Superhero Glider Cape

[Ninja-Bear]

I never really thought of this until my little girl knocked off Dark Adder (Crusader 4th e) from a 5 story building, his cape is defined as gliding, 9 inches. Now as bought, its a straight gliding power, which means he can go up (gm willing) or down. Now I envision a cape such as this as being limited to slow fall descent. Now the only source I have which does put a limit on gliding, such as parachutes, have two different limitations. First is a -(1/2) only to combat descent speed, and the second was limited gliding, (-1) can only go 1" forward by dropping 1" down. So, I'm asking how do you define a spuperhero (like Batman) cape, and how much of a limitation for gliding.

 

As always, Thanks in advance.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Superhero Glider Cape

 

6e gets rid of Gliding as a distinct power. It's now just a form of Limited Flight.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Superhero Glider Cape

 

6e gets rid of Gliding as a distinct power. It's now just a form of Limited Flight.

 

I knew I should've qualified this question with 5th edition rules.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Superhero Glider Cape

 

The concept is still valid in 5e since Gliding, Leaping and Swinging all function and are priced as some form of Limited Flight. As with Combat Luck (which is just a Limited Armor build), adding additional Limitations to these 'Talent-like' constructions ends up skewing the final active and real costs by essentially applying Limitations twice.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Superhero Glider Cape

 

You can always add a stall speed. I believe it's only described in the Vehicle section, but I see absolutely no reason you can't apply it to any purchase of Flight.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Superhero Glider Cape

 

You can always add a stall speed. I believe it's only described in the Vehicle section' date=' but I see absolutely no reason you can't apply it to any purchase of Flight.[/quote']

Stall though as a limitation I believe means that that is the minimum amount of flight you must use or else you start to fall. Not quite the limitation I'm looking for.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Superhero Glider Cape

 

The concept is still valid in 5e since Gliding' date=' Leaping and Swinging all function and are priced as some form of Limited Flight. [/quote']

 

I looked, and no they weren't. The costs were based on one unit of movement costs per 1 inch, and the costs had no minimums as in previous editions. Flight was always priced more, because of course flight is more versitle than the other modes of transport mentioned. However, I'm looking at the (-1/4) limitation for gliding.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Superhero Glider Cape

 

I looked' date=' and no they weren't. The costs were based on one unit of movement costs per 1 inch, and the costs had no minimums as in previous editions. Flight was always priced more, because of course flight is more versitle than the other modes of transport mentioned. However, I'm looking at the (-1/4) limitation for gliding.[/quote']

 

Whatever, I'm just trying to help.

[薔薇語]

Re: Superhero Glider Cape

 

I looked' date=' and no they weren't. The costs were based on one unit of movement costs per 1 inch, and the costs had no minimums as in previous editions. Flight was always priced more, because of course flight is more versitle than the other modes of transport mentioned. However, I'm looking at the (-1/4) limitation for gliding.[/quote']

 

I think the point HM was getting to was that you can in essence mimic all normal (not EDM/Tele) non-flight movement powers in 5th (and 6th) ed by taking flight and applying a variety of different modifiers. The final product of such process is a power that will cost (real points) the same as what is written in the book for equal payout (distance, effect, etc). BUT in doing so, you just run into the problem of "active points" because Flight is the most expensive movement power. Thus, the cost of a +1/2 MOD / -1/2 MOD on 10run and 10flight modeled to be Run is different and thus has distinct effects on outcome. Given that problem and the issue of complexity & absolute accuracy VS streamline and intuitive was fought with the winner being the latter. Thus a reason to have "run" and not "Run mimicking flight."

 

That said, I'm not 100% what your question is. If you just want the character to fall straight down smoothly, then just by a 1" flight power that says "only to counter velocity of falling." As 1" of flight can effectively cancel all effects of falling (baring some strange technical rule I am not aware of), all you do is decree that said 1" of flight is only canceling the velocity but you still fall at a minimum of "X" rate where X can be any arbitrary amount (I'd choose the value of 1 (first) segment's worth of falling - I forget what that value is but IIRC, it isn't enough to cause damage).

 

La Rose.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Superhero Glider Cape

 

The first segment's falling results in a velocity of 5", which can cause 5d6 on impact. Whether that's enough to cause damage depends on defenses.

