My thief can't hit a firbolg?

[knightwriter]

So I'm playing a fantasy hero game and I have a thief with 175 point build. He has a strength of 10 and uses daggers to throw and stab, as well as a light longbow.

 

The group has come across a firbold in an underground lair. The pd of the firbolg is 15 meaning that even if the theif hits with any weapons or punches, he's still not going to do any damage. Am I doing this right?

 

So far the group has changed up tactics a bit and has the theif sneaking behind the firbolg and kneeling down so that the fighter can push him over, thereby lower the firbolgs dc for the rest of the party.

 

Any advice/suggestions on if this is correct is appreciated.

[knightwriter]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

I guess, to clarify this a bit, my thief can hit the firbolg, but he isn't going to do any damage. Is this right? If so, what have you guys done to counter this problem?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

All tactics. Consider:

 

* See if the firbolg has a weak spot on it somewhere.

* Sneaking around is good. Does the thief (or anyone else) have a rope or net they can ensnare it with?

* Coordinate attacks.

* Hit it from surprise.

* Called shots

 

Also: with your thief's normal weapons he might not do enough BODY to get through the firbolg's rPD, but might easily do enough STUN, especially if using the Hit Location rules.

[AirborneRob]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

I guess' date=' to clarify this a bit, my thief can [i']hit[/i] the firbolg, but he isn't going to do any damage. Is this right? If so, what have you guys done to counter this problem?

 

If i were to build a Thief, i may have went with a handful of special attack options. I think between his Dagger and STR, his HKA should be sitting at around 1d6+1. Now if you give your Thief an attack like backstab or call it Sneak Attack and then add some CSL's to increase the damage done and limit it to Only when attacking from behind. Keep in mind that there are people on the boards with more know how regarding building something than I. If it were me though, i would build it as Sneak Attack, Armor Piercing (find the sweet spot), +6 CSL's (only to apply damage), only when attacking from behind. That gives you an HKA now of 2d6+1 if my math is right and the 15 PD drops to a 7 if the GM is kind If i did this right, you will have much better potential damage.

[knightwriter]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

I like this idea. For some reason, **slapping forehead***, I didn't think to create a sneak attack ability for him. I guess I was thinking of using stealth rolls for the ability to sneak behind and sneak up upon.

[AirborneRob]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

I like this idea. For some reason' date=' **slapping forehead***, I didn't think to create a sneak attack ability for him. I guess I was thinking of using stealth rolls for the ability to sneak behind and sneak up upon.[/quote']

 

Lol, im no expert with HERO but i like to try and help folks when i can Maneuvers you create like a Sneak Attack fits the concept of the character and should allow more effectivness than if you were to stand next to the warrior and trade blows with the Firbold. Remember that CSL's allow for a variety of options for different classes/concepts

[knightwriter]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

What would the "only when attacking from behind" limitation be called in the rulebooks? Or, what limitation does this characterize?

[AirborneRob]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

I think the Limited Power Limitation would be applicable. Maybe Limited Power: Power only works when attacking from behind -1.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

I like this idea. For some reason' date=' **slapping forehead***, I didn't think to create a sneak attack ability for him. I guess I was thinking of using stealth rolls for the ability to sneak behind and sneak up upon.[/quote']

 

The Deadly Blow talent was created for exactly this purpose.

[AirborneRob]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

The Deadly Blow talent was created for exactly this purpose.

 

You're right, completely forgot about that ability. Sneak Attack is one of the options under Deadly Blow but seems a little pricey though. Wouldn't the 6 CSL's do the same thing and save on a few points? I think it costs 12 points for 6 CSL's with the sneak attack as i built it. I figured sneak attack would be considered a single attack type and would save him 4 points in the process.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

There's also the question of how much resistant defense the firbolg has. If he only has a couple of points of resistant, you'll still have a decent chance of dealing Body damage to him, and thus, hopefully, kill him before he kills you.

