Can you move backward?

[GAZZA]

Assuming sfx allow, can you move backwards in Hero? Is there a penalty to your movement rate if you do?

 

"Why would you want to?" Well, the case in point is a vehicle that has weapons with restricted arc of fire. You'd like to move away from your current HTH target, but keep facing him as you do so. You have Flight, but it has a Turn Mode, so turning around, moving away, and then turning back again is going to consume some distance with turning.

 

Without a Turn Mode, the question doesn't come up (you just reverse your facing, move, and then reverse it back again) - but can you go backwards if you do have a Turn Mode?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Can you move backward?

 

Yes, SFX permitting, I would say moving backwards is perfectly legitimate.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Can you move backward?

 

I would say you could move backwards regardless of Turn Mode. Now if you have a Stall Speed, there is an implication that you need to maintain some sort of forward movement. In that case I would disallow moving backwards.

 

As to whether there is a penalty to movement speed, I would say that it depends entirely on the campaign rules and GM discretion. For example, walking backwards is generally slower than walking forward. I might limit the backward walking speed to a base of 3/4 the forward walking speed and disallow NCM. Each situation is different though, so make the judgment call as you feel is needed.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Can you move backward?

 

'Facing' is irrelevant in Hero, so (by the rules) I'd say that you can move forward, backward, sideways, up or down (movement powers and terrain allowing) with no restriction or movement penalty. Of course you can not necessarily see where you are going, and a GM could easily impose movement penalties, and, possibly penalties to any PRE attack you try...

 

[Naanomi]

Re: Can you move backward?

 

I agree, (although moving Up comes with gravity penalties) that facing while moving doesn't intrinsically matter much. However, unless you have some 360 senses, the risk of flying into things (buildings, jumping bricks) seems to be something to conciser.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Can you move backward?

 

Hmm. However, we don't really want normal cars that drive sideways (though most ground vehicles have some form of reverse). Should that be worth an extra Limitation on their Running, or is it just a SFX wash?

[GAZZA]

Re: Can you move backward?

 

The more I think about this, the less sure I am that it should be allowed.

 

I don't believe that facing is entirely irrelevant in Hero. If it was, then there wouldn't be limitations for firing arcs on vehicle weapons, yes? In addition senses have distinct arcs as well. I believe that facing does exist in Hero, with the following caveats:

 

• You don't have a "back", or at least attacking from behind doesn't give any penalty to your DCV. This is actually questionable, as there is a listed DCV modifier for attacking from behind, but I think that's supposed to imply surprise.
  
• If have no Turn Mode, as most characters don't with Running, you can make as many turns as you like whenever you like which essentially makes your facing irrelevant as far as movement goes.
  

 

However, characters have 120 degree Sight by default, so the implication that you still are regarded as facing a particular direction is still there.

 

Anyway, that's a side note. The thing is that it occurs to me if you allow moving backwards - at least without penalty - then you're implicitly allowing a "quick reverse" of speed on movement modes that would otherwise require a lot of movement to turn around. On the other hand it's obviously not very realistic to say that (eg) a car can't go backwards, or that you can't walk backwards, or whatever. I think perhaps apply the gravity penalty if you are travelling "backwards" would work (ie 2m for every 1m movement). If you want to eliminate that, then the simplest solution is to buy No Turn Mode for your movement and define it as "moving backwards without penalty".

 

Does that seem reasonable?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Can you move backward?

 

I wouldn't say it's irrelevant, but there's nothing that explicitly correlates it to heading (direction of travel). As Sean's video shows, there are more issues than just perception, at least for realistic humans (not that we necessarily have to restrict ourselves to that case, but it's usually a good point from which to start). We can run pretty quickly backwards (or sideways for that matter), but our bodies aren't mechanically built to be able to do it at full speed (sprinting). Our knee, ankle, and toe joints just aren't setup for it.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Can you move backward?

 

The more I think about this, the less sure I am that it should be allowed.

 

I don't believe that facing is entirely irrelevant in Hero. If it was, then there wouldn't be limitations for firing arcs on vehicle weapons, yes? In addition senses have distinct arcs as well. I believe that facing does exist in Hero, with the following caveats:

 

• You don't have a "back", or at least attacking from behind doesn't give any penalty to your DCV. This is actually questionable, as there is a listed DCV modifier for attacking from behind, but I think that's supposed to imply surprise.
  