 

I think the real question, as La Rose notes, is what exactly the desired effect is. It's pretty tough to build a power to precisely accomplish an unknown result. Should the glider cape prevent all falling damage? Should it limit the damage to a specific amount? Should it reduce it by a specific amount? It seems these threads always come back to the basic Hero premise of "Reason from Effect". What effect, exactly, are you looking for? You say you "envision a cape such as this as being limited to slow fall descent", but what is the actual impact in game terms?

 

If we're talking about Batman grabbing the corners of his cloak to slow a fall, I don't think that's ever been shown to markedly reduce falling damage, just buy him a bit of time, so maybe it provides a six SPD character with 4 inches of flight only to reduce falling velocity. Halve that for moving upward and he accelerates at 4/segment instead of 5 per segment. Adjust to compensate for actual SPD and actual desired acceleration. He'll still reach terminal velocity if he falls fast enough.

 

La Rose has a good construct if you want to cap how fast he could fall. At the other extreme, he always falls a bit slower, you could either have Flight limited to only reduce falling velocity to, say, 25", or have extra defenses only vs falling damage. It could also just grant a bonus to the breakfall roll to reduce falling damage.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Superhero Glider Cape

 

La Rose I undrstand what HM was trying to say. I disagree on how he came to his conclusion. Plus instead of just saying he I think for what you want it should be worth a -0 limitation, he described how the other forms of movement is really just limitated flight, which nothing in editions 2-5 supports. That is what I'm saying. Now I do understand that Steve did fold gliding into flight for 6th ed, and that's fine if I was using 6th, but I'm not. One has to pay attention to what edition you are using because although most things are similar, there are a few qurks in each addition, such as extra limbs in 2nd edition gives a free bonus to to OCV to hit, for example.

 

Now to what I'm looking at, think Dark Championsish where most characters are "normal" humans. Again, a 5 story fall only does 10d6 normal damage. at 15 pd you'll have to roll at minimum, (6) sixes and (4) twos to to get a 16 body. That seems alittle too nerfed. No looking at the optional velocity damage you would roll 16D6, not too bad.

 

Now as a "glider" cape, I am looking at the cape to slow down the character to perhaps 3" velocity per story. So for short falls he is slowed down, but from a skyscrapper, he is still human. Now I am using gliding, because that is the power that is the closest for what is described.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Superhero Glider Cape

 

How about the Breakfall skill bought through a Focus? The actual speed difference would be SFX.

[Escafarc]

Re: Superhero Glider Cape

 

How about the Breakfall skill bought through a Focus? The actual speed difference would be SFX.

 

or Leaping only to counter Falling.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Superhero Glider Cape

 

Here's a thought; how much does gliding retard your fall speed? Given that you can't go up, without GM permission, and the mechanics are more about horizontal movement than vertical.

 

Bear in mind that, even in 5th you can still buy a glider cloak as limited flight.

 

Assuming that gliding, whilst not allowing a climb, does allow you to retard your vertical velocity by half your gliding inches (in 6e probably cheaper overall to buy 'unaffected by gravity').

 

Bear in mind also that Hero simplifies gravity - once you are in powered flight it is irrelevant except for climbing and diving.

 

If you fall off a building you may well have 1 to 3 segments of falling before you get a phase, depending on your SPD. Consider a 'trigger' slot for your glider cape as otherwise you'll need to buy a lot more gliding.

 

For Batman I'd probably just buy 10" gliding, trigger (falling 5" or more), which would then stop your fall if you were going to take more than 5d6 damage.

 

Batman's ability to glide is depicted differently from different sources - it could be gliding with no limitation other than focus, or it could be 'Can not move more than 2" a phase horizontally, must fall at least 5" a phase (-1*)'

 

 

 

*To pluck a figure out of the air, so to speak.

[pinecone]

Re: Superhero Glider Cape

 

La Rose I undrstand what HM was trying to say. I disagree on how he came to his conclusion. Plus instead of just saying he I think for what you want it should be worth a -0 limitation, he described how the other forms of movement is really just limitated flight, which nothing in editions 2-5 supports. That is what I'm saying. Now I do understand that Steve did fold gliding into flight for 6th ed, and that's fine if I was using 6th, but I'm not. One has to pay attention to what edition you are using because although most things are similar, there are a few qurks in each addition, such as extra limbs in 2nd edition gives a free bonus to to OCV to hit, for example.

 

Now to what I'm looking at, think Dark Championsish where most characters are "normal" humans. Again, a 5 story fall only does 10d6 normal damage. at 15 pd you'll have to roll at minimum, (6) sixes and (4) twos to to get a 16 body. That seems alittle too nerfed. No looking at the optional velocity damage you would roll 16D6, not too bad.