[Ternaugh]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

If i were to build a Thief' date=' i may have went with a handful of special attack options. I think between his Dagger and STR, his HKA should be sitting at around 1d6+1. Now if you give your Thief an attack like backstab or call it [i']Sneak Attack [/i]and then add some CSL's to increase the damage done and limit it to Only when attacking from behind. Keep in mind that there are people on the boards with more know how regarding building something than I. If it were me though, i would build it as Sneak Attack, Armor Piercing (find the sweet spot), +6 CSL's (only to apply damage), only when attacking from behind. That gives you an HKA now of 2d6+1 if my math is right and the 15 PD drops to a 7 if the GM is kind If i did this right, you will have much better potential damage.

 

Normally, you can only double the damage with STR and skill levels in Heroic games that use the STR Min and/or Real Weapon rules (see 6e2 199 for STR Min and 6e2 200 for Real Weapon). So, a 1d6-1 (DC 2) dagger would normally max out at 1 1/2 d6 (DC 4).

 

You're right' date=' completely forgot about that ability. Sneak Attack is one of the options under Deadly Blow but seems a little pricey though. Wouldn't the 6 CSL's do the same thing and save on a few points? I think it costs 12 points for 6 CSL's with the sneak attack as i built it. I figured sneak attack would be considered a single attack type and would save him 4 points in the process.[/quote']

 

I'd probably let a character who bought the full-cost Deadly Blow (Assassin's Touch or Sneak Attack) to add on top of the maximum with a dagger, as I think that it fits the spirit of what the Talent's trying to duplicate. Our dagger strike with Assassin's Touch or Sneak Attack would then max out at 2d6+1 (DC 7). To get the AP, use a Stiletto, which would max out at 2d6-1 (DC 7) (or you could build it as a naked Advantage, though that would be more work).

 

JoeG

[Legendsmiths]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

Thief STR 10 w/ Dagger = 1d6+1K. I'll assume OCV 5

 

Firbolg: 15 PD (6 rPD), DCV 5 (+2 OCV to others due to size to hit)

 

Thief tactics (no talents): Stealth into position (vs. PER 12-) and

 

Option 1: "The Drop"

Here the Firbolg isn't expecting an attack and is "out of combat".

This means... 1/2 DCV, 1/2 Hit Location Penalties, x2 STUN.

So... OCV 5 vs. DCV 5/2 = DCV 3; Thief is +2 OCV due to size of target so... OCV 7 vs. DCV 3 = 15- to hit. Worth is to go for the Head or Vitals (now only -4 OCV = 11- to hit), but equally worth it is to go for Stomach (now only -3 OCV since rounds in your favor = 12- to hit for a little more surety). Since STUNx is before armor, you will be doing x10 STUN to the head and x8 STUN to the stomach. Averaging 4.5 BODY (which won't pen rPD) you will still do 45 STUN or 36 STUN respectively, which is almost enough to Stun the Firbolg (45 - 15 PD = 30 and with a 30 CON you'd need to do 1 more point of STUN to Stun him).

 

Option 2: "The Assist"

Coordinate with a Fighter's attack from Surprise (via Stealth).

This means... 1/2 DCV and your STUN damage that gets through armor will add to the Fighter's for purposes of Stunning. That means:

Stunned = 1/2 DCV, 1/2 Hit Locations (see above)

 

All in all that is still going to be a tough fight.

 

Now, as for talents Sneak Attack is an obvious choice at 16 points for +3 DC (taking you to 2d6+1K). Flexible GMs can allow the purchase of single DCs. My pref is to not allow more than +2 DC (for 10 points) just to keep the damage in my games in line. If you had that, "The Drop" would end up doing another 35 STUN (head) or 28 STUN (stomach), in which case you would definitely Stun the Firbolg and in the case of the head hit KO. Plus, you would actually do BODY, but not enough to kill (4 in the case of the Head).