• If have no Turn Mode, as most characters don't with Running, you can make as many turns as you like whenever you like which essentially makes your facing irrelevant as far as movement goes.
  

However, characters have 120 degree Sight by default, so the implication that you still are regarded as facing a particular direction is still there.

 

Anyway, that's a side note. The thing is that it occurs to me if you allow moving backwards - at least without penalty - then you're implicitly allowing a "quick reverse" of speed on movement modes that would otherwise require a lot of movement to turn around. On the other hand it's obviously not very realistic to say that (eg) a car can't go backwards, or that you can't walk backwards, or whatever. I think perhaps apply the gravity penalty if you are travelling "backwards" would work (ie 2m for every 1m movement). If you want to eliminate that, then the simplest solution is to buy No Turn Mode for your movement and define it as "moving backwards without penalty".

 

Does that seem reasonable?

 

In 5E there was an issue of velocity. If you are going full speed it took 1" (2 meters) for ever 5" (10 meters) of velocity you had to stop. Likewise you gained velocity at the same rate, so you couldn't do a movethrough against someone one hex away with all 20" of velocity. There were even advantages specifically for changing how you increased/decreased velocity. Did 6E do away with all that? If not, than the simple turn around you worry about isn't possible since you would have to keep going forward until you were able to slow to 0 velocity and than start building up speed the other direction.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Can you move backward?

 

Did 6E do away with all that? If not' date=' than the simple turn around you worry about isn't possible since you would have to keep going forward until you were able to slow to 0 velocity and than start building up speed the other direction.[/quote']

Nope. All of that was retained for 6E so, as you say, I don't think the idea of reverse adds any problems.

[dmjalund]

Re: Can you move backward?

 

Did 6E do away with all that? If not' date=' than the simple turn around you worry about isn't possible since you would have to keep going forward until you were able to slow to 0 velocity and than start building up speed the other direction.[/quote']still there, but you can take advantages that bypass this.

[GAZZA]

Re: Can you move backward?

 

In 5E there was an issue of velocity. If you are going full speed it took 1" (2 meters) for ever 5" (10 meters) of velocity you had to stop. Likewise you gained velocity at the same rate' date=' so you couldn't do a movethrough against someone one hex away with all 20" of velocity. There were even advantages specifically for changing how you increased/decreased velocity. Did 6E do away with all that? If not, than the simple turn around you worry about isn't possible since you would have to keep going forward until you were able to slow to 0 velocity and than start building up speed the other direction.[/quote']

As the other guys pointed out it's still there. But I disagree that it solves anything.

 

Let's say I have Flight 60m, I'm currently hovering and facing North, I want to be flying South, and it's my phase. I have two options, one canonical:

1. I turn three times on the spot and can then begin to accelerate. But now I am facing the opposite direction, and cannot fire any front facing weapons at their original target. In addition, I can make only three more 60 degree turns this phase.
   
2. I declare that I'm going backwards. I back up 30m from my current spot (as a half move), and then fire my front facing weapons with the advantage of distance. Or I can make 6 turns during a 60m backward movement if I like.
   

 

Clearly case 2, if allowed, adds a feature to turn moded movement that wasn't there before. As far as the "quick turnaround" is concerned, let's say I'm flying 60m/phase North and I want to be flying South. There are two ways to achieve that - do a 180 degree turn over three "hex sides" of 12m each (which works, but leaves me on a different line, which can be important in some cases) or slow down to a hover in the first phase. In the latter case, if you are allowed to go backwards, then the next phase you can move 60m South and make 6 turns along the way, whereas if you are not, you have to use up 3 turns to face South and can only make another 3 turns.

 

So allowing you to go backwards does add a certain amount of utility that makes the idea of whether or not to penalise such movement in some way at least worth some consideration. If you don't like the idea that it would cost more movement to travel the same distance going backwards, then perhaps we can simply treat backwards movement as non-combat movement for the sake of DCV and OCV modifiers (which seems too harsh to me, I admit).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Can you move backward?

 

Attack powers automatically have a point of origin. This could also be applied to movement powers - if you move backwards, you're legs aren't built for it, so you suffer some movement penalties. We can apply the same default to other movement powers. If you want to move forward, backward or sideways without penalty, you buy the same +1/4 "indirect" advantage that allows an attack power to use any point of origin.

[brionl]

Re: Can you move backward?