 

Now as a "glider" cape, I am looking at the cape to slow down the character to perhaps 3" velocity per story. So for short falls he is slowed down, but from a skyscrapper, he is still human. Now I am using gliding, because that is the power that is the closest for what is described.

 

You can buy Superleap: Only to reduce falling damage....if you fall for more V than you can cancell....you take damage.....

[pinecone]

Re: Superhero Glider Cape

 

or Leaping only to counter Falling.

 

I should have read the whole thread...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Superhero Glider Cape

 

I still posit that Leaping, Gliding and Swinging were originally priced as 'limited flight' and as such are essentially constructed and presented in a similar fashion to Combat Luck (a Talent which is derived from Armor/Resistant Defense with Limitations). As with Talents like Combat Luck, adding further Limitations to a build that already uses them is essentially 'double dipping' and ends up unfairly skewing the Real Point total of the ability.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Superhero Glider Cape

 

I still posit that Leaping' date=' Gliding and Swinging were originally priced as 'limited flight' and as such are essentially constructed and presented in a similar fashion to Combat Luck (a Talent which is derived from Armor/Resistant Defense with Limitations). As with Talents like Combat Luck, adding further Limitations to a build that already uses them is essentially 'double dipping' and ends up unfairly skewing the Real Point total of the ability.[/quote']

 

 

Even if the Movement Powers you list did have their cost based on Flight it doesn't change the fact that they are just that, Powers, not Talents. There is no prohibition in 5E against using Limitations on them, nor even a suggestion that it may be unbalancing. The author obviously thought they were fine as separate Powers. Furthermore, if adding Limitations to them is "double-dipping" than wouldn't adding Advantages to them be so also, as you are keeping the AP lower than if you used a modified version of Flight? Yet Leaping even has an Advantage specifically made for it, "Accurate".

 

If we follow your assumption than even a simple build like Leaping with No Non-Combat movement and no other Modifiers should be built as some convoluted form of Limited Flight. That seems rather ridiculous.

 

Also, while I don't own the material, I'm pretty sure there are "official" published examples (such as a parachute and hang glider) of Gliding with Limitations. Yes, I know some of the officially published builds actually break the rules (especially for super powers involving time travel/manipulation and such), but I see nothing in the RAW to suggest that Limiting Gliding (or Leaping, or Swinging) is somehow unscrupulous or munchkiny, let alone illegal or even warned against.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Superhero Glider Cape

 

I still posit that Leaping' date=' Gliding and Swinging were originally priced as 'limited flight' and as such are essentially constructed and presented in a similar fashion to Combat Luck (a Talent which is derived from Armor/Resistant Defense with Limitations). As with Talents like Combat Luck, adding further Limitations to a build that already uses them is essentially 'double dipping' and ends up unfairly skewing the Real Point total of the ability.[/quote']

 

Whilst that is how they are now presented in 6e, I feel that earlier versions (and gliding and superleap have been around for a LONG time - can't recall if they were in 1e but a long time anyway) were built from the other direction. Gliding MAY have been seen as a limited version of flight but I imagine superleap was seen as a different mode of movement altogether, somewhere between running and flight - and rather than being seen as limitations of a base power, were just seen as somewhat less useful and therefore cheaper.

 

It makes perfect sense to treat gliding as limited flight, and even in 5e you could build gliding as limited flight (although it simply would not be worth it). If we follow that line of reasoning though, all modes of 'standard movement' (i.e. anything that works on buying up movement by the inch/2m) could be combined into a movement metapower that you flavour to taste, and that could easily include stretching too.

 

It would be nice tot hink that, back in the day, they had it all worked out , but I think it more likely that the prices of different but similar movement powers were based more on cost comparision than talent-type builds. there's certainly nothing wrong, by strict rules or any sort of moral standpoint, with adding modifiers to 5e gliding. Hell, virtually evey time it appeared in official material it used a focus.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Superhero Glider Cape

 

Whatever' date=' I'm just trying to help.[/quote']

 

Sorry, I came across nasty. All I asked for a limitation value for gliding.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Superhero Glider Cape

 

Even if the Movement Powers you list did have their cost based on Flight it doesn't change the fact that they are just that' date=' Powers, not Talents. There is no prohibition in 5E against using Limitations on them, nor even a suggestion that it may be unbalancing. The author obviously thought they were fine as separate Powers. Furthermore, if adding Limitations to them is "double-dipping" than wouldn't adding Advantages to them be so also, as you are keeping the AP lower than if you used a modified version of Flight? Yet Leaping even has an Advantage specifically made for it, "Accurate". [/font']

 

If we follow your assumption than even a simple build like Leaping with No Non-Combat movement and no other Modifiers should be built as some convoluted form of Limited Flight. That seems rather ridiculous.