 

Why is that a good deal on damage? Well, it really only is in a heroic game and then if you have restrictions on skill levels/OCV. To get +3 DC from skill levels (which is how the talent is built/based), you'd need 6 skill levels. These can't be 2 pt levels either, they have to be 3 or more. In this case it applies to all attacks made from surprise - flexible GMs might allow you to restrict it to "light weapons" or "thief weapons" or some such to make it cheaper. Regardless, few GMs are going to allow a character to buy 6 skill levels in a 175pt game... that would allow your OCV to be 14 if you bought your base up to 8 and that doesn't include maneuvers.

 

I am pretty tight on how many skill levels I allow, but I always allow additional restricted/limited levels. PSLs vs targeting/range, CSLs for damage only (like Deadly Blow) as they don't upset (terribly) the balance of the game as much as raw OCV modification.

 

Fighters are built to do lots of damage all the time. Rogues, when built for combat, are more focused and can only do damage in limited circumstances.

 

Other options: draw his attention. Rogues usually have high DCV. A successful PRE attack is often enough to get him to attack you, and then you can either abort to a Dodge or Dive for Cover. If he's busy missing you, he can't hit the fighter.

 

Your idea to knock him down is good too - Trip as a maneuver can be very effective in that case. You use your attack to get him down (since you can't hurt him directly) and then your fighters can more easily do a called shot (since he will be 3 DCV and they will get +2 OCV due to size).

 

Good luck.

[AirborneRob]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

Normally, you can only double the damage with STR and skill levels in Heroic games that use the STR Min and/or Real Weapon rules (see 6e2 199 for STR Min and 6e2 200 for Real Weapon). So, a 1d6-1 (DC 2) dagger would normally max out at 1 1/2 d6 (DC 4).

 

 

 

I'd probably let a character who bought the full-cost Deadly Blow (Assassin's Touch or Sneak Attack) to add on top of the maximum with a dagger, as I think that it fits the spirit of what the Talent's trying to duplicate. Our dagger strike with Assassin's Touch or Sneak Attack would then max out at 2d6+1 (DC 7). To get the AP, use a Stiletto, which would max out at 2d6-1 (DC 7) (or you could build it as a naked Advantage, though that would be more work).

 

JoeG

 

As i understand how STR reacts with KA damage, yea, if you have a 10 STR in effect you can only add 2 DC's to the damage and only if it doesnt more than double the base KA damage. I thought skill levels were there to add damage above what the KA w/STR gives you. I have not had the opportunity as yet to play in a Heroic setting but i thought that your weapons were supposed to be real ones with the STR min.

[AirborneRob]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

Thief STR 10 w/ Dagger = 1d6+1K. I'll assume OCV 5

 

Firbolg: 15 PD (6 rPD), DCV 5 (+2 OCV to others due to size to hit)

 

Thief tactics (no talents): Stealth into position (vs. PER 12-) and

 

Option 1: "The Drop"

Here the Firbolg isn't expecting an attack and is "out of combat".

This means... 1/2 DCV, 1/2 Hit Location Penalties, x2 STUN.

So... OCV 5 vs. DCV 5/2 = DCV 3; Thief is +2 OCV due to size of target so... OCV 7 vs. DCV 3 = 15- to hit. Worth is to go for the Head or Vitals (now only -4 OCV = 11- to hit), but equally worth it is to go for Stomach (now only -3 OCV since rounds in your favor = 12- to hit for a little more surety). Since STUNx is before armor, you will be doing x10 STUN to the head and x8 STUN to the stomach. Averaging 4.5 BODY (which won't pen rPD) you will still do 45 STUN or 36 STUN respectively, which is almost enough to Stun the Firbolg (45 - 15 PD = 30 and with a 30 CON you'd need to do 1 more point of STUN to Stun him).

 

Option 2: "The Assist"

Coordinate with a Fighter's attack from Surprise (via Stealth).

This means... 1/2 DCV and your STUN damage that gets through armor will add to the Fighter's for purposes of Stunning. That means:

Stunned = 1/2 DCV, 1/2 Hit Locations (see above)

 

All in all that is still going to be a tough fight.

