My thief can't hit a firbolg?

[Ternaugh]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

Just to make sure i have it right' date=' between Combat Maneuvers, STR, Skill Levels and Base damage cannot be more than doubled. So a 1/2d6 with all regular factors included can only be a 1d6+1. Now Deadly Blow allows the character to add additional DC's on top of all that if i read your post right. For example if the 1/2d6 has been doubled using skill levels, STR and whatnot to 1d6+1, you can then add 1 level of Deadly Blow to get a final result of 2d6+1. Do i have that right?[/quote']

 

If you're using the 5E Deadly Blow, the dagger would be 1/2d6 +1d6 (1 level Deadly Blow) = 1 1/2d6. That value could then be doubled to 3d6+1 if you had enough from STR, skill levels and maneuvers.

 

If you're using the 6E Deadly Blow as written, it would cap at 1d6+1 (with Deadly Blow counted toward total skill levels).

 

I'd actually let it be added after the doubling (as a house rule), so we'd have 1/2d6 to 1d6+1 with STR, skill levels, and maneuvers, and then to 1 1/2d6 with 1 level of Deadly Blow. If the rogue had 3 levels of Deadly Blow, it would max at 2d6+1 under my house rule.

 

Mudpyr8's method would allow for more of a "critical hit" feel, while still keeping the total damage in check. It's another option that looks like it would work well.

 

JoeG

[Tasha]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

KK first I looked the creature up in 6e Bestiary it's on pg 323. I believe your GM might have made a teensy mistake in running the creature. First the Firbolg has 15PD and 15ED but that is not resistant. It's a pretty easy mistake to make when you are learning to play to not understand the difference. The creature does have 6PD and 6ED bought with the "Resistant" advantage. That means that to do body to the Firbolg you only have to exceed the 6pd with your Dagger. The firbolg will get his 15pd vs the Stun of your attack.

 

I would recommend that you take a look at 6e1 pg 35 at the Character ability Guildlines table. There you will see that the DC will be 3-8 (DC= damage class 1d6Killing attack = DC3). Most GM's will assume an average DC of 6 with that setup (Low speed types might be right at the DC 8 cap).

 

Your character with a STR 10 and a Dagger/Dirk (1d6-1 DC2, Str Min 6 6eFH 190) only does 1d6-1 and doesn't have enough str to boost the weapon to 1d6. (good rule of thumb make sure you have enough str to boost your weapon by 1dc esp if the cost is 1-2 pts to do it). If you don't mind changing weapons you could keep your str at 10 and do 1d6 KA with a Knife (1/2d6 KA, DC2, Str Min 4). I would still recommend buying Deadly Blow: Sneak Attack (16pts only from behind) which would allow your rogue to do 2d6 KA with a knife (or 1.5 d6 KA with a dagger and 10str).

 

Also my thread here can give you some tools to make sure that your character is actually decent in combat

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

Indeed as others have pointed out, building specific Talents for your character can significantly enhance their performance in combat. The Sneak Attack idea is a good one. What I do is build it like Deadly Blow but base it on a Requires a Skill roll (Stealth) limitation and include the Must approach target unseen limitation as well (though I usually price that at -1/2). +1 or +2 DC bonus should be enough to get your thief's damage high enough to threaten the likes of Firbolg and other nasty though beasts.

 

Also, Martial Arts (if you feel they are appropriate...for a thief a knife fighting MA should be okay. Something learned on the streets for self defense) and Combat Skill Levels go a long way toward making your character perform better. A thief with 2 CSL with Blades, a Fast Strike maneuver (+2 OCV and +1 DC with knife attack) could use these in conjunction with the Sneak Attack Talent and absolutely murder opponents that he takes unawares (which is kind of the point anyway). At +2 DC, the Deadly Blow sneak attack will increase the damage of the blade to 1D6+1, which means the thief's STR will add +1 DC, then another +1 DC from the Fast Strike maneuver, then another +1 DC from the CSL's and still gets to attack at +2 OCV bonus (from Fast Strike) against a Firbolg that is at 1/2 DCV. So your thief is doing 2D6+1K damage which averages 8 Body damage. Coordinate with the party's fighter and that Firbolg doesn't stand a chance!