 

Also, while I don't own the material, I'm pretty sure there are "official" published examples (such as a parachute and hang glider) of Gliding with Limitations. Yes, I know some of the officially published builds actually break the rules (especially for super powers involving time travel/manipulation and such), but I see nothing in the RAW to suggest that Limiting Gliding (or Leaping, or Swinging) is somehow unscrupulous or munchkiny, let alone illegal or even warned against.

I was using gliding as a seperate power becasue it is a seperate power. Isn't there a rule in 5th where you are supposed to use the mechcanic which is as close to the power build as possible?

 

FWI, I noticed in UMA 5th, under ninja equipment, the kasha (pulley-and-rope device) is suggested as being bought as a limited form of swinging or gliding. Though no value is given.

 

And btw Gliding is 0 end for free, while flight costs end.

 

And I have thought about buying breakfall with cape. But for one thing, I hate buying skills unless I have too. And again, I'm trying to use the approriate power.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Superhero Glider Cape

 

And btw Gliding is 0 end for free' date=' while flight costs end.[/quote']

An interesting note is that in 6E, the Flight power itself has actually been enhanced (without its price increasing, BTW). You can now use Flight as "Gliding" for 0 End without any sort of Advantage or anything. To buy "pure" Gliding you apply a Limitation to restrict you to only using your Flight in that way.

 

And I have thought about buying breakfall with cape. But for one thing' date=' I hate buying skills unless I have too. And again, I'm trying to use the approriate power.[/quote']

Ah. Okay. I'm the opposite: I like to encourage use of Skills even in superheroic games, and I don't like to replace Skills with Powers unless it really needs to be a "super-skill" that functions in a way the Skill itself cannot. But everyone's tastes are likely to differ there, of course.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Superhero Glider Cape

 

An interesting note is that in 6E' date=' the Flight power itself has actually been enhanced (without its price increasing, BTW). You can now [i']use[/i] Flight as "Gliding" for 0 End without any sort of Advantage or anything. To buy "pure" Gliding you apply a Limitation to restrict you to only using your Flight in that way.

 

This is true, but it feels like a retroengineered kludge, there simply because of the fact we are so used to gliding costing no END that building it from actual flight would upset too many people. Actually it is a double kludge because the rules for gliding if you have flight and gliding if you buy flight as gliding only (for -1) are different.

 

Either we shouldn't have gone there or there were better ways of getting there. I've always felt that the Hero system should be about the method, and that you can build it from principles. It is unfortunate that this exception was crowbarred in.

 

 

Ah. Okay. I'm the opposite: I like to encourage use of Skills even in superheroic games' date=' and I don't like to replace Skills with Powers unless it really [i']needs[/i] to be a "super-skill" that functions in a way the Skill itself cannot. But everyone's tastes are likely to differ there, of course.

 

I don't feel strongly about it , but I tend to Ninja-bear's POV: for example, a glider cape that gave you (limited) Breakfall if fine and dandy BUT Breakfall doesn't allow you to move horizontally at all, and has a really freaky mechanic that relates the roll penalty to the distance fallen rather than the velocity. Moreover it is all/half/nothing. I just don't think superskills work well for a lot of situations where I've seen them used, but I've also seen them used where they are the best fit.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Superhero Glider Cape

 

I am thinking that gliding and flight do bring their complications. What about a teleport, activated (need to grab cape), only to get to ground/level surface, takes time, visible (people would be able to take pot shots while drifting down).

 

 

Doc

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Superhero Glider Cape

 

[/font]

I was using gliding as a seperate power becasue it is a seperate power. Isn't there a rule in 5th where you are supposed to use the mechcanic which is as close to the power build as possible?

And btw Gliding is 0 end for free, while flight costs end.

Um, yeah, I know all that. I'm on your side, saying you should use gliding, not flight. All my comments were aimed at those saying you shouldn't use gliding, so not sure what you are trying to clarify to me.