 

Now, as for talents Sneak Attack is an obvious choice at 16 points for +3 DC (taking you to 2d6+1K). Flexible GMs can allow the purchase of single DCs. My pref is to not allow more than +2 DC (for 10 points) just to keep the damage in my games in line. If you had that, "The Drop" would end up doing another 35 STUN (head) or 28 STUN (stomach), in which case you would definitely Stun the Firbolg and in the case of the head hit KO. Plus, you would actually do BODY, but not enough to kill (4 in the case of the Head).

 

Why is that a good deal on damage? Well, it really only is in a heroic game and then if you have restrictions on skill levels/OCV. To get +3 DC from skill levels (which is how the talent is built/based), you'd need 6 skill levels. These can't be 2 pt levels either, they have to be 3 or more. In this case it applies to all attacks made from surprise - flexible GMs might allow you to restrict it to "light weapons" or "thief weapons" or some such to make it cheaper. Regardless, few GMs are going to allow a character to buy 6 skill levels in a 175pt game... that would allow your OCV to be 14 if you bought your base up to 8 and that doesn't include maneuvers.

 

I am pretty tight on how many skill levels I allow, but I always allow additional restricted/limited levels. PSLs vs targeting/range, CSLs for damage only (like Deadly Blow) as they don't upset (terribly) the balance of the game as much as raw OCV modification.

 

Fighters are built to do lots of damage all the time. Rogues, when built for combat, are more focused and can only do damage in limited circumstances.

 

Other options: draw his attention. Rogues usually have high DCV. A successful PRE attack is often enough to get him to attack you, and then you can either abort to a Dodge or Dive for Cover. If he's busy missing you, he can't hit the fighter.

 

Your idea to knock him down is good too - Trip as a maneuver can be very effective in that case. You use your attack to get him down (since you can't hurt him directly) and then your fighters can more easily do a called shot (since he will be 3 DCV and they will get +2 OCV due to size).

 

Good luck.

 

You mentioned the 6 CSL's from one of my posts and i just wanted to point out that i recommended keeping the CSL's as only to add damage. Yea, a blanket +6 CSL's in a Heroic game of 175 pts was not where i was going with that. I agree that it would be bad to have that high a potential OCV

[Ternaugh]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

As i understand how STR reacts with KA damage' date=' yea, if you have a 10 STR in effect you can only add 2 DC's to the damage and only if it doesnt more than double the base KA damage. I thought skill levels were there to add damage above what the KA w/STR gives you. I have not had the opportunity as yet to play in a Heroic setting but i thought that your weapons were supposed to be real ones with the STR min.[/quote']

 

Yes, weapons in Heroic games are usually built with both Real Weapon and STR Min. Both limitations assume that you can at most double the base weapon DC from all sources. So, a dagger (DC 2) can boost to DC 4 through a combination of STR, Skill levels, and combat maneuvers. See 6E2 99 for the Toolkitting sidebar for a full explanation.

 

In 6E, Deadly Blow was rewritten as skill levels, which effectively reduced the possible DCs dramatically. In 5Er, Deadly Blow used to be bought as dice of KA that were added to Base Damage (See 5th ed FH 105), and as such would add +1d6 per level (+3 DC). Since that was Base Damage, it would add directly, and allow doubling from there. So, for example, a Rogue with a dagger (DC 2) and 1 level of Deadly Blow (+DC 3) would have a Base Damage of DC 5, which could be doubled to DC 10 (3d6 +1) if he or she had enough STR, combat maneuvers or skill levels. Deadly Blow was written up as having 3 levels, so the highest form would result in our Rogue's dagger becoming DC 2+DC 9, which could double up to DC 22 (7d6+1), in the (hopefully) rare case of finding enough STR, Skill levels and combat maneuvers to add in.