 

Also if you find that your character has a hard time penetrating the defenses of monster wielding only a knife (and he will), I would suggest another Talent someone else mentioned above. Build another Talent that adds Armor Piercing to your knife damage. I would base it on a Requires Skill Roll (Analyze Weak point) and after fighting the opponent for a couple of phases, make the skill roll and if successful your character will get to attack the opponent at 1/2 Defense. It represents your character targeting weak points in the opponents defenses. In fiction, the rogue type characters usually go for the throat, eyes, ears, armpits, groin etc so it should be in character to posses this type of Talent. If you were playing the 5th edition, I would just suggest Find Weakness, but I heard that went away in the 6th edition

[Matt Holck]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

if damage is limited to doubling,

the character's will seek out bigger weapons

 

I have a whip master character named Troy.

Troy has martial arts and both whip and short sword as additional elements.

I am consider buying him 6 levels in martial arts

to use with his bullwhip (base 2d6 Physical HTH Attack +3" stretching) + 2 DC martial strike

I have no problem with the damage being limited to 8d6

as long I can call shots.

 

The trouble is those levels could be added to my DCV raising it ridiculous levels

Troy should be hard to hit but not impossible

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

Thank goodness for that.

I always hated the idea of a special effects driven system like HERO limiting something like DC of a weapon based on "how it looks." Most campaigns have an upper Damage Class limit. All of mine do. As I tell my players, "with enough STR, Martial Arts Maneuvers, and CSLs, you can be deadly with a butter knife." The campaign DC limit should be the only limiting factor to whatever damage a weapon does. Of course, that is just my opinion on things.

 

I personally like the idea of the "damage cap" on specific weapons based on size and function. I have always allowed ways to bypass the damage cap in my games, but those ways were limited and cost points, so they were rare for the most part. When Deadly Blow was introduced in the 5th edition, I rejoiced because that was something I had already been doing, but now I could do it in others games as well.

However I am also careful of the resistant defenses of the opponents I throw at my players. I try to keep them in the 2-5 rpd/red range unless they are supposed to be though to put down. A Dragon would probably have 12 rPD (even higher rED) but those are about the toughest thing a PC is likely to face in my campaigns.

[Escafarc]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

I'm glad that they made the Doubling rule optional. I've dropped it from my FH game with no ill effects.

[ghost-angel]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

The short answer to this is that the maximum doubling rules are built into the limitations to STR Min and Real Weapon. So' date=' if a character is using a weapon with either of those, the "optional" rules are in effect. It's primarily a Heroic level thing for physical weapons bought for money, not points.[/quote']

 

While those Limitations are a good In Game Reason to use Doubling Damage Optional Rule, I would like to point out that they don't actually do that Mechanically by the Rules themselves. It's still an Optional Rule whether or not you're using STR Min &/or Real Weapon to limit the damage of Weapons.

[Sean Waters]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

I recall a DnD game many years ago where we were fighting some demon or other that required magic weapons to hit. To be honest it was a challenge a bit aboe us - we didn't have magic weap[ons, or none with sufficient bonuses to damage it.

 

The solution we came up with was 'Party Trick Number Six' (A kneels behind subject on all fours, B pushes subject to chest) and dumped the thing off a 400 foot cliff. It probably survived, but we were long gone by the time it got back.

 

I don't know what the resistant PD of a Firbolg is (you may be able to cut it, even if you are not causing it much stun), but it seems to me that either:

 

1. Hopefully there were others in your group who COULD hurt it, which means that your best bet would be to attract its attention, then dodge its attack - thus preventing damage to other party members who could damage it. Direct attack is not the only solution. I would not consider that your character needs re-design, or anything like that - not every problem should be met with overwhelming force.