 

I'm too lazy to look it up right now, but isn't there a section about this in the vehicle rules? Backing up is at half speed. Can't move sideways with any power that has a turn mode, unless you buy an advantage, etc.

[GAZZA]

Re: Can you move backward?

 

Couldn't find anything like that, which is why I bring it up.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Can you move backward?

 

As the other guys pointed out it's still there. But I disagree that it solves anything.

 

Let's say I have Flight 60m, I'm currently hovering and facing North, I want to be flying South, and it's my phase. I have two options, one canonical:

1. I turn three times on the spot and can then begin to accelerate. But now I am facing the opposite direction, and cannot fire any front facing weapons at their original target. In addition, I can make only three more 60 degree turns this phase.
   
2. I declare that I'm going backwards. I back up 30m from my current spot (as a half move), and then fire my front facing weapons with the advantage of distance. Or I can make 6 turns during a 60m backward movement if I like.
   

 

Clearly case 2, if allowed, adds a feature to turn moded movement that wasn't there before. As far as the "quick turnaround" is concerned, let's say I'm flying 60m/phase North and I want to be flying South. There are two ways to achieve that - do a 180 degree turn over three "hex sides" of 12m each (which works, but leaves me on a different line, which can be important in some cases) or slow down to a hover in the first phase. In the latter case, if you are allowed to go backwards, then the next phase you can move 60m South and make 6 turns along the way, whereas if you are not, you have to use up 3 turns to face South and can only make another 3 turns.

 

So allowing you to go backwards does add a certain amount of utility that makes the idea of whether or not to penalise such movement in some way at least worth some consideration. If you don't like the idea that it would cost more movement to travel the same distance going backwards, then perhaps we can simply treat backwards movement as non-combat movement for the sake of DCV and OCV modifiers (which seems too harsh to me, I admit).

I would argue that the utility of backwards movement is countered by the fact that you may fly into something or someone possibly hurting yourself or others, unless you have enhanced senses to see behind you, in which case you paid for the senses so it's all good.

[GAZZA]

Re: Can you move backward?

 

From a theoretical perspective I'd agree with you, but there are practical concerns. If you're using miniatures (or Gametable, as we do), then the player can see everything behind him. If you're not, then you're down to either GM fiat or a random roll as to whether or not he runs into something. And cars (for example) realistically can't drive as fast backwards as they can forwards; they're not geared for it. Probably neither are humans able to run backwards as fast as they can run forwards, etc.

 

Therefore from a practical perspective I think I've just about talked myself into allowing it at the 2m=1m rate. YMMV of course; it's been good to see everyone's input.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Can you move backward?

 

Attack powers automatically have a point of origin. This could also be applied to movement powers - if you move backwards' date=' you're legs aren't built for it, so you suffer some movement penalties. We can apply the same default to other movement powers. If you want to move forward, backward or sideways without penalty, you buy the same +1/4 "indirect" advantage that allows an attack power to use any point of origin.[/quote']

Good idea! I'd rep if I could. I like it.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Can you move backward?

 

So allowing you to go backwards does add a certain amount of utility that makes the idea of whether or not to penalise such movement in some way at least worth some consideration. If you don't like the idea that it would cost more movement to travel the same distance going backwards' date=' then perhaps we can simply treat backwards movement as non-combat movement for the sake of DCV and OCV modifiers (which seems too harsh to me, I admit).[/quote']

I never claimed the ability to separate facing from heading doesn't have some benefit. However, it certainly doesn't negate Turn Modes or add significant problems to the system. There are some corner cases where you can take advantage of it, but no major overall imbalance. Of course, it does raise the question of how quickly you can change facing. Personally I'd make it by default the same rate you can change heading (for whatever Mode of Movement you are using), and the two are independent (so you could start in reverse and either go around a bend maintaining reverse, or you could be rotating into your turn so you wind up going forward at the end of the maneuver). Of course, depending on the circumstances and complexity of the maneuver a skill roll of some sort (Combat Driving, Piloting, Riding, Dex) might be called for to pull off exactly what you are trying to accomplish in tense/critical situations.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Can you move backward?

 

Kirk: "Bootlegger Reverse, Mr. Sulu!"

 

(From Murphy's Rules.)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Can you move backward in time?

 

can.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Can you move backward in time?

 

I

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Can you move backward in time?

 

Yes

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Can you move backward in time?

 

can.

 

I

 

Yes

 

Timestamps.