 

JoeG

[mayapuppies]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

Here's a blunt way to handle sneak attack:

 

Sneak Attack: Deadly Blow: +2d6 (Only Against Surprised Targets)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

Normally' date=' you can only double the damage with STR and skill levels in Heroic games that use the STR Min and/or Real Weapon rules (see 6e2 199 for STR Min and 6e2 200 for Real Weapon). So, a 1d6-1 (DC 2) dagger would normally max out at 1 1/2 d6 (DC 4). [/quote']

 

I note that any restriction in damage added is an optional rule in 6e. The change to using skill levels as the Deadly Blow build arises in part from that change. If the GM chooses to use optional caps to the "adding damage" rules, then I think they need to consider what is, and is not capped. Capping damage from this kind of talent simply requires anyone wanting to do significant damage to use a big weapon- daggers will not be useful in combat against anyone with significant defenses.

 

I would also note that anyone assuming 10 STR adds two damage classes is forgetting that daggers do have a STR minimum. With 1/2d6 Daggers, I suspect our Thief gets 1d6 damage.

 

I'm not sure what the firbolg's resistant PD is - the dagger's BOD damage is only reduced by that amount, so he can do BOD if the firbolg has less than 6 rPD, although the level of rDEF determines likeliness.

 

I'm not sure whether the game in question uses hit locations. If not, then a 1d6 killing attack will rarely get any damage through 15 PD (only a 3 stun multiple and over 3 rolled on the KA will get anything through). With hit locations in use, getting some STUN through will be more common.

 

As the firbolg is in combat, he would never take double STUN, but making an attack from surprise should still enhance OCV and potentially the ability for called shots to attain a higher STUN multiple.

 

Finally, I think it is critical to know the parameters of the game. If the typical character can get 6 to 9 DC's, and the thief has 3 DC's, then he has effectively been designed to have no better than a Supporter role in combat - he won't deal big damage. If the intent is that he have damage capacity on par with the rest of the characters, he needs some special abilities to do so while wielding daggers.

[knightwriter]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

All good points. Thank you very much. Yes, the firbolg does have a pd of 15 and rpd of 6. I'm going to check out the deadly blow talent now.

[AirborneRob]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

Yes, weapons in Heroic games are usually built with both Real Weapon and STR Min. Both limitations assume that you can at most double the base weapon DC from all sources. So, a dagger (DC 2) can boost to DC 4 through a combination of STR, Skill levels, and combat maneuvers. See 6E2 99 for the Toolkitting sidebar for a full explanation.

 

In 6E, Deadly Blow was rewritten as skill levels, which effectively reduced the possible DCs dramatically. In 5Er, Deadly Blow used to be bought as dice of KA that were added to Base Damage (See 5th ed FH 105), and as such would add +1d6 per level (+3 DC). Since that was Base Damage, it would add directly, and allow doubling from there. So, for example, a Rogue with a dagger (DC 2) and 1 level of Deadly Blow (+DC 3) would have a Base Damage of DC 5, which could be doubled to DC 10 (3d6 +1) if he or she had enough STR, combat maneuvers or skill levels. Deadly Blow was written up as having 3 levels, so the highest form would result in our Rogue's dagger becoming DC 2+DC 9, which could double up to DC 22 (7d6+1), in the (hopefully) rare case of finding enough STR, Skill levels and combat maneuvers to add in.

 

JoeG

 

Just to make sure i have it right, between Combat Maneuvers, STR, Skill Levels and Base damage cannot be more than doubled. So a 1/2d6 with all regular factors included can only be a 1d6+1. Now Deadly Blow allows the character to add additional DC's on top of all that if i read your post right. For example if the 1/2d6 has been doubled using skill levels, STR and whatnot to 1d6+1, you can then add 1 level of Deadly Blow to get a final result of 2d6+1. Do i have that right?

[mayapuppies]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

I'm pretty sure that in 6E, the doubling limit is no longer in effect.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

I'm pretty sure that in 6E' date=' the doubling limit is no longer in effect.[/quote']

 

It's not, as a hard limit. It's more of a GM call now.