 

2. You are facing a challenge above your level of ability. No one can hurt this thing. That means either your GM misjudged the encounter OR the GM is sending a message, which is probably either 'there is some cunning way you can defeat this guy (using the environment, as above, or perhaps even social skills) OR 'these things are nasty - fear them and never try to tackle them head on'; it is a hard lesson for some players to learn, but sometimes you will face an obstacle you can't get around. I mean, if the GM puts a stone wall in the scenario, you don't think 'damn, I can't hack through this with my dagger'.

[Ternaugh]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

While those Limitations are a good In Game Reason to use Doubling Damage Optional Rule' date=' I would like to point out that they don't actually do that Mechanically by the Rules themselves. It's still an Optional Rule whether or not you're using STR Min &/or Real Weapon to limit the damage of Weapons.[/quote']

 

Obviously, it's up to each GM to enforce what's appropriate for their campaign. By their definitions on 6e2 199-201, however, those two limitations both include the Doubling Damage Rule. If the limitations are in effect, then the option would be to allow damage greater than double the weapon's "base" damage, and the descriptions go on to further note that the weapon should probably break if it does deal more. Like anything in Hero, the GM is free to ignore or rewrite this, but the assumption is that Doubling Damage is the standard for Heroic weapons, unless the GM rules otherwise.

 

JoeG

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

I recall a DnD game many years ago where we were fighting some demon or other that required magic weapons to hit. To be honest it was a challenge a bit aboe us - we didn't have magic weap[ons, or none with sufficient bonuses to damage it.

 

The solution we came up with was 'Party Trick Number Six' (A kneels behind subject on all fours, B pushes subject to chest) and dumped the thing off a 400 foot cliff. It probably survived, but we were long gone by the time it got back.

 

I don't know what the resistant PD of a Firbolg is (you may be able to cut it, even if you are not causing it much stun), but it seems to me that either:

 

1. Hopefully there were others in your group who COULD hurt it, which means that your best bet would be to attract its attention, then dodge its attack - thus preventing damage to other party members who could damage it. Direct attack is not the only solution. I would not consider that your character needs re-design, or anything like that - not every problem should be met with overwhelming force.

 

2. You are facing a challenge above your level of ability. No one can hurt this thing. That means either your GM misjudged the encounter OR the GM is sending a message, which is probably either 'there is some cunning way you can defeat this guy (using the environment, as above, or perhaps even social skills) OR 'these things are nasty - fear them and never try to tackle them head on'; it is a hard lesson for some players to learn, but sometimes you will face an obstacle you can't get around. I mean, if the GM puts a stone wall in the scenario, you don't think 'damn, I can't hack through this with my dagger'.

 

This.

 

As a GM, I've oftentimes put in very powerful monsters...too powerful for the PC's to handle head-on at their current level of ability. And when the players inevitably ask me why I gave them such a powerful opponent, I answer "you didn't have to fight it head on. You could run. Or momentarily disable it with a spell to escape. You don't have to kill everything you come across". They rarely like that answer.

[djkester]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

This.

 

As a GM, I've oftentimes put in very powerful monsters...too powerful for the PC's to handle head-on at their current level of ability. And when the players inevitably ask me why I gave them such a powerful opponent, I answer "you didn't have to fight it head on. You could run. Or momentarily disable it with a spell to escape. You don't have to kill everything you come across". They rarely like that answer.

 

I agree. One thing I've noted when I employ a more powerful monster or encounter in a campaign is that often I'm the only one who realizes this.

 

So I have recently been including in the game session ways for the party to determine the power of a group.

