.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: 6th Edition Mega-Scale and Movement

 

It's not quite that uncommon; and there's also Adjustment Powers. The original-post character with 1m Teleportation' date=' MegaScaled at 1m = 10,000m, only needs to be Drained of 3 points to be held down. The one with 10m Teleportation, MegaScaled at 1m = 1,000m, needs to be drained of 27 points. That's a 9:1 advantage, and nearly every supers campaign has someone [i']somewhere[/i] who can do the former (with 1d6 at Standard Effect) but would be challenged to do the latter (with 9d6 at Standard Effect).

 

That is a good point, and a compelling reason to buy more than 1m T-port Megascaled. Of course from a plot standpoint it would be very convenient for the GM to be able to so easily remove the teleporter's long distance movement, so maybe we don't want to encourage that too much...

[randian]

Re: 6th Edition Mega-Scale and Movement

 

So, was that section I noted about teleport and fixed locations in error?

[BobGreenwade]

Re: 6th Edition Mega-Scale and Movement

 

So' date=' was that section I noted about teleport and fixed locations in error?[/quote']It's hard to say. Ask Steve in the Q&A Forum.