 

I think the doubling limit was originally there to avoid people buying 40 STR and a 1 pip HKA and ending up doing 3d6. Deadly Blow is costed in such a way as to mostly avoid that.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

It's talked about on 6E2 99. I generally go with can't more than double base damage, but only with respect to STR. Skill, Extra DCs, Maneuvers and such aren't limited in that manner.

 

I also usually house rule that you can still roll the appropriate amount of dice, but you can only max out at the value of double the base. So, a 1/2d6 base damage weapon could only go to 1d6+1K plus other mods. If I had a +2 DC Sneak Attack, and a 20 STR (assuming a STR min of 5 for the weapon), I would roll 2d6+1K but would max out at 12 damage (since my extra 5 STR takes the weapon over its base damage limit). This is fun in that high STR characters are more likely to max out the damage without necessarily doing extra damage. It requires more bookkeeping so it may not be appropriate for all games.

[Nolgroth]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

It's not' date=' as a hard limit. It's more of a GM call now.[/quote']Thank goodness for that.

I think the doubling limit was originally there to avoid people buying 40 STR and a 1 pip HKA and ending up doing 3d6. Deadly Blow is costed in such a way as to mostly avoid that.

I always hated the idea of a special effects driven system like HERO limiting something like DC of a weapon based on "how it looks." Most campaigns have an upper Damage Class limit. All of mine do. As I tell my players, "with enough STR, Martial Arts Maneuvers, and CSLs, you can be deadly with a butter knife." The campaign DC limit should be the only limiting factor to whatever damage a weapon does. Of course, that is just my opinion on things.

[Ternaugh]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

I note that any restriction in damage added is an optional rule in 6e. The change to using skill levels as the Deadly Blow build arises in part from that change. If the GM chooses to use optional caps to the "adding damage" rules, then I think they need to consider what is, and is not capped. Capping damage from this kind of talent simply requires anyone wanting to do significant damage to use a big weapon- daggers will not be useful in combat against anyone with significant defenses.

 

I would also note that anyone assuming 10 STR adds two damage classes is forgetting that daggers do have a STR minimum. With 1/2d6 Daggers, I suspect our Thief gets 1d6 damage.

 

I'm not sure what the firbolg's resistant PD is - the dagger's BOD damage is only reduced by that amount, so he can do BOD if the firbolg has less than 6 rPD, although the level of rDEF determines likeliness.

 

I'm not sure whether the game in question uses hit locations. If not, then a 1d6 killing attack will rarely get any damage through 15 PD (only a 3 stun multiple and over 3 rolled on the KA will get anything through). With hit locations in use, getting some STUN through will be more common.

 

As the firbolg is in combat, he would never take double STUN, but making an attack from surprise should still enhance OCV and potentially the ability for called shots to attain a higher STUN multiple.

 

Finally, I think it is critical to know the parameters of the game. If the typical character can get 6 to 9 DC's, and the thief has 3 DC's, then he has effectively been designed to have no better than a Supporter role in combat - he won't deal big damage. If the intent is that he have damage capacity on par with the rest of the characters, he needs some special abilities to do so while wielding daggers.

 

I'm pretty sure that in 6E' date=' the doubling limit is no longer in effect.[/quote']

 

It's not, as a hard limit. It's more of a GM call now.

 

I think the doubling limit was originally there to avoid people buying 40 STR and a 1 pip HKA and ending up doing 3d6. Deadly Blow is costed in such a way as to mostly avoid that.

 

The short answer to this is that the maximum doubling rules are built into the limitations to STR Min and Real Weapon. So, if a character is using a weapon with either of those, the "optional" rules are in effect. It's primarily a Heroic level thing for physical weapons bought for money, not points.

 

And yes, I agree that it's a GM call. I'd personally probably allow the 6E Deadly Blow to add on top of the maximum for the weapon, as that would emulate the "stealth attack" feel that many want when playing rogues. I could also see allowing for special cases, like a Paladin attacking undead, for example.

 

JoeG