 

1. I've told the players quite clearly. There will be encounters to tough for your group to take on straight.

2. Where possible I give them a chance to see the monsters/bad guys ahead of time. In action is best.

3. I give them ways to get away or use the scenario to their advantage.

 

But even then:

 

1. They still act like they can kill everything.

2. They think in terms of harder they fight the harder they fall.

3. They always end up going toe to toe.

 

Sooner or later they'll end up dead. But so far by pure luck. A series of critical failures by a couple of monsters. Have left them alive.

 

However, i would not feel bad at all for kiling one of the players given the amount of information and warning they have about how tough a situation is.

 

BTW: in this case it sounds like potentially the GM meant for this monster to be taken down but present a new kind of challenge. I actually think that in this case the tactics employed. Knock down the target and gang up were great. I wonder why the need to increase rogue damage on a monster that obviously isn't very effected by a weapon the size of a dagger.

 

I like this discussion very much though. Rep to all.

[AirborneRob]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

Sooner or later, a group will learn to put two words in the same sentence. Tactical...Withdraw

[Sean Waters]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

Sooner or later' date=' a group [i']will[/i] learn to put two words in the same sentence. Tactical...Withdraw

 

Only if preceded by "We're never going to make a..."

[AirborneRob]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

only if preceded by "we're never going to make a..."

 

lol

[Nolgroth]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

That's funny because yesterday, our group did do the tactical withdrawal. Large undead bear thingie that looked, in character, to be too tough for us to handle. I was assisting the GM and knew just how tough it was, but it made sense to withdraw instead of slug it out. From a purely mechanical view, it should have been moderately tough. From a story/character perspective, it was a giant, undead grizzly thing that was using one of its own minions as a club. So we ran.

[AirborneRob]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

That's funny because yesterday' date=' our group did do the tactical withdrawal. Large undead bear thingie that looked, [i']in character,[/i] to be too tough for us to handle. I was assisting the GM and knew just how tough it was, but it made sense to withdraw instead of slug it out. From a purely mechanical view, it should have been moderately tough. From a story/character perspective, it was a giant, undead grizzly thing that was using one of its own minions as a club. So we ran.

 

Yes, from a character perspective a Grizzley Bear is intimidating.... an undead Grizzley Bear is as close to self defecation as i could see happen

[Ice9]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

The tricky part about running is that it's often easier said than done, especially by the time you figure out the necessity. For instance, if the very powerful creature is a dragon, it probably can move faster than any of the PCs. Unless there's a narrow tunnel or some dense woods nearby, running doesn't help. And even when some PCs are fast enough to escape, the ones in heavy armor may not be.

 

Which brings up the second, and more likely case. Even when the GM provides a good escape route, delaying that escape too long can still ruin it. For instance, the PCs see something, figure they can take it, and charge in. And then it smacks one of them straight to unconsciousness, or immobilizes a few with a spell/ability. At that point, they may want to run, but it would mean abandoning their companions - something many characters may be reluctant to do.

[gojira]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

First the Firbolg has 15PD and 15ED but that is not resistant....The creature does have 6PD and 6ED bought with the "Resistant" advantage...The firbolg will get his 15pd vs the Stun of your attack.

 

I thought total defense counted against the Stun of a Killing Attack? That means the stun done by the dagger would have to exceed 15+6 = 21 defense before the Firbolg took stun from the attack?

 

Maybe I'm reading the Firbolg's entry wrong....

[Sean Waters]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

The tricky part about running is that it's often easier said than done, especially by the time you figure out the necessity. For instance, if the very powerful creature is a dragon, it probably can move faster than any of the PCs. Unless there's a narrow tunnel or some dense woods nearby, running doesn't help. And even when some PCs are fast enough to escape, the ones in heavy armor may not be.

 

Which brings up the second, and more likely case. Even when the GM provides a good escape route, delaying that escape too long can still ruin it. For instance, the PCs see something, figure they can take it, and charge in. And then it smacks one of them straight to unconsciousness, or immobilizes a few with a spell/ability. At that point, they may want to run, but it would mean abandoning their companions - something many characters may be reluctant to do.

 

I think that is where the art of the GM comes in: powerful NPCs can certainly kill characters, but there are other options: they could be pounded unconscious and left for dead - or robbed - that is always good for a laugh. They could be captured and kept for food or information - and have to engineer an escape. The GM could telegraph the power of the creature by - as they see it - having something they DO consider a real threat attack it and finish it with contemptuous ease.

 

Being beaten occasionally is good for the characters and the players. If one of the PCs, seeing defeat is immanent, runs and later returns to resuce the rest then they are a hero - the gung-ho attitude that tends to develop if the PCs always win every battle can be damaging to a game, as victory gains a feeling of inevitability and thus devalues the experience.

 

Back to the thief - I'm assuming htis is a game where the use of targeting hit locations is not allowed?

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

I thought total defense counted against the Stun of a Killing Attack? That means the stun done by the dagger would have to exceed 15+6 = 21 defense before the Firbolg took stun from the attack?

 

Maybe I'm reading the Firbolg's entry wrong....

 

You are. It has 15 PD, of which 6 is Resistant. The BODY of a KA goes against 6, and the STUN against 15.

[Shinobi Killfis]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

Just curious in this game how is magic bought? If it is with a multipower I'd ask if you can buy a sneaky bastard multipower or something, maybe make it requires a skill roll(stealth). You could boost damage with flat out buying killing attack with a focus common knife, needs to be attacked from behind or whatever other limitations. Start throwing in to the pool drains to movement for hamstring attacks, flashes(dust in the eyes), maybe some movement or invisibility etc. On a more basic level picking up a martial art would help a bit.

[gojira]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

Ah, yes, I think you're are right. The point costs don't work out otherwise. Well, I guess I count as an experienced GM.

[gojira]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

Just curious in this game how is magic bought?

 

Normally, according to the genre book. If you're not modifying the rules, then sure a multipower would work. Most fantasy books make magic cheaper to buy (like one-third cost, or even 1 point per spell) to balance it with the free equipment all the fighter types get. It kinda depends what you want to do with your campaign.

 

If it is with a multipower I'd ask if you can buy a sneaky bastard multipower or something, maybe make it requires a skill roll(stealth).

 

Couldn't Bilbo Baggins turn invisible? And I seem to remember the Grey Mouser having some skill at spell casting. I think this works fine, personally.

 

You could boost damage with flat out buying killing attack with a focus common knife, needs to be attacked from behind or whatever other limitations. Start throwing in to the pool drains to movement for hamstring attacks, flashes(dust in the eyes), maybe some movement or invisibility etc. On a more basic level picking up a martial art would help a bit.

 

 

Any of these would work fine, imo, for "special attacks" that don't require magic at all. Or you could call them spells and have a thief that also casts. Either works. However, definitely check with the GM, he or she may have different ideas.

[MyChampionsHero]

Re: My thief can't hit a firbolg?

 

Chances is good for a thief to hit on a sneak attack roll, but the question is (if i read correctly) can your thief do enough damage to hurt or kill the Firbolg, here is some option (in my viewpoint) to consider:

 

1.) +3-5 OCV SL when attacking from behind (thieves is specially train for this maneuver, even more then the game bonus's for non thief class's)

 

2.) +1D6 PD HKA (+2D6 for more skilled thieves), (thieves special back attack), (must successfully stealth behind target to use), (armor piercing - twisting the dagger to move between armor links), (penetration - special skill - surprise attack combined with twisting maneuver), (must use dagger size weapon - preventing the thief from using just any one handed edge weapon for this maneuver).

 

3.) Find Weakness (only usable in stealth) (only usable with dagger size edge weapon)

 

this is referred to the "thieves Assassination maneuver" hope this helps, this maneuver above is what i used when playing a AD&D thief in Champion setting, it helped to make my character a little more competitive,

there is much more to thieves abilities, just use your imagination with the game rules to apply them